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Cost of Hubris: Polarization of Alignment

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Adreena Madeveda
Sebiestor Tribe
#41 - 2012-12-26 04:47:59 UTC
Saede Riordan wrote:


The problem with this is that is a bit of a flawed strategy, if you recruit people under the pretense of being helpful good guys, standing up for the poor folks on the rim, they're not going to stick around when the Cartel starts showing their true colours, just look at Saede, sure she's an outlier in that she has the ability to leave easily, but if you recruit a whole bunch of decent people into your criminal organisation, either there will be major dissent and upheavals within the ranks, and things like forced internal purges (which have a tendency to make people to not want to join in the first place) or the organisation starts to be less 'evil'. I'm not asking for any of the factions to be good people, and in fact I don't think any of the factions should be good people at all, but I want there to be pros and cons to every political alignment. Being Sansha, or blood raider, or Guristas or Angel should not automatically damn you for those affiliations. Sure, you might still be judged harshly for them, but it seems like there's no redeeming qualities at all to half of them. Even the mafia provides stability to 'their' communities. Curse is an entire region, filled with people living their lives, who see the cartel as their government, not as evil space mobsters who kick cities and bomb puppies from orbit.

Its okay for the cartel to be seen by most people as the bad guys. Its even okay for them to commit the major atrocities. But in order to get people within the cartel to be okay with the sort of atrocities that the Cartel is apparently casually okay with committing, you need to really and truly have them to loyal to your cause. That's the sort of unwavering loyalty you usually only get from strong cultural dedication (and the cartel has no prevailing culture) or religion (which they don't have either). People you recruit because they have no other options tend to bolt and go make their own way at the first opportunity. The cartel would have trouble with things like crewing their ships, since the crews would likely just take their ships and go as soon as they could get away with it. The Cartel is a huge, huge space empire, controlling millions of ships across vast swaths of space, they cannot all be bad irredeemable people. There have to be redeeming qualities in order for them to exist in the manner they do. A small mafia gang or crime syndicate in a single city might get away with it, but not a multiregional empire with possibly upwards of billions of people loyal to them.


Saede, here's an attempt to rationalize :

So, the Cartel is in some systems the de facto administrator and peacekeeper, and in others a bunch of ruffians and thugs. I think it's safe to assume that the Cartel needs both down-to-earth, reliable persons to handle the dayly life on a planet they control, and amoral BAMFs able to cope with more unsavory business.

The beauty of the thing is, this two mindsets don't need to be in the same person.

From the Cartel point of view, it's just a matter of selecting what kind of job is more suited to what kind of person. There may be casting errors, Saede is an example, but nothing they can't handle. The administrators and peacekeepers working for the Cartel don't need to play the good & respectable guys : they probably are. And they don't need to know that the Cartel right hand is dripping with blood.

...................\o\ /o/...................
Synthetic Cultist
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#42 - 2012-12-26 13:17:04 UTC
The systems where the Cartel supposedly protects the populace from "pirates", are quite possibly just a protection racket.

Some pirate bands may exist in the lowsec areas, and further abroad, but many of them may just be tools, to make the Cartel look good.

Example. Solar system where the Republic does not have strong presence. Supply ships get attacked by pirate bands! Oh no! Then someone comes along and says "The Republic Fleet is far, far away. Now, I happen to represent a group of people that could deal with your pirate problem. If it's worth our while. Is it worth our while? It's a real nice planet you have here. Would be a shame if something happened to it".

And, surprise, the cartel people are able to "deal with" the pirate "problem". Because the pirate ships are theirs, or their associates.

Synthia 1, Empress of Kaztropol.

It is Written.
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#43 - 2012-12-26 13:18:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Seriphyn Inhonores
I find it a bit odd that people are lamenting about anti-Caldari bias in the PF, and pro-Gallente bias being around.

I always thought it was the opposite lol, and still do, even with the new articles (we get 'Caille hipsters' in 'Edimmu Warfighters' for example, yeesh)

It just seems like another case of having our own interpretations of the factions that is at the end of the day our interpretation and not 'reality' (even if reality is down to interpretation).

For example, I always thought the Federation was one giant space democracy at every level. But in actuality it doesn't seem that different from the Amarr Empire, where member states (instead of holders) are trying to one-up each other without any concern for one another because of the relative lack of any shared commonalities and universal values that can't seem to remain consistent administration to administration. That's terrible. No wonder the Fed are so impotent against invasion when they're not even cohesive or solvent.

Meanwhile, I know at least one person who's read it as their perfect libertarian structure instead, where I've read it as a system that may (in theory) have safeguards against tyranny but actually doesn't. It's all down to how you read it, just like RL.

I still see Gallente bias in stuff like the description of the Algos, which boils down to 'just in case we gotta retreat lol', whereas Caldari is all 'badass strength in numbers'. Dex Nederland pointed out elsewhere that if you read beneath the surface (as CCP Falcon has pointed out) the 'retreat' thing means they put a value on the lives of their personnel. Fair enough. Still though, Gallente have always been written with a bit of satire, whereas Caldari are taken very seriously.

I'm not trying to say there is actually any bias or anything, but *I* always thought it was Caldari Mary-Sues (absolutely anyone can reach the top? really? this is EVE, it's dystopic) not the Gallente. So, YMMV, but if two players are complaining about bias not regarding the same faction, there probably isn't any.

edit: also i don't think 'meritocracy' means 'special snowflakes get ahead'. China is a meritocracy, but that doesn't mean a white man can end up as governor of a province. same way EU is supposed to be equal but is obviously biased towards two western European nations in particular. buying IC propaganda OOCly is bad.
Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
The Fourth District
#44 - 2012-12-26 18:51:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Dex Nederland
I hope you are enjoying the discussion. I think it is useful for us to provide our perspective to you all as you direct the sculpting of the world.

CCP Falcon wrote:

This was just to give example. It easy to see by common logic. Lets look at the facts :

The Federation is known to be very liberal in terms of how things are run, there's a mish-mash of all kinds of cultures. Now, we're told that because of this there's a strong demand for narcotics. Look at the social problems this creates :

1. Organized crime.
2. Junkies who resort to petty crime/the welfare state to keep up their habit.
3. Drug pushers/enforcers.
4. Potential for corrupt officials/police who're being bribed to turn a blind eye.

All of that comes from the imagination. Why? Because you're given one piece of information: "There's a high demand for drugs in the Federation, and there's a booster culture". This isn't "deep down below the surface". This is looking at the information that you do have and making reasonable and educated assumptions based on proven fact from real world demographics.


On a different forum, some of us have discussed the "danger" of extrapolating details based on real world demographics.

As Seriphyn pointed out, many of us operated as if the Federation was a single super-democracy for many years. Such an assumption set bounds on what the Federation looked like and meant that when we saw it behave a certain way, we were dumbfounded.

While the interpretation you provided above of the single data point makes sense (especially in combination with the Serpentis organization); it is not unreasonable to assume that the Federation has a rampant narcotics problem.

However, a counter interpretation might be that the large swathes of the Federation do not have a criminal narcotics problem, but have structures to manage the drug market (and associated taxation), much as the real world deals with alcohol or tabacco (and pot in Colorado and Washington). There may be worlds/stations where high-grade narcotics, hallucinogens, are produced, sold, and exported. The business may have strict government oversight, points of sale, etc. The "pusher" is the local advertising company (a Impetus subsidiary?) and the local police are paid with taxes from the sales of the drugs and do not have to turn a blind-eye to the legal business. (Note: more on this later)

The Serpentis is illegal, not because they produce and sell drugs, but that they produce and sell drugs without government oversight, fees, and taxation (real world equivalent - moonshiners). There are enough instances of other corporations leaving the Federation that this interpretation does not seem entirely outlandish (to me).

So, that one piece of information can lead to many conclusions, which can be radically different.

There are parts of New Eden where the criminal/outlaw organizations are the law. Venal is largely controlled by the Guristas. An interpetation of government is a "legitimate" protection racket (pay your taxes and do what we say or we will destroy your business and send you to prison)! A corrupt, self-serving government might even be seen as worse than a efficient, profit seeking criminal organization. (The efficient, profit seeking organization is criminalized because it is going around the corrupt, self-serving government.)

Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
The Fourth District
#45 - 2012-12-26 18:57:08 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Vikarion wrote:
And, this doesn't do anything for the way CCP and its writers have turned the State into an analogue of Na-zi Germany. The Gallente Federation may be a wasteland, deep deep down (so deep that your average RPer never finds it), but the Caldari State does look like a wasteland, right now. Ambiguous fiction is all well and good, but the Caldari fiction isn't ambiguous at all - the Caldari are bad, incompetent, and stupid.

And this isn't just my view, this is the view of most Caldari RPers I know. I can put you in touch with others, if you like, or ask them to post here.


Wrong, the Caldari are none of those things, at all.

That's entirely player interpretation because people are unhappy with the way the State isbeing portrayed at present. The fact of the matter is that the State was politically stagnant, there was no forward progress, and the hardcore Patriots were sick of the same old crap.

They took Malkalen and played it to their own advantage as a springboard to further their own extremist goals and justify a "counter" attack against the Federation. Just like Germany during the "unpleasentness" the people aren't the problem. Very few people actually knew about the vast majority of the terrible stuff that was going on back then. The same principle applies to the State. The extremist Administration is the problem.


The thing is, the post-TEA situation update talks about the Practicals being the most supportive of Heth. The Patriots, while they supportive of the actions the Heth and the CPD took, they have a black eye for not doing it themselves.

In addition, the is the perception of incompetence amoung the Caldari elite; they can't effectively run their corporate fiefdoms and build a successful economy apparently (the pirate Factions are apparently more successful). It might be argued that even Ishukone's overall (and continuing) success is founded upon a gift from the Jove (capsule) and a device first designed to support the Khanid slave-based economy (TCMC).

For the bittervet Caldari RP community the idea that there is a strong Administration (and populist at that) is itself an issue. For some of us, the framework of the State was not "State first!" but family/company -> corporation -> State. "What is good for LDIS is good for Lai Dai is good for the State." Nevermind that what is good for LDIS/Lai Dai is in opposition to what is good for I-RED/Ishukone, we will work that out in backrooms/in space.

Our interpetration seems to be marginalized in the fiction (more and more).
CCP Falcon wrote:
Vikarion wrote:
But, here's the thing: Amarr and Caldari RPers can't get anyone to join them anymore, because no one wants to RP Religious fanatics or Na-zis


I still see a lot of Caldari liberal and practical Corporations that are doing just fine, and aren't folding because no one will join. What you need to remember is that just because the Administration is doing one thing, it doesn't mean that you have to blindly follow the Faction.

Did Ishukone blindly follow Heth? Not at all. Are the people of the Federation blindly following Mentas Blaque and his pack of fascist hawks? Not at all in the slightest.

Lets look at player corporations. Are Republic Loyalist Corporations beating the war drum alongside Shakor? Not at all. Are the vast majority of the Amarr Loyalist corporations screaming loyalty to Sarum? No, a lot of them are questioning the legitimacy of her claim to the throne, or are quietly waiting to see an opportunity to see her ousted.

...

Sometimes there are times when the people don't agree with the Administration. This has happened throughout history, and in the end it forces change. Just because the State has taken a turn politically into something your character might not personally agree with, it doesn't mean that you have to get all bent out of shape over it.

Being able to adapt and create a story out of it is the fun part of the situation that a very deep political shift brings.


Given that the community has no idea when the events in Templar One occur and if the associated news items in it will occur, at present Ishukone is for the most part following Heth and the CPD. This may change once the events of Templar One come to light, but then how the various stations in the State are dealt with becomes a question. The events of Templar One have the possibility of triggering a State civil war (if the information I read elsewhere is accurate).

I don't think Vikarion is worried about those of us who have been playing Caldari for a long time and our actions, he is worried about retaining interested individuals and attracting new blood to the faction. Some of us have attempted to portray the Patriots and Provist as distinict identities, but the straightforward connection of dots makes them equivalent.

When a new player decides to pick a faction, I would think Eve would want to avoid the Alliance or Horde question (good or evil). There is a perception that in the drive to Factional Warfare, there was a push towards that question being presented.

Additional, as a player progresses and interacts with the background, the flaws of the CONCORD members can begin to bleed through in the missions they run and they are presented with another choice - support the corrupt/powers that brought them into this world, join a criminal/outlaw/frontier syndicate that does not report to CONCORD, or strike out on their own.

In the case of say the Republic, a player starts off working for them, finds they do not live up to their propaganda and can choose to support the Thukkers or Cartel (or joining the capsuleer fiefdoms). Such a choice represents different alternatives, one is a society unwilling to be part of the society, but not in opposition to it and the other preys upon the society for its own benefit.

Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Vikarion
Doomheim
#46 - 2012-12-27 01:16:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Vikarion
First, I don't believe that Falcon's post really answered my problems. His answer was essentially to "well, you have a problem with how the State is portrayed, so RP differently". My problem with the State IS how it is portrayed. And while you can say that the Caldari aren't portrayed as evil and incompetent, I gave a LOT of PF examples, none of which were responded to. So let's do a list.

1. The Caldari were backward primitives who were uplifted technologically by a superior Gallente civilization (Gallente History: Nascent era.)

2. The Caldari were a barbaric and violent civilization that contained many fanatics, which the Gallente enlightened with their superior culture (Gallente History: Nascent Era)

3. The remaining Caldari fanatics located themselves in the Megacorporations, which became a refuge for them. (Gallente History: Nascent Era)

4. The Caldari Megacorporations founded the colonies as a way to exist outside of Gallente law, even before the Federation. (Gallente History: Nascent Era)

5. The Caldari were responsible for the succession, for refusing to integrate the colonies. (Gallente History: Luminate Era)

6. The Caldari were also responsible for the outbreak of war, by ethnically cleansing the population of Caldari Prime, and bombing the Gallente underwater city, Nouvelle Rouvenour. (Gallente History: Luminate Era)

7. The Gallente did not in fact intend a genocide, merely a "shock and awe" campaign to force the Caldari to surrender. (Gallente History: Luminate Era)

8. The Caldari Army ws responsible for more civilian casualties, by drawing out the battle. (Gallente History: Luminate Era)

9. The Caldari killed those willing to pursue a policy of peace and reconciliation at the Tea Maker Ceremony. (Gallente History: Luminate Era)

10. The Ultra-nationalist government (although "paranoid") tended to administer the unrest with controlled and capable countermeasures, such as the arrest of only 5,000 Intaki, which quelled the unrest on their planet without further violence. (Gallente History: Luminate Era)

11. Tovil-Toba was responsible for killing over 2 million civilians. (Gallente History: Luminate Era)

12. The Caldari killed more Federation citizens than the Federation killed Caldari. (Gallente History: Luminate Era)

13. The Caldari used harsh measures against the colonies they captured. (Gallente History: Luminate Era)

14. The Gallente managed to push back the Caldari by inventing drones, and pushed deep into State space with almost no loss of life. (Gallente History: Luminate Era)

15. The only way the State managed to stem the tide was by a gift of technology from the Jove, the capsule. (Gallente History: Luminate Era)

16. The Gallente win the Battle of Iyen-Oursta by holding the field. Caldari inflict more casualties. (Gallente History: Luminate Era)

17. The Caldari sign a peace agreement, losing Caldari Prime to the Federation. (Gallente History: Luminate Era)

18. The Caldari State is corrupt and nepotistic. Most workers live in terrible conditions. Otro Garuishi is driven to the Guristas, and by various means, eventually becomes CEO of Ishukone. (Ruthless)

19. The State is found to be shipping contaminated food-stuffs (protein delicacies) to the Federation. (News Item)

20. The State economy is in shambles. (TEA)

21. Federation corporations easily putdo those of the State on a regular basis. (TEA)

22. The Federation is a "utopia", according to CONCORD, and the best nation in the cluster. (TEA)

23. Tibus Heth rises, thanks to the Broker, and takes over several Caldari corporations. Corporate executives are written to be exploitative cowards, living like kings while the majority of Caldari starve. (TEA)

24. Tibus Heth creates saboteurs to attack historic sites on Caldari Prime, so the Federation will get the blame. (TEA)

25. Tibus Heth collaborates with the broker to have a Gallente Supercarrier impact Malkalen station, HQ of Ishukone, thus killing Otro Garuishi. (TEA)

26. Tibus Heth uses the entire Caldari Navy (which is apparently very, very, very, very small in comparison to the other navies) to invade Caldari Prime. The Gallente still manage to inflict heavy casualties. (TEA)

27. The State Protectorate manages to take every Gallente system and hold it for six months. Nothing of any note happens, save the Gallente electing a new, hard-line president.

28. CCP changes FW, makes it flip-flop like crazy. CCP waits until Gallente is on the upswing, then implements one of the fastest patches ever, making defending systems much easier, thus ensuring Gallente domination of FW.

From the above, I think I can say that the Caldari State has repeatedly been depicted as incomptent, evil, and stupid. The absolute worst the Gallente ever get is in the succession, with the ultra-nationalists, and they still kill fewer Caldari than vice-versa (something new to the lore, btw). Aside from that, the Federation are consistently depicted as moderate, capable, and consistently humanitarian. You want us to go beyond what's written. It's rather hard when what is is about as subtle as a sledgehammer to the face. The worst the Federation has happen is other people doing bad things to it. Aside from that, their leaders are as pure and righteous as the snow. If you like, I can make another list of the Federation being good and holy in all things. I don't wish to, as I had about all of the Mary-Sue-ness they exhibit just from trying to handle the Caldari interacting with them.

From this, I think I can safely assert that future "rights being wronged, and wrongs being righted" will probably consist of the Caldari losing Caldari Prime, and of Heth either getting tossed out in favor of a pro-federation Mary Sue character, or becoming even more of a monster. Whatever happens, "Good" will be whatever the Federation wants and is best for it. Yippee.

EDIT: Every time I read the Cal lore, I get an urge to quit Eve.
Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
The Fourth District
#47 - 2012-12-27 03:11:13 UTC
Please note an extensive amount of the Prime Fiction above is TEA or even more recent.

Vik, myself, and others began our development years before using the information at hand then. While the Caldari Navy was the smallest, it had a significant more number of battleships and many of their systems were state of the art. We bought into a State where no one person or even corporate power ruled supreme, held in check by its sister corporations. Etc.

Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#48 - 2012-12-27 10:56:01 UTC
This is really deviating off of the original topic, but holy cow is that a lot of reading bias there Vikarion.

A lot of what you've listed has already been in the PF for yonks, has it not? The original Gallente-Caldari War chronicles and other sources ALWAYS said it was the Caldari who seceded, ALWAYS said the Caldari were inferior technologically before first contact, ALWAYS said the Caldari offed their peaceful leaders, ALWAYS said that only 5000 Intaki were arrested, ALWAYS said it was never a genocide attempt but a subjugation one (that was a player truth and can still hold up IC), ALWAYS said the Caldari used harsh measures on any colonies they captured (Sinq Laison region description), ALWAYS said the Caldari inflicted more casualties at the Battle of Iyen-Oursta.

These things aren't new, so you shouldn't be acting like they are. What is new, however, is the bit where the Federation (at least how I read it) can be seen to be one giant corporate conspiracy founded by plutocrats to ensure that Gallente Prime remains the economic enslaver of the rest of known space. You missed the bit about how the U-Nats suspended the two core documents of the Fed, meaning that technically the Fed shouldn't even exist, and used massive amounts of tyranny over a huge area of space.

Vikarion, you have always read the Caldari State to be a libertarian paradise where allegedly any immigrant can go to to build the life of their dreams. That's the Federation, not the State. I remember long-winded debates in-game about how you interpreted the image of the Federation to actually fit that of the Caldari State instead. That was never the case, it was always supposed to be a corporate oligarchy with fascist tendencies (that's the closest thing to the consensus definition of fascism, not the 'people in power we don't like' definition of fascism).

This actually goes back to the original topic, about how you read and interpret the PF, and Valerie Valate's point about different rationalizations. The State is not founded on classical liberalism. If you're going to keep a closed mind about it, then the PF is going to offend you. If I purposely ignore 'oh the Amarr doesn't practice slavery', then read that they DO, then that's my fault. I'm somewhat disappointed that the Fed isn't as integrated as I thought it was, because as a geek/nerd I sort of like things to be clear-cut and firmly defined. But it's not, so I have to deal with that. Some people thought Rilnais live event was horrendous, but it sort of makes sense according to the Fed govt article. "We are libertarians. You're getting attacked? You didn't contract out the Federation military? Sorry, **** out of luck". I found that a bit offensive, but apparently that's how it works IC.

You all picked out points that are offensive to a Western classical liberal. The Caldari inflicted more civilian casualties? So? Why would the Caldari care about the deaths of non-Caldari? They don't have the Gallente's Greco-Roman approach to human life. They rationalize it differently, which connects to the point about the Angel Cartel in the OP.

If your concern is about killing off Caldari RP, I disagree. There's plenty of Caldari RPers who have lapped up the new lore and carry on. We still have Amarr RPers even with the slavery thing, and Gallente RPers even with having the 'genocidial maniacs' idea forced upon them as a player truth. You're disheartened because the State is not being portrayed as you want it to be portrayed.

This is EVE. It's grimdark all around. Even the Black Eagles are an example of how the Gallente aren't white knights at all.
CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#49 - 2012-12-27 12:04:13 UTC
I am going to say that your reading of the information presented in the wiki article seems to be slanted in ways that aren't intended. For instance, constantly bringing up the casualty rates as being something in favor of the Gallente, when it's intended to be more "the Caldari, though outnumbered, used their superior cultural cohesion, morale, and technology to give worse than they were given."

Additionally, there are places where the Caldari are shown to be "superior" to the Gallente, such as the slavery article, which states "However, human trafficking remains a problem, particularly in low security areas of the Federation, where some estimates suggest that millions of individuals are held in some form of unwilling servitude", while "Slavery is a completely alien concept to most Caldari" and "Perhaps uniquely among the people of New Eden, the Caldari have no known history of slavery."

Both sides have been painted with a poor brush at times. In the Empyrean Age, for instance, high level corruption within the Federation Navy allows the Caldari to invade and retake their homeworld, which leads to a brutal public execution that is gleefully soaked up by the blood-hungry populace. And the Navy, despite efforts to fix the problem, still has massive problems in its border defenses and allowed an entire city to be leveled by pirates with no action by the Navy.

I'm not going to claim that the depiction of both sides has been even handed up to this point. It clearly has not. I am saying that going forward, our goal is to make the depictions more even handed. You can believe we are going to fail in that effort if you wish, but I have a strong belief that we won't.

EVE Online/DUST 514 Community Representative ※ EVE Illuminati ※ Fiction Adept

@CCP_Eterne ※ @EVE_LiveEvents
CCP Falcon
#50 - 2012-12-27 12:19:41 UTC
CCP Eterne wrote:
I am going to say that your reading of the information presented in the wiki article seems to be slanted in ways that aren't intended. For instance, constantly bringing up the casualty rates as being something in favor of the Gallente, when it's intended to be more "the Caldari, though outnumbered, used their superior cultural cohesion, morale, and technology to give worse than they were given."

Additionally, there are places where the Caldari are shown to be "superior" to the Gallente, such as the slavery article, which states "However, human trafficking remains a problem, particularly in low security areas of the Federation, where some estimates suggest that millions of individuals are held in some form of unwilling servitude", while "Slavery is a completely alien concept to most Caldari" and "Perhaps uniquely among the people of New Eden, the Caldari have no known history of slavery."

Both sides have been painted with a poor brush at times. In the Empyrean Age, for instance, high level corruption within the Federation Navy allows the Caldari to invade and retake their homeworld, which leads to a brutal public execution that is gleefully soaked up by the blood-hungry populace. And the Navy, despite efforts to fix the problem, still has massive problems in its border defenses and allowed an entire city to be leveled by pirates with no action by the Navy.

I'm not going to claim that the depiction of both sides has been even handed up to this point. It clearly has not. I am saying that going forward, our goal is to make the depictions more even handed. You can believe we are going to fail in that effort if you wish, but I have a strong belief that we won't.


This, pretty much.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3
Publius Valerius
AirGuard
LowSechnaya Sholupen
#51 - 2012-12-27 14:00:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Publius Valerius
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:


For example, I always thought the Federation was one giant space democracy at every level. But in actuality it doesn't seem that different from the Amarr Empire, where member states (instead of holders) are trying to one-up each other without any concern for one another.


[Troll mode on]
A nice idea, which I would love to play around. Of course just if you dont mind? You could say, that the members of the Union (Gallente, Caldari, Intaki, Mannar etc...) are holders and this light the Caldari would be just a "fallen" House (like the Khanid Kingdom). So in this new light I can only say: It is really sadly to see, that our Gallente friend, unlike us, cant keep peace with their brothers.P Let the reconciliation of the amarrians and khanids be an example for you.PPeace should always been an option.Big smile


Vikarion and Seriphyn think about it. Maybe you both will find peace too?

[/Trollmode off]

I would love to have those classes ingame. See here:

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/376566/march-07-2011/joshua-foer
Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
The Fourth District
#52 - 2012-12-27 15:22:48 UTC
CCP Eterne wrote:
I am going to say that your reading of the information presented in the wiki article seems to be slanted in ways that aren't intended. For instance, constantly bringing up the casualty rates as being something in favor of the Gallente, when it's intended to be more "the Caldari, though outnumbered, used their superior cultural cohesion, morale, and technology to give worse than they were given."


In there is much of the core feedback I suppose.

The wiki/fiction articles can and will be read with a slant and not how the author(s) intended it to be read. This is especially true when the author(s) have "complete knowledge" and a reader may not or have arrived at a different picture based on their own perception of previous, incomplete material.


Divergence

Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
ALWAYS said it was never a genocide attempt but a subjugation one (that was a player truth and can still hold up IC)


The Early Days indicates systematic bombardment and does not provide intent. Was there another source for the information? Bloodbird brought up this topic as something clarified in the new wiki articles. The reason it can still hold up IC is because the Federation tried and convicted the U-Nat President of crimes against humanity. It did not however find enough evidence to convict others, toning down the overall "badness" of the U-Nats.

This gets back to intent and perception.


I recognize that managing the fiction and world building is difficult and I appreciate your efforts.

Lai Dai Infinity Systems
CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#53 - 2012-12-27 16:06:36 UTC
Dex Nederland wrote:
The wiki/fiction articles can and will be read with a slant and not how the author(s) intended it to be read. This is especially true when the author(s) have "complete knowledge" and a reader may not or have arrived at a different picture based on their own perception of previous, incomplete material.


Which is intended. We want people to be able to say "The Gallente attempted a genocide on the Caldari when they bombarded Caldari Prime" and others to say, "No, they were just attempting a shock & awe campaign aimed at ending the war quickly."

I personally think the article as currently written continues to allow both interpretations to be equally valid.

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Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
The Fourth District
#54 - 2012-12-27 17:19:37 UTC
The Gallente Federation history article, as written, expressly states that the Gallente U-Nat intent was not genocide. The article expressly states that the Federation tribunal found insufficient evidence to convict the wider U-Nat administration of crimes against humanity. The article is not vague.

What it leaves open for and expressly states is debatable is whether or not the conviction of the U-Nat president was founded on evidence or a political conviction.

For the most part, the information in the article can be assumed to be IC knowledge. "A Federation court found no broad intent to commit genocide against the Caldari." The exodus recorded stories of "the days the sky rained fire, Caldari-civilization was leveled, and its people driven into the wilderness" can be written off as stories of terrified civilians caught in the nightmare of war and not objective evidence of an attempt at genocide.

I disagree with your assessment that the article as written allows both interpretations to be equally valid.

I also do not think the articles do a good job of adequately capturing just how much of a minority the Caldari (or Intaki or other minorities) were at the outbreak of the GCW. If the intent is to portray the Caldari as overcoming a stacked deck and fight a 100 year war for survival, I think is lost on the reader.

Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#55 - 2012-12-27 18:59:41 UTC
I have contented myself with listening over speaking, lately. But, the bias toward the Gallente seems pretty clear cut to me, as well.

You would have us dismiss thousands of years of "real life demographics" and recorded "human nature" in deference to ideals of social equality that simply stated, have never existed. Human societies that have truly embraced the socialist ideals of the Federation have never enjoyed the economic latitude you attribute to the Gallente. It is simply not feasible, when taking into account human nature.

Those who have, do not, as a rule, share the spoils of their hard work with those less fortunate, or those less willing to strive for economic success. Not without strict totalitarian authority backing the redistribution of wealth and prosperity. Your assumptions of utopian excellence, as stated in much of the prime fiction, with regards to the Gallente are laughable. Not gonna happen.

The Gallente are the least believable creation CCP has come up with. While they do have undertones of corruption and graft, they are small and generally tossed aside as the actions of fringe groups and evil individuals who have hidden in the gardens of paradise.

The Caldari\Gallente opposition seems more like the dreamy propaganda of real life socialists against capitalism over a well thought out expression of the polar opposition originally intended by the game mechanics. And yet, chrons like Jita 4-4 exhort the Gallente as first rate capitalists who use profound business accumen to fund the utopian ideals that every Gallente citizen inevitably sees as proper and good. The Caldari, meanwhile, are laughable and greedy corporate flunkies who must resort to subterfuge and thievery, or the gifts gained from the enigmatic Jovians to maintain a measure of independance from the intellectually superior Gallente culture. This trend has increased over the years, not declined.

Originally, the "Big 4" each had equal measure of good and bad traits. Now, the Gallente enjoy canon support as a "Utopian" society. A societal endeavor that has repeatedly, in prime fiction to TEA, been an unattainable dream. The Gallente have apparently succeeded on a level that even the vastly superior Jovians failed to achieve. Even prostitutes in the Federation must be morally astute people whose happiness is assured by their unquestioning acceptance of the hedonistic
imperative and the benefits of political correctness, moral ambiguity and a lack of concrete conviction. The Federation Creed must be, "Don't worry, be happy.."

Anyone remember what happened to that guy?

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Myyona
Ataraxia Pharmacies
#56 - 2012-12-27 20:47:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Myyona
Let me try to softly chime in.

Of the Epic Arcs for the 4 major empires, the one regarding the Gallente (Syndiaction) is without a doubt the most morally "dark", involving the topics of child abuse, slavery and prostitution happening within the borders of the Federation along with power abuse and violation of civil rights. I suspect whoever wrote the arc was trying to highlight the darker sides if the Gallente, which I, sorry to say, agree to has become portrayed a bit too flawless in canon in the later years (no names mentioned).

I, in fact, had come to thought it was intentional from CCP, as an attempt to encourage players to sign up for other races than the Caldari, which by far had the most players signed up as capsuleers in the early years.

Btw. let me make an example:
Gallente-Caldari War: The War Drones On wrote:
Finally, the solution evolved from the stationary defenses of all things. The Gallenteans had employed mines for a long time with so-so results, but with the massive advances in robotics technology taking place at this time the mines were slowly transformed into a far deadlier object. The first drones were little more than mines with proximity detonators and some limited moving capabilities, but soon they had advanced to the level that a single drone almost rivaled a solo-fighter’s capabilities. The fact that drones were many times cheaper to build than fighters and didn’t require a highly trained pilot meant that the days of the solo-fighters were numbered. The drones reversed the tide of the war and now the Caldari were scrambling to come up with a solution against these new weapons. It didn’t take them that long - they simply upgraded their fighters a bit, added some shields and extra weapons and called the new vessels frigates. Some extra crew was also needed at first, but then the Caldari obtained capsule technology from the Jovians some years later and could again reduce the crew to one on most frigates.

tl;dr, The Caldari is at least, if not better, at the arms race than the Gallente. Even with the introduction of drones it is a small matter for the Caldari to adapt and continue to kick Gallente butt. The capsule technology just made it easier.

Modern Era of the Gallente Federation - Capsule Counterattacks wrote:
The Caldari Navy’s first response to the Federation’s drones was the replacement of solo-fighters with Frigates in the same year as the Minmatar Rebellion of FC95 (23216AD). Although it slowed the Federation’s rate of advance somewhat, it was still not enough due to the additional crew required for a frigate. It took no time at all for the Gallente to start fielding their own frigates, some even capable of carrying drones.

In FC103 (23224AD), Federation forces began encountering Caldari frigates that were far faster and maneuverable than anything encountered prior. It did not take long for Federal intelligence to discover that the Jove had given the Caldari a technology known as the hydrostatic capsule. It was able to remove the crew requirements on frigates, and give the pilot increased maneuvering options. Faced the enemy’s renewed vigor, the Gallente focused on increasing the speed and damage of their own drones. Around five so-called light drones would be able to destroy a single capsule-fitted frigate, and thus the Federation began organizing its doctrine around this tactic.

Victories would be scored by both sides, making them confident of their newfound strategies.
No, per previous bit of PF, it did not slow the Federation’s rate of advance somewhat; they got seriously blocked, because the Caldari adapted quickly matching the Federation all the way. It was not the capsule given by the Jove that made the major difference, because the Caldari were already kicking Gallente butt without it. And no, five small drones cannot destroy a capsuleer controlled frigate fit for fight. Cannot now, could not then, because the Caldari has never been behind on the arms race. Further, trying to "lorify" that a ship can field five drones is silly. Especially as they used to field ten.

Hm, reading more of The War Drones On does certainly not give me the same perception on events as the Gallente history articles tries to paint them.

CEO - Ataraxia Pharmacies Personal Biography
Publius Valerius
AirGuard
LowSechnaya Sholupen
#57 - 2012-12-27 21:37:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Publius Valerius
Myyona wrote:


I, in fact, had come to thought it was intentional from CCP, as an attempt to encourage players to sign up for other races than the Caldari, which by far had the most players signed up as capsuleers in the early years.



About the first part: As your thoughts, or lets say your theory, is build around this idea, or lets say founded on the note that there were or are to many Caldari; have I to say that could be just partially be true.

Yes, the Caldari are the biggest number of capsuleers, see the QUARTERLY ECONOMIC NEWSLETTER. EVE ONLINE. 2nd Quarter on page 8, but those numbers arent risen from the lore. It is more the case that to old attribute-System strongly favours the Archuras, as they had the lowest Charisma; as well some nice starting skills for their professions (see here). I remember, how I got roasted from a friend that I choose Amarr (True Amarr, Liberal Holder) just to have it on my character chart.





About the second part: The analysis of the example I have to agree.





Edit: By the way those reports have some nice artwork going on..... It would be great if CCP would upload or add them to the wiki (as some mention here, high res artwork is always welcome).

I would love to have those classes ingame. See here:

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/376566/march-07-2011/joshua-foer
Myyona
Ataraxia Pharmacies
#58 - 2012-12-28 09:35:14 UTC
True, Publius. but even before the Archura, most players did still sign up with the Caldari. From the origional short describtions of the four empires, the Caldari were stated to be the most militaristic and scientififically advanced of the four, while the Gallentes strong points were "soft" attributes.

For a sci-fi game about PvP, the Caldari just seemed like the better choice for most.

CEO - Ataraxia Pharmacies Personal Biography
Vikarion
Doomheim
#59 - 2012-12-28 10:04:47 UTC
Roga Dracor wrote:
I have contented myself with listening over speaking, lately. But, the bias toward the Gallente seems pretty clear cut to me, as well.

You would have us dismiss thousands of years of "real life demographics" and recorded "human nature" in deference to ideals of social equality that simply stated, have never existed. Human societies that have truly embraced the socialist ideals of the Federation have never enjoyed the economic latitude you attribute to the Gallente. It is simply not feasible, when taking into account human nature.

Those who have, do not, as a rule, share the spoils of their hard work with those less fortunate, or those less willing to strive for economic success. Not without strict totalitarian authority backing the redistribution of wealth and prosperity. Your assumptions of utopian excellence, as stated in much of the prime fiction, with regards to the Gallente are laughable. Not gonna happen.

The Gallente are the least believable creation CCP has come up with. While they do have undertones of corruption and graft, they are small and generally tossed aside as the actions of fringe groups and evil individuals who have hidden in the gardens of paradise.

The Caldari\Gallente opposition seems more like the dreamy propaganda of real life socialists against capitalism over a well thought out expression of the polar opposition originally intended by the game mechanics. And yet, chrons like Jita 4-4 exhort the Gallente as first rate capitalists who use profound business accumen to fund the utopian ideals that every Gallente citizen inevitably sees as proper and good. The Caldari, meanwhile, are laughable and greedy corporate flunkies who must resort to subterfuge and thievery, or the gifts gained from the enigmatic Jovians to maintain a measure of independance from the intellectually superior Gallente culture. This trend has increased over the years, not declined.

Originally, the "Big 4" each had equal measure of good and bad traits. Now, the Gallente enjoy canon support as a "Utopian" society. A societal endeavor that has repeatedly, in prime fiction to TEA, been an unattainable dream. The Gallente have apparently succeeded on a level that even the vastly superior Jovians failed to achieve. Even prostitutes in the Federation must be morally astute people whose happiness is assured by their unquestioning acceptance of the hedonistic
imperative and the benefits of political correctness, moral ambiguity and a lack of concrete conviction. The Federation Creed must be, "Don't worry, be happy.."

Anyone remember what happened to that guy?


Frakking well said.
CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#60 - 2012-12-28 11:09:50 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Eterne
For those pointing out specific passages, I will review the Gallente History articles and double check for inconsistencies with established PF. Those articles were not generally meant to retcon existing PF that was unambiguous before and in cases where it might have, it's to be considered an error unless we explicitly state otherwise.

However, keep in mind that this may take a few weeks to resolve.

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