Warfare & Tactics

For the longest time, I have been a valiant advocate that EWAR in eve is nicely balanced as it is, and that an ECM boat doesn't force-multiply any more than any other type of ship on the battlefield.

However, a few days ago I began training for a Tengu, and naturally decided to see what else that would let me fly. Cerberus? Nah, not the best solo ship. Eagle? Lolno. Falcon? Again, not the best solo ship.

Then I happened upon the Rook. Is it possible to get a good solo fit for one of these? I thought.

Anyway, the result of my experimentation is of little importance. What is important is the utterly screwed up maths I happened upon while EFT warrioring.

That result? Take a look at these numbers.

Using the following Rook fit:

[Rook, New Setup 2]
Signal Distortion Amplifier II
Signal Distortion Amplifier II
Signal Distortion Amplifier II

ECM - Phase Inverter II
ECM - Phase Inverter II
ECM - Phase Inverter II
ECM - Phase Inverter II
ECM - Phase Inverter II
Large Shield Extender II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile

Medium Particle Dispersion Projector I
Medium Particle Dispersion Augmentor I


(Yes, I'm well aware that a real Rook will fit race specific jammers and not Minmatar ones, and that most Rooks have a bit more tank, and scourge missiles, but you get the picture. I'm just lazy when it comes to changing EFT.)

Now let's suppose Mr. Rook here ends up, for whatever reason fighting against a blob, as happens so often in today's nullsec landscape.

A standard nanocane - with a ladar strength of 16 - has a 91.4% chance of being jammed... by a single phase inverter. If the Rook is in an urgent situation, it can overheat its phase inverter, taking jam strength of a single ecm to 16.1. That Hurricane will not get a lock on anything, ever, from a single racial ECM. Effectively, this Rook is able to sure fire 100% jam five Hurricanes, if only until its jammers overheat and break. Of course, even without heat, a 91% chance is still very, very good.

Okay. So let's suppose that the poor five nanocanes wisen up to this tactic, and drop one of their nanos for a lowslot LADAR backup array. This pushes their sensor strength up to 23.7.

A single unheated phase inverter will still jam that nanocane a good 61% of the time. Two phase inverters? Forget it, because poor nanocane is now being jammed around 85% of the time, more than enough to greatly hamper his effectiveness in a fight. And the Rook still has three jammers leftover, AFTER putting the nanocane out of the action.

So, now we'll suppose that the Hurricanes are getting frustrated, to the point where they rework their entire tanking style to counter this. They are now armor'canes, fitting midslot ECCM. Let's see what happens:

One phase inverter II vs. 31.4 sensor strength: 46.9% chance of being jammed.

Not too shabby, really. Owait. That's just one jammer. Fit two jammers and that chance has shot back up to ~70%. Two heated jammers? 76%. Yes, this Rook can keep this Hurricane jammed out 3/4ths of the time, and still have three jammers leftover for other deeds. If the Hurricane heats his ECCM, things get a little better, but he'll still be locked out for well over 60% of the time.

So now he's decided to gimp any ewar capabilities he ever had, by fitting a second ECCM. This Hurricane does not want to get jammed.

Except that even while gimping himself so much, two jammers still have a ~50% chance of jamming him, effectively cutting his DPS in half in a fleet fight. With two ECCM. If he heats his ECCM, this chance goes to below 40... But of course, Rook still has another 3 jammers up his sleeve.

Against five Phase Inverter jammers, with dual overheated ECCM... the Hurricane will still only have a lock 35% of the time.

That's right, you just gimped your fit to counter ECM, only to actually get to shoot something a third of the time.

So now is the time when you argue that I'm being unfair by using Hurricanes, the lowest sensor-strength BC. Alright, let's take a look at some other ships:

A drake against a single Caldari racial ECM gets jammed 75% of the time, or 85% of the time with heat. So let's suppose the Drake gimps its fit by putting on a lowslot ECM, causing it to lose a BCU and a good portion of DPS. It still gets jammed out half the time by an unheated ECM, or >75% of the time by two ECMs. TWO.

Or what about a Raven? That has a pretty big sensor strength, being a Caldari BS and everything.

Nope - 73% jam chance by a heated ecm, 65% by an unheated ECM. Add in multiple ECM, and even it won't be targeting anything, even if it fits some ECCM of its own.

Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

A Curse may mess with a Hurricane, but it won't have a 100% chance of completely locking it out of the fight - a TD will cut down the Hurricane's falloff by 50% at most, maybe. Even with two TD's, the Hurricane will still be able to do things like pointing, webbing, assigning drones, and shooting BS that are at close range.

A scimitar may boost a ship's tank, but it won't be boosting it to the point of allowing it to tank 5 more Hurricane's worth of DPS, unlike a Rook which can permajam 5 Hurricanes.

TL;DR: I feel ECM is overpowered in comparison to other force multipliers.

/Walloftext
/Flamesuit
/Discuss

Yeah, I was pretty near the character limit on this one.

Rooks are known for being quite capable in solo PvP, as well as being very nice in small gangs for the very reasons you mention. But using a specialty ship max fit for it's specialty and then saying that the specilaty is OP is far from a fair way to assess OPness.

Besides ECCM and signal augmentors, there are a couple other ways to deal with ECM. Drones make a Rook **** its pants. Once a flight of them get assigned, it MUST run away or die. No EHP tank means it simply can't stick around. A Curse can neut a Rook dry in one go, rendering its ECM useless. An Arazu or Lachesis can damp its range so that it must close to within a very uncomfortable distance. Also, blob. ECM doesn't scale very well unlike Target painters, which increase the effective dps of every ship in your fleet.

ECM ships are really useful in small engagements or where some point disruption would do the most good (logi chains). But they have their vulnerabilities, just like most other ships. So not OP.

This guy speaks the truth. However, in that situation with drones, if you flew my Falcon that uses smartbombs in the highs, I could probably take out all those drones before they ate through my 1600mm RT plate. BUT, as soon as ONE Drake lands on grid, I'm toast with your all minny jammer setup.

Look at my battleclinic record, I am a maxxed skilled Falcon pilot boosted by a max skilled, mindlinked Proteus pilot. My fit of jammers carries an assortment of racial jammers. If 5 canes show up, I run out of minny jammers and I'm dead or I flee.

Do you actually PvP in a falcon? Seriously, because you are talking like it is coming out your rear section.

Found the main problem in your post. The real combat situations are much different from what you can see in EFT.

Flying ECM boats is like flying a curse.

You instantly become the Primary Target.

A good/great ECM pilot will help shut down a fleet but without Logi support don't expect to be on the field for a long time.

ECM fighting groups smaller then 5 has an advantage, but once you cannot Jam all the ships you are not going to survive, and if your unlucky and they get their drones on you your dead unless you have a smart bomb on board.

ECM is fine, yes it can be a force multiplier in smaller groups but as we know in EVE its the +1 scenario which screws you over

implying that people actually fit damps on Arazus

or target painters on rapiers

Relying on EFT is terrible and your arguments are terrible

Just wondering what the falloff for a remote sensor dampener is?

I'm...................................................................................................................surr................................................................ounded.........................................................................................................by..............................................................Fal...........................................................................................con...............................................................................................alts.........................................................too.................................................................................................jammed...............................................................................................................to............................................................................post