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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1261 - 2012-12-27 05:03:33 UTC
La Nariz wrote:


So fix the contradiction here you say they are separate in post one and now you claim they are not separate in post two.

Nullsec industry needs to be better because it is entirely player built and there is intrinsically more risk than highsec industry. Highsec industry in its current state completely ignores risk : reward and this can be seen by almost all of industry being concentrated in NPC generated empire. Highsec industry is the most rewarding out of all the sec status areas and this is wrong. It should be the least rewarding with respect to risk : reward.

Here let me go find my post that details the points in favor of nerfing highsec industry for you since you clearly did not read the thread.

E: The post

We have some good reasons to nerf highsec industry and buff industry in other sec areas:

1. Risk : Reward being horribly out of whack,
2. NPC content being > player content,
3. Greater free advertising via "national" news outlets,
4. Other sec areas require social interaction to thrive.

A point to be settled:

5. Why do newbies join EVE, if the shenanigans that generate point 3 are a significant reason newbies take up EVE then this one will be in the "reason to nerf highsec and buff nullsec."

Points against nerfing highsec industry and buffing industry in other sec areas:

Nothing really that the OP does not already answer. Point 5 could go this way as well depending on the statistical analysis once data collection has ended. If I missed something please tell me and I'll edit this list.


What contradiction. I know it's amazing, but things can be Separate and Connected at the same time. Perhaps a better word might have been Discrete rather than Separate. Meaning they can be moved independantly of each other. Null Sec gaining more capacity does not 'require' High Sec to loose capacity. Hence Separate/Discrete. However they are connected in that the market shares/profits of one will impact onto the other.

As for your 'linked' post, it's pretty much fallacies not backed up by any statistics, it's simply a claim someone is pushing that 'risk/reward ratio is out of balance'. There are no hard numbers, nor is there an ideal ratio listed anywhere. As was asked in another thread, what is this magic ratio, the net answer seems to be 'What gives the Null Sec Bears wanting high sec nerfed superiority'.
Even allowing for Risk/Reward, Living in Null Sec already has a higher reward as I said. Unless you really want to claim that Anoms don't make money hand over foot.

So, sure, currently there is a problem, do you see me disputing that, I've agreed with it in basically every post I make. What I disagree with is that High Sec needs nerfing so you can't do 'perfect' industry there. High Sec should always be able to do 100% refining, and get it down to 0% tax. So should Null by the same token. High Sec Industry should have the slots to meet demand, but so should Null. If High Sec has 'x' cost associated with it, so should Null industry. Might this cause a few changes to High Sec in order to bring about equality. Maybe if that's whats required to make lines equal. But not a Nerf just for the sake of making Null Sec better.

The PoS/Outpost cost you claim makes Null Industry harder isn't an Industry cost. It's a general cost of living in Null, already compensated for by the increased income in Null. Unless of course, you want to claim that the increased income in Null is utterly unrelated to the costs of Outposts in Null?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1262 - 2012-12-27 05:13:24 UTC
Whenever someone says "you want to make it so highsec industrialists can't compete" they mean "you want to make it so nullsec industrialists can compete with us! **** THE SKY IS FALLING WE HAVE TO EVACUATE"

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1263 - 2012-12-27 05:13:38 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
High Sec should always be able to do 100% refining, and get it down to 0% tax.

Only the best for highsec, protected by CONCORD, our overloads of magical protection.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1264 - 2012-12-27 05:14:12 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Whenever someone says "you want to make it so highsec industrialists can't compete" they mean "you want to make it so nullsec industrialists can compete with us! **** THE SKY IS FALLING WE HAVE TO EVACUATE"

No, they don't evac, they stay in highsec and whine at CCP.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1265 - 2012-12-27 05:17:53 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
High Sec should always be able to do 100% refining, and get it down to 0% tax.

Only the best for highsec, protected by CONCORD, our overloads of magical protection.


If the entire Amarr/Minmitar/etc Empire can't work out how to refine at 100%, neither should some 'small' 10,000 pilot alliance without trillions of people on planets working to support them.
Also well done on ignoring the immediatly following statement where I also say Null Sec should have exactly the same capability to get to 100%.
Or does it not suit you to have someone actually calling for equality because it makes the Nerf High Sec argument look weak.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1266 - 2012-12-27 05:19:43 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Whenever someone says "you want to make it so highsec industrialists can't compete" they mean "you want to make it so nullsec industrialists can compete with us! **** THE SKY IS FALLING WE HAVE TO EVACUATE"


This was effectivly in response to the people suggesting things like a 75% cap on refining in high sec. If you bothered reading the rest of my post rather than picking a single line, you would have read that Null Sec Industrialists competing with High Sec Industrialists is exactly what I am wanting. Rather than what a lot of the Null Sec people posting are seeming to want which is Null Sec Industry dominating hands down.
ConranAntoni
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1267 - 2012-12-27 05:19:46 UTC
Loving how every logical post is considered a goon post and not just someone with an ounce of intelligence to see a bigger picture.

Empyrean Warriors - Recruiting now.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1268 - 2012-12-27 05:21:12 UTC
ConranAntoni wrote:
Loving how every logical post is considered a goon post and not just someone with an ounce of intelligence to see a bigger picture.

It is a goon post, if it doesn't have their tag it must be an alt.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1269 - 2012-12-27 05:29:05 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
If the entire Amarr/Minmitar/etc Empire can't work out how to refine at 100%, neither should some 'small' 10,000 pilot alliance without trillions of people on planets working to support them

Maybe they can, but they don't want to give you that capability.

Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Also well done on ignoring the immediatly following statement where I also say Null Sec should have exactly the same capability to get to 100%.
Or does it not suit you to have someone actually calling for equality because it makes the Nerf High Sec argument look weak.

Why should you have equality? You didn't work for your industrial capability. We did.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1270 - 2012-12-27 05:39:21 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
If the entire Amarr/Minmitar/etc Empire can't work out how to refine at 100%, neither should some 'small' 10,000 pilot alliance without trillions of people on planets working to support them

Maybe they can, but they don't want to give you that capability.

Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Also well done on ignoring the immediatly following statement where I also say Null Sec should have exactly the same capability to get to 100%.
Or does it not suit you to have someone actually calling for equality because it makes the Nerf High Sec argument look weak.

Why should you have equality? You didn't work for your industrial capability. We did.

NPCs are like their master and owner, that's why. They're like pets of the NPCs and game mechanics, that's why they pay for repairs.

You don't talk back to -CONCORD-

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1271 - 2012-12-27 05:46:47 UTC
And you totally don't get any rewards for building outposts other than Industrial slots.....
It's not like they serve as a great base of operations for everything in Null......

And some Null Seccers complain about the High Sec sense of Entitlement, Jeez, some people need mirrors.

Make Industry equal, give it six months to settle out, then see how many industrialists have moved to null. My guess is quite a few will have moved once they have decent Null Sec capabilities, but if I'm wrong and no-one at all moves even once Null Sec has equal capabilities, then I'll admit it.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1272 - 2012-12-27 06:31:45 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
And you totally don't get any rewards for building outposts other than Industrial slots.....
It's not like they serve as a great base of operations for everything in Null......

And some Null Seccers complain about the High Sec sense of Entitlement, Jeez, some people need mirrors.

Make Industry equal, give it six months to settle out, then see how many industrialists have moved to null. My guess is quite a few will have moved once they have decent Null Sec capabilities, but if I'm wrong and no-one at all moves even once Null Sec has equal capabilities, then I'll admit it.

Why would they move if it has equal capabilities? It's riskier in nullsec to move stuff around unless you have a jump freighter, outposts are conquerable, and POS are even more vulnerable. You seriously think highsec industrialists will find that enticing in any way?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Frying Doom
#1273 - 2012-12-27 06:54:47 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
And you totally don't get any rewards for building outposts other than Industrial slots.....
It's not like they serve as a great base of operations for everything in Null......

And some Null Seccers complain about the High Sec sense of Entitlement, Jeez, some people need mirrors.

Make Industry equal, give it six months to settle out, then see how many industrialists have moved to null. My guess is quite a few will have moved once they have decent Null Sec capabilities, but if I'm wrong and no-one at all moves even once Null Sec has equal capabilities, then I'll admit it.

Why would they move if it has equal capabilities? It's riskier in nullsec to move stuff around unless you have a jump freighter, outposts are conquerable, and POS are even more vulnerable. You seriously think highsec industrialists will find that enticing in any way?

Plus the fact is that unless they join a huge alliance, their main markets are back in Hi-sec anyway.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1274 - 2012-12-27 08:47:33 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
And you totally don't get any rewards for building outposts other than Industrial slots.....
It's not like they serve as a great base of operations for everything in Null......

And some Null Seccers complain about the High Sec sense of Entitlement, Jeez, some people need mirrors.

Make Industry equal, give it six months to settle out, then see how many industrialists have moved to null. My guess is quite a few will have moved once they have decent Null Sec capabilities, but if I'm wrong and no-one at all moves even once Null Sec has equal capabilities, then I'll admit it.

Why would they move if it has equal capabilities? It's riskier in nullsec to move stuff around unless you have a jump freighter, outposts are conquerable, and POS are even more vulnerable. You seriously think highsec industrialists will find that enticing in any way?

It can't even really be thought of as helping. Unlike the heroes who fuel the towers and deal with all the logistics, rather than build in null, anyone can just JF it down.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1275 - 2012-12-27 09:12:53 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
And you totally don't get any rewards for building outposts other than Industrial slots.....
It's not like they serve as a great base of operations for everything in Null......

And some Null Seccers complain about the High Sec sense of Entitlement, Jeez, some people need mirrors.

Make Industry equal, give it six months to settle out, then see how many industrialists have moved to null. My guess is quite a few will have moved once they have decent Null Sec capabilities, but if I'm wrong and no-one at all moves even once Null Sec has equal capabilities, then I'll admit it.


Yes because all those factory outposts at 20+ bill a pop were built as staging postsRoll

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1276 - 2012-12-27 09:27:30 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
And you totally don't get any rewards for building outposts other than Industrial slots.....
It's not like they serve as a great base of operations for everything in Null......

And some Null Seccers complain about the High Sec sense of Entitlement, Jeez, some people need mirrors.

Make Industry equal, give it six months to settle out, then see how many industrialists have moved to null. My guess is quite a few will have moved once they have decent Null Sec capabilities, but if I'm wrong and no-one at all moves even once Null Sec has equal capabilities, then I'll admit it.


Yes because all those factory outposts at 20+ bill a pop were built as staging postsRoll

Do you know how many factory outposts it takes to reach the capability of your average highsec manufacturing station?
I don't know the answer, but I'm fairly sure you don't either. I do know that it's not at all comparable.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1277 - 2012-12-27 09:29:23 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
And you totally don't get any rewards for building outposts other than Industrial slots.....
It's not like they serve as a great base of operations for everything in Null......

And some Null Seccers complain about the High Sec sense of Entitlement, Jeez, some people need mirrors.

Make Industry equal, give it six months to settle out, then see how many industrialists have moved to null. My guess is quite a few will have moved once they have decent Null Sec capabilities, but if I'm wrong and no-one at all moves even once Null Sec has equal capabilities, then I'll admit it.


Yes because all those factory outposts at 20+ bill a pop were built as staging postsRoll

Do you know how many factory outposts it takes to reach the capability of your average highsec manufacturing station?
I don't know the answer, but I'm fairly sure you don't either. I do know that it's not at all comparable.

Well, do you have a freighter to move things multiple systems away? Because it sure isn't as easy as moving stuff in highsec (which you don't need, you can sit in a single station).

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Luanda Heartbreaker
#1278 - 2012-12-27 09:32:36 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
High Sec should always be able to do 100% refining, and get it down to 0% tax.

Only the best for highsec, protected by CONCORD, our overloads of magical protection.


omg. dont be so moronic. goonspace is hundred times safer then highsec and the income is even better. if u cant use it, u need a buff
raskonalkov
Tie Fighters Inc
#1279 - 2012-12-27 09:35:37 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
And you totally don't get any rewards for building outposts other than Industrial slots.....
It's not like they serve as a great base of operations for everything in Null......

And some Null Seccers complain about the High Sec sense of Entitlement, Jeez, some people need mirrors.

Make Industry equal, give it six months to settle out, then see how many industrialists have moved to null. My guess is quite a few will have moved once they have decent Null Sec capabilities, but if I'm wrong and no-one at all moves even once Null Sec has equal capabilities, then I'll admit it.


Yes because all those factory outposts at 20+ bill a pop were built as staging postsRoll

Do you know how many factory outposts it takes to reach the capability of your average highsec manufacturing station?
I don't know the answer, but I'm fairly sure you don't either. I do know that it's not at all comparable.


That is the bind right there, James.

Hi sec gets all the slots, but you can't find the materials needed for T2 and stuff in hi sec. In null sec you get the tech and moon goo and better roids, but its hard getting all the station slots.

If null had more station slots, they could easily build anything they wanted there and be very OP.

I do agree that null sucks in the ways you talk about, but it could become very OP pretty fast, why its a bind.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1280 - 2012-12-27 09:41:21 UTC
raskonalkov wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
And you totally don't get any rewards for building outposts other than Industrial slots.....
It's not like they serve as a great base of operations for everything in Null......

And some Null Seccers complain about the High Sec sense of Entitlement, Jeez, some people need mirrors.

Make Industry equal, give it six months to settle out, then see how many industrialists have moved to null. My guess is quite a few will have moved once they have decent Null Sec capabilities, but if I'm wrong and no-one at all moves even once Null Sec has equal capabilities, then I'll admit it.


Yes because all those factory outposts at 20+ bill a pop were built as staging postsRoll

Do you know how many factory outposts it takes to reach the capability of your average highsec manufacturing station?
I don't know the answer, but I'm fairly sure you don't either. I do know that it's not at all comparable.


That is the bind right there, James.

Hi sec gets all the slots, but you can't find the materials needed for T2 and stuff in hi sec. In null sec you get the tech and moon goo and better roids, but its hard getting all the station slots.

If null had more station slots, they could easily build anything they wanted there and be very OP.

I do agree that null sucks in the ways you talk about, but it could become very OP pretty fast, why its a bind.

In null we get marginally better roids, and tech is being nerfed.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)