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A comparison of incomes: how something is broken: Null and High, Solo and Team
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Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#61 - 2012-12-27 05:51:20 UTC
Randolph Rothstein wrote:
fleet mining is a social activity not a job,you cant put a price on a time with friends


I think OP forgot it can't be both at the same time. Miners should not have fun AND make good money that would be madness.
CaiIyn Dove
DMoney Corp
Fraternity.
#62 - 2012-12-27 09:51:21 UTC  |  Edited by: CaiIyn Dove
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
One word for why mining in Null is always going to pay more than mining in High Sec.

Rorqual.

Null Miners have superior boosts. Meaning superior yield.
In addition to this the Null Sec Ores do actually sell for more than high sec ores most months. I'm sure if you tried you could find a month where this wasn't true, but on average the numbers I have run for my own mining show Null Sec ores about 20% ahead assuming identical yields.

Which.... thanks to Rorqual, yields are higher in Null anyway.
So a Null Sec Miner should be making about 30% more than a High Sec miner for the same time mining.

This accounting for the ratio of ores you are getting in a grav site, or are you assuming constantly running around a ton of systems to raid the belts?

I haven't accounted for the Spod here. quite right. And no complaints at all from me on Spod getting changed to be worth while. Given it's the lowest, Gneiss is close to as low as a side note, then there is a massive jump to the next ore after that.
Right now, the maths actually says Low Sec mining is the most profitable by the hour, with Hemorphite & Hedbergite.
Arkonor is right up with the two of them.
Then the best regular high sec ore is about 20% lower than those three.

But even assuming all you mine is Veld, High, Low, or Null Sec, due to the difference in Boosts, the Null Sec miner is still making more money.
Additionally the larger rocks in Null Sec mean less wasted cycles (or less micromanaging meaning less hassle retargetting things, just have to watch local) so is an 'actual' yield increase for Null, (or rather a Decrease from theoretical for High).



I can give a chart

Ore Values
Ore- - Isk Value Per M3
Spodumain 80.36
Gneiss 110.75
Dark Ochre 188.77
Veldspar 189.19
Omber 194.55
Crokite 208.44
Bistot 213.01
Plagioclase 213.72 (High-sec ore)
Pyroxeres 221.05 (High-sec ore)
Scordite 225.82 (High-sec ore)
Jaspet 243.89 (Mostly in low-sec, very rare in null grav site)
Kernite 248.05 (High-sec ore)
Hemorphite 259.94 (Mostly in low-sec, very rare in null grav site)
Arkonor 279.86 (Null sec ore, must be spawn with Bistot in grav site)
Hedbergite 284.30 (Mostly in low-sec, very rare in null grav site)

When Arkonor has to be spawn with Bistot, you will have to average it: (280+213)/2=246.5. Which is even lower than Kernite.
Hedbergite, Hemorphite and Jaspet are extremely rare in null, you don't mine them much.

And in the OP you see the null's mining income is still higher than high-sec, slightly though, then that's probably because of the advantages you mentioned: 11% extra bonus from rorqual, bigger ores etc.
But in null , you'll pay station tax, sometimes rent fees, transportation fees or whatever as well.

I can see how you hesitate to show a number of final income, because it is practically different from the theory.

I didn't try to figure out the risk cost such as neutral roaming gang and cloaky campers, since relocating a mining fleet is not as easy as doing so for a single ratting ship.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#63 - 2012-12-27 09:54:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
CaiIyn Dove wrote:
I can see how you hesitate to show a number of final income, because it is practically different from the theory.

I didn't try to figure out the risk cost such as neutral roaming gang and cloaky campers, since relocating a mining fleet is not as easy as doing so for a single ratting ship.

Also, if you're relying on system upgrades for grav sites, not only does that need the ihub upgraded, the system needs the level. You can't just move to another place and get the same sites. Belts in nullsec are still annoying to try and mine, especially if you want to be playing the whole T2 crystal/rorqural assumptions. Also some downtime for waiting for grav site to despawn and respawn, (rather minimal if you're clearing whole grav though).

The rats are also an annoyance, if you were factoring in using mining drones. (I usually don't can become a passle if you are multiboxing a bunch to get the most out of our rorqural/t2 crystals)

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Frying Doom
#64 - 2012-12-27 10:18:43 UTC
CaiIyn Dove wrote:
]


I can give a chart

Ore Values
Ore- - Isk Value Per M3
Spodumain 80.36
Gneiss 110.75
Dark Ochre 188.77
Veldspar 189.19
Omber 194.55
Crokite 208.44
Bistot 213.01
Plagioclase 213.72 (High-sec ore)
Pyroxeres 221.05 (High-sec ore)
Scordite 225.82 (High-sec ore)
Jaspet 243.89 (Mostly in low-sec, very rare in null grav site)
Kernite 248.05 (High-sec ore)
Hemorphite 259.94 (Mostly in low-sec, very rare in null grav site)
Arkonor 279.86 (Null sec ore, must be spawn with Bistot in grav site)
Hedbergite 284.30 (Mostly in low-sec, very rare in null grav site)

When Arkonor has to be spawn with Bistot, you will have to average it: (280+213)/2=246.5. Which is even lower than Kernite.
Hedbergite, Hemorphite and Jaspet are extremely rare in null, you don't mine them much.

And in the OP you see the null's mining income is still higher than high-sec, slightly though, then that's probably because of the advantages you mentioned: 11% extra bonus from rorqual, bigger ores etc.
But in null , you'll pay station tax, sometimes rent fees, transportation fees or whatever as well.

I can see how you hesitate to show a number of final income, because it is practically different from the theory.

I didn't try to figure out the risk cost such as neutral roaming gang and cloaky campers, since relocating a mining fleet is not as easy as doing so for a single ratting ship.

Umm quick question. You do know that the market works on supply and demand right and this whole Null minerals being worth crap has only occurred due to the safety now in Null due to its massive friends lists?

Oh not to mention the years of Null sec residence saying "If ore is worth crap don't mine it" to all the hi-sec dwellers.

So maybe the Hi-sec dwellers need to start saying to Null players "If ore is worth crap don't mine it"

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
TharOkha
0asis Group
#65 - 2012-12-27 10:31:54 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Randolph Rothstein wrote:
fleet mining is a social activity not a job,you cant put a price on a time with friends

if how you spend time with friends is mining you don't have friends you have people playing a cruel joke on you

You are a textbook example, what is wrong with null sec people. Ugh

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2012-12-27 10:48:14 UTC
TharOkha wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Randolph Rothstein wrote:
fleet mining is a social activity not a job,you cant put a price on a time with friends

if how you spend time with friends is mining you don't have friends you have people playing a cruel joke on you

You are a textbook example, what is wrong with null sec people. Ugh

well. he is goonswarm member. so it's ok Cool

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#67 - 2012-12-27 11:06:54 UTC
Miners:
(max skilled mackinaw with orca bonus)
High-sec: 20M-23M (no tax avaliable with high standing)
Null: 20M-25M (after station tax)

(mackinaw without any bonus)
High-sec: 12M-14M (no tax avaliable with high standing)
Null: 12M-15M (after station tax)

Team work (simply multiplication):
High (2 mackinaws): 24M-28M
High (1 mackinaws+1 orca): 20-23M

from the data you will see, with less than 3 mining alts, mining sololy of each is more profitable than bring an orca alt, so bringing an orca for anyone with less than 3 accounts will be a sacrifice of self-interest.
And for anyone has more than 3 accounts, there is still no benetif/boost/isk-reason to mining with corp-mates. Maybe want to have some buddies to talk with could a "reason", but it is a terrible one as it is the same as the reason you pets(though I agree pets don't talk).


tl;dr
At the moment EVE discourages people, especially newbies to get a fleet in general PVE actives.
Mining income in null is unfairly lower than high-sec, adding up the risk cost.
People have no actual reason to form up a mining fleet.[/quote]


I can see your numbers are already skewed in favor or your own addenda highest paying beltrat in hi sec few thousand.
Belt rats in Null, millions.

In hi there's no
Arknor
biscuits...
crokite
hebergate/hemorph
jaspet
Orche
mercoxit
spuds
And we all know how much hi end minerals go for, If prices are depressed for hi end how is that hi sec's fault?

Missioning in Null, are you talking NPC space cause if you are trying to live there it's like living in a lion's den and complaining that the lion's keep eating you. (Join the dominant Alliance in the area)

DED sites dropping and paying like mad.

If you have SOV you can manipulate your space for better this or that.

Moon mining? Not available in hi sorry.

PI in Null, tax set buy SOV holder how's that hi sec's fault? (And the amounts you get from PI)
way over 100%, you found a gold mine if you can find one in hi sec that has a 95% mining rate that last more then a few days,
Null PI never runs down there's always plentiful pickings.

Dropped bpc's worth billions....not in hi.

You say yeah but you die often in those parts well move? You can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.
with the amount of resources available to you you can build any ship up to BS with ease as a single player

Don't tell me your living in a veritable ocean of resources and riches and your broke, you are doing something wrong.
MrDiao
Fuxi Legion
Fraternity.
#68 - 2012-12-27 11:11:21 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
CaiIyn Dove wrote:
]


I can give a chart
.....

Umm quick question. You do know that the market works on supply and demand right and this whole Null minerals being worth crap has only occurred due to the safety now in Null due to its massive friends lists?

Oh not to mention the years of Null sec residence saying "If ore is worth crap don't mine it" to all the hi-sec dwellers.

So maybe the Hi-sec dwellers need to start saying to Null players "If ore is worth crap don't mine it"


Do you mean if there are lots enough people in null, the high-sec missions will pay more than the anomalies?
Free market fallacy.Big smile
As she stated above, since there is an unwanted result, we should not care about your "reasonable" excuse, because it is what going to be fixed.
Luanda Heartbreaker
#69 - 2012-12-27 11:12:02 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:

Don't tell me your living in a veritable ocean of resources and riches and your broke, you are doing something wrong.


exactly
CaiIyn Dove
DMoney Corp
Fraternity.
#70 - 2012-12-27 11:30:17 UTC  |  Edited by: CaiIyn Dove
Piugattuk wrote:



I can see your numbers are already skewed in favor or your own addenda highest paying beltrat in hi sec few thousand.
Belt rats in Null, millions.

In hi there's no
Arknor
biscuits...
crokite
hebergate/hemorph
jaspet
Orche
mercoxit
spuds
And we all know how much hi end minerals go for, If prices are depressed for hi end how is that hi sec's fault?

The result is broken, then something is wrong. You say it is reasonable, doesn't matter, let's fix that "reasonable stuff" and make the result good.


Piugattuk wrote:

Missioning in Null, are you talking NPC space cause if you are trying to live there it's like living in a lion's den and complaining that the lion's keep eating you. (Join the dominant Alliance in the area)

DED sites dropping and paying like mad.

If you have SOV you can manipulate your space for better this or that.

Moon mining? Not available in hi sorry.

PI in Null, tax set buy SOV holder how's that hi sec's fault? (And the amounts you get from PI)
way over 100%, you found a gold mine if you can find one in hi sec that has a 95% mining rate that last more then a few days,
Null PI never runs down there's always plentiful pickings.

Dropped bpc's worth billions....not in hi.

You say yeah but you die often in those parts well move? You can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.
with the amount of resources available to you you can build any ship up to BS with ease as a single player

Don't tell me your living in a veritable ocean of resources and riches and your broke, you are doing something wrong.


Missions in Null is unacceptable to many people, again. Your word has no value because even yourself don't do those missions, do you?

And I don't see how moon mining become a "General income" in your EVE. You say alliances are greed and bad, well if everyone being bad, there is a fault on something else.

DED sites? PI? how much % of people in your alliance are doing that? why or why not?

The one who skewed things in favor is actually you.
What I'm doing here is trying to consider the benefit for people of the majority, the expected risk/reward balance on every activities between null and high, not the way that some selfish people do like: "hey you know anomalies are mission-like crap, let's go dual boxing the 10/10, grab the loot before any other corpmate come to probe."
Luanda Heartbreaker
#71 - 2012-12-27 11:44:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Luanda Heartbreaker
CaiIyn Dove wrote:

Missions in Null is unacceptable to many people, again. Your word has no value because even yourself don't do those missions, do you?

And I don't see how moon mining become a "General income" in your EVE. You say alliances are greed and bad, well if everyone being bad, there is a fault on something else.

DED sites? PI? how much % of people in your alliance are doing that? why or why not?

The one who skewed things in favor is actually you.
What I'm doing here is trying to consider the benefit for people of the majority, the expected risk/reward balance on every activities between null and high, not the way that some selfish people do like: "hey you know anomalies are mission-like crap, let's go dual boxing the 10/10, grab the loot before any other corpmate come to probe."


moon mining is a general income in null. all the alliances and many many many toon live just from it even in small alliances.
u wanna talk about the majority, but actually the majority live in highsec and who u talk about is only the 10% minority of eve
also, if u have problems in ur alliance to share that fu..ing huge amount of isk can be taken from 0.0 (highsec is not even close to it) then u have chosen the wrong alliance

lets see
-null: i have a solo archon all with t1 stuff. t1 drones t1 tracking etc. i can do like 90 mill / hours if im lazy and just go into heaven, with alt or a mate it can be increased and with t2 it still can be increased. an archon is like 1.3 bill with all the stuff it need and im in nearly perfect safe. when i finish an anom, i just warp into the next. i dont even have to leave the system just warp from site to site.
-empire: i can have max marauder. with a useful fit it cost like 4 bill and attract every bloodmonkey. i can do like 20 mill/mission, if im good i can do the mission in 30 min, then go to dock, finish mission, request new one, warp to and back some system and do the next mission. it takes the other half an hour. im in constant danger as the marauder can be killed easily by an unwanted wave or an idiot ganker/griefer

really. income in null and hig totally broken... i can do 100 mill/hour with lazy stuff in null and 30 mill in high in danger, and still in hull i can have fun pvp while in high only the big wardec the small totally not fun wars are going... fix it please (or no, dont fix it, i dont want to lose my nullsec income, if i have to go back to highsec, i will just unsub again)
CaiIyn Dove
DMoney Corp
Fraternity.
#72 - 2012-12-27 11:50:11 UTC  |  Edited by: CaiIyn Dove
Luanda Heartbreaker wrote:
, if u have problems in ur alliance to share that fu..ing huge amount of isk can be taken from 0.0 (highsec is not even close to it) then u have chosen the wrong alliance


So the alliance: HUN Reloaded is distributing the moon mining income to every of its general members?

Need confirmation from the alliance leader Big smile
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#73 - 2012-12-27 11:54:47 UTC
If the station tax in Null can't be avoided (I was under the impression it was set by the Sov Holder, and any tax was actually paid to the Sov Holder, so the minerals actually exist just go to another source, meaning the actual wealth 'created' is more than just the Miners profit, and typically comes back to the miner via ship replacement programs etc at that point, but I never refined for myself in Null, though I have done mining ops in null), then lets fix that, assuming my assumption on Null Sec Sov stations tax was wrong.
If you can't get to 100% refining in Null as easily as you can in High, then lets fix that. (I'm pretty sure this one is true, 40% in Outposts, 50% in enough High Sec stations as to be 50% everywhere from what I remember).

But we don't need to go nerfing Highsec to below Null to fix that, just even out the aspects. And make everyone aware that Null Mining is actually more profitable, so if they want maximum income, go to Null and work for an Alliance that can field Rorquals to boost them.
Luanda Heartbreaker
#74 - 2012-12-27 12:03:14 UTC
CaiIyn Dove wrote:
Luanda Heartbreaker wrote:
, if u have problems in ur alliance to share that fu..ing huge amount of isk can be taken from 0.0 (highsec is not even close to it) then u have chosen the wrong alliance


So the alliance: HUN Reloaded is distributing the moon mining income to every of its general members?

Need confirmation from the alliance leader Big smile


u can smile, there is many dedicated alliance mining pos and there are TONS of player run mining poses in our ally. i hate that so i dont do it, just dont fit me to take care of fuel and stuff like feeding a baby, but my most direct mate has like 5-6 pos mining moons just for his account... and you dont even have to mine tech moons to make it worth.
I think u missed half ur evelife pointless if all u can do is to complain about things u dont even know
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#75 - 2012-12-27 12:14:56 UTC
CaiIyn Dove wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:



I can see your numbers are already skewed in favor or your own addenda highest paying beltrat in hi sec few thousand.
Belt rats in Null, millions.

In hi there's no
Arknor
biscuits...
crokite
hebergate/hemorph
jaspet
Orche
mercoxit
spuds
And we all know how much hi end minerals go for, If prices are depressed for hi end how is that hi sec's fault?

The result is broken, then something is wrong. You say it is reasonable, doesn't matter, let's fix that "reasonable stuff" and make the result good.


Piugattuk wrote:

Missioning in Null, are you talking NPC space cause if you are trying to live there it's like living in a lion's den and complaining that the lion's keep eating you. (Join the dominant Alliance in the area)

DED sites dropping and paying like mad.

If you have SOV you can manipulate your space for better this or that.

Moon mining? Not available in hi sorry.

PI in Null, tax set buy SOV holder how's that hi sec's fault? (And the amounts you get from PI)
way over 100%, you found a gold mine if you can find one in hi sec that has a 95% mining rate that last more then a few days,
Null PI never runs down there's always plentiful pickings.

Dropped bpc's worth billions....not in hi.

You say yeah but you die often in those parts well move? You can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.
with the amount of resources available to you you can build any ship up to BS with ease as a single player

Don't tell me your living in a veritable ocean of resources and riches and your broke, you are doing something wrong.


Missions in Null is unacceptable to many people, again. Your word has no value because even yourself don't do those missions, do you?

And I don't see how moon mining become a "General income" in your EVE. You say alliances are greed and bad, well if everyone being bad, there is a fault on something else.

DED sites? PI? how much % of people in your alliance are doing that? why or why not?

The one who skewed things in favor is actually you.
What I'm doing here is trying to consider the benefit for people of the majority, the expected risk/reward balance on every activities between null and high, not the way that some selfish people do like: "hey you know anomalies are mission-like crap, let's go dual boxing the 10/10, grab the loot before any other corpmate come to probe."


In this thread where did I say Null people are greed bags or bad people?

I got a question for all the people who say Null is broke...
if that is so why do corporations pay billions to the Alliance holder if it's not worth it?
I gave up hi sec PI, why it's not worth the time, effort, or isk to do it, if it wasn't worth it why stay in a place where it's too much effort too much pain too much isk only to pull in a pittance in profit?

Me smells the smell of bull malarky.
CaiIyn Dove
DMoney Corp
Fraternity.
#76 - 2012-12-27 21:24:16 UTC  |  Edited by: CaiIyn Dove
Luanda Heartbreaker wrote:

-empire: i can have max marauder. with a useful fit it cost like 4 bill and attract every bloodmonkey. i can do like 20 mill/mission, if im good i can do the mission in 30 min, then go to dock, finish mission, request new one, warp to and back some system and do the next mission. it takes the other half an hour. im in constant danger as the marauder can be killed easily by an unwanted wave or an idiot ganker/griefer


20M per mission. include bounty, salvage, loot and lp, and that mission will take you a hour in a 4 billion fit marauder

No I don't doubt your number. Because you probably missed this

Piugattuk wrote:

In this thread where did I say Null people are greed bags or bad people?

I got a question for all the people who say Null is broke...
if that is so why do corporations pay billions to the Alliance holder if it's not worth it?
I gave up hi sec PI, why it's not worth the time, effort, or isk to do it, if it wasn't worth it why stay in a place where it's too much effort too much pain too much isk only to pull in a pittance in profit?

Me smells the smell of bull malarky.


If you're talking about some corporations, the reason that they move to null, economically is they can't stay in high-sec when they are getting bigger.
because of war decs.