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A comparison of incomes: how something is broken: Null and High, Solo and Team
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I Love Lesbians
Doomheim
#41 - 2012-12-26 09:26:08 UTC
If u make almost the same amount of isk mining in null sec ur doing it wrong... use the grav sites n mine ABC ores and you will get a lot more isk than you can ever get in highsec..
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2012-12-26 09:34:54 UTC
I Love Lesbians wrote:
If u make almost the same amount of isk mining in null sec ur doing it wrong... use the grav sites n mine ABC ores and you will get a lot more isk than you can ever get in highsec..


Only the A in the ABC ores is really worth more than what can be found in the belts of Empire.

And cherry picking just the ABC ores also means the grav site won't respawn, so who ever come through to mine later is stuck cleaning out all the junk ore if they want a new grav site without waiting for downtime.


Just because you don't think some one else is doing it right, doesn't mean that you are doing it right.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#43 - 2012-12-26 09:48:04 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
An ideal Future that did not come real after 10 years.
It did not come real after tiericide exactly on those mining ships (where a chance to change their game play was ignored).

The mining ship rebalance was never going to change the mechanics of mining itself since it was done by the ship balance team in isolation. That is something I expect to come in the next two years or so since CCP have recently talked about the Destruction > Harvesting > Creation cycle on a few occasions so it is obviously something they have in mind alongside industry rebalancing.

Quote:
The next expansions - for years - are about next ships tiericides, (hopefully) POSes and so on...

Tiericide and general ship balance is something happening alongside the main focus of each expansion, its only a 2/3 man team (is Tallest still on board or doing other things now) out of all CCP's staff working on it. POS revamp is a bigger job, but again, is something that can be done alongside other things, or might even be tied in to mining changes directly.

Quote:
This future is really really more of a wish than a future.

I thought I'd made that clear, though its obvious that CCP at some point are going to do something with mining and it isn't exactly groundbreaking and radical to infer that those changes might be along the lines of increasing player involvement and rewarding organisation as I suggested above.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#44 - 2012-12-26 10:18:37 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
I like the OP's post, not for his conclusion though.

I think it sums up very nicely why people stay in NPC corps, and why a lot of people would rather just stay in high sec.

Why mine in null if you can make just as much in high sec, in near perfect safety? People mine together all the time, and there doesn't need to be added reward just because you're working with other people.

2 people can do everything faster than 1. The reward for playing in a fleet should be that you can clear the content faster, and the added safety of an extra set of eyes. No one should get more ISK just for being in a fleet; especially when the content doesn't scale accordingly.

I would just form a fleet with some alts and go to whatever content I could do solo and get paid more for it.
It just leads to even more balance issues, and the devs end up having to find ways to keep the players from abusing it. It just creates more problems than it solves.

I'm not a fan of content that is explicitly designed around group play either. That tends to lead to players bitching about how they don't have access to something other people have access too. Kind of like how some people want CCP to make a non industrial capital ship that can be used in high sec.

I'm not a fan of restictive game content. The content itself should scale based on the number of people.
The more miners in a system, the more rats that spawn.
The more ships in a mission enviroment, the more NPC's that spawn.

There's no reason, today, for developers to design content around a minimum number of people when they have the ability to design that same content around a minimum of 1 and a maximum of whatever they can handle.

Especially in a game like EVE that doesn't revolve around structured content.
That type of **** is fine in a game like WoW, not EVE.

Wish I could give more than one like to this post.

Remove standings and insurance.
CaiIyn Dove
DMoney Corp
Fraternity.
#45 - 2012-12-26 19:55:59 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:

In an ideal Future Of Eve scenario where mining was far more involved, where the benefits of co-operation in organised fleets were much wider than ganglink bonuses, and where a diverse range of ships allocated to specific tasks was preferable to the typical setup of 'FC alt in Orca, everyone else in exhumers', it might genuinely be a social activity. Right now it's more that mining is so boring that if you don't have somebody around to talk to you'll either log off or turn to self-harm.


An ideal Future that did not come real after 10 years.
It did not come real after tiericide exactly on those mining ships (where a chance to change their game play was ignored).

The next expansions - for years - are about next ships tiericides, (hopefully) POSes and so on...

This future is really really more of a wish than a future.

Also, about the OP: mining is not an ISK faucet, any comparison between different mined commodities is pointless because demand and supply dictate the price, not your quite mistaken guesses.


Being a objective one, you will always check the "Result" at the highest priority, rather than the "Reason".

"Mining income in null is unfairly lower than high-sec, adding up the risk cost." is the "Result", and it is unwanted.

When the result is unwanted, you will not try to understand or "accept" the "Reason" that caused the "Result", because despite how reasonable the reasons are, they are going to be fixed.
Captain Death1
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2012-12-26 20:36:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Death1
mining in null is all done with bots buy larger alliances maybe they should just ban the null sec botters and there acounts
then in few weeks they get more for mining .


When so many in null have mining bots need to fix that before they do anything to fix any part of game high are low




funny how all the players in null with mining bots hate mining in high sec and hate miners



null=mining bots
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#47 - 2012-12-26 20:40:39 UTC
Captain Death1 wrote:
mining in null is all done with bots buy larger alliances maybe they should just ban the null sec botters and there acounts
then in few weeks they get more for mining .

When so many in null have mining bots need to fix that before they do anything to fix any part of game high are low

funny how all the players in null with mining bots hate mining in high sec and hate miners

null=mining bots

Perhaps you should report all these bots you have clear evidence of to CCP. Also, far too many empty lines. Bad poster.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Luanda Heartbreaker
#48 - 2012-12-27 04:23:39 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Captain Death1 wrote:
mining in null is all done with bots buy larger alliances maybe they should just ban the null sec botters and there acounts
then in few weeks they get more for mining .

When so many in null have mining bots need to fix that before they do anything to fix any part of game high are low

funny how all the players in null with mining bots hate mining in high sec and hate miners

null=mining bots

Perhaps you should report all these bots you have clear evidence of to CCP. Also, far too many empty lines. Bad poster.


well, seems that u try to defend the home :) bad girl
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#49 - 2012-12-27 04:27:25 UTC
Randolph Rothstein wrote:
fleet mining is a social activity not a job,you cant put a price on a time with friends


Time spent doing something as entertaining as pulling individual nut hairs out isn't exactly what I would call "Great social fun". I'd much rather throw together a gang of 10 good friends and go a maraudin' than stare at rocks. I mean it honestly makes raiding in WoW sound like good value entertainment, and I've been there, it isn't.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#50 - 2012-12-27 04:27:48 UTC
SWOOOSH WHOE THAT STATIONARY ASTEROID ALMOST HIT YOU HAHA TAKE A SCREENSHOT.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#51 - 2012-12-27 04:31:29 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
SWOOOSH WHOE THAT STATIONARY ASTEROID ALMOST HIT YOU HAHA TAKE A SCREENSHOT.

Saw MERCHI sig or something, about the rocks returning fire.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#52 - 2012-12-27 04:39:46 UTC
I Love Lesbians wrote:
If u make almost the same amount of isk mining in null sec ur doing it wrong... use the grav sites n mine ABC ores and you will get a lot more isk than you can ever get in highsec..


Nope. Check your facts and assumptions.

Mining lasers will produce a set volume of ore per cycle, rounded down to the nearest integer number of ore "units". Now go build a spreadsheet that takes current market value of all minerals, assumes 100% refining, and determine the value of each ore by cubic metre, then figure out what your income per hour will be when you mine particular ores using your specific strip miner capacity.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#53 - 2012-12-27 04:48:00 UTC
CaiIyn Dove wrote:
I have heard that many puppies complaining that their game experience is bad, but "bad" is a term that too vague to reveal anything. After being talked with some people(newbies) in depth, comparing with their experience from other mmo games, the most out-standing issue is that they feel lonely.


How to fix loneliness: stop being a ****. Make friends and get a social life.

Increasing income by working in teams has been tried: see Incursions. This doesn't build a community: the community forms around the need for cooperation, certainly. In many cases though what you end up with is one or two people driving the community with a whole bunch of sociopaths hanging on.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#54 - 2012-12-27 05:04:28 UTC
One word for why mining in Null is always going to pay more than mining in High Sec.

Rorqual.

Null Miners have superior boosts. Meaning superior yield.
In addition to this the Null Sec Ores do actually sell for more than high sec ores most months. I'm sure if you tried you could find a month where this wasn't true, but on average the numbers I have run for my own mining show Null Sec ores about 20% ahead assuming identical yields.

Which.... thanks to Rorqual, yields are higher in Null anyway.
So a Null Sec Miner should be making about 30% more than a High Sec miner for the same time mining.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#55 - 2012-12-27 05:12:13 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
One word for why mining in Null is always going to pay more than mining in High Sec.

Rorqual.

Null Miners have superior boosts. Meaning superior yield.
In addition to this the Null Sec Ores do actually sell for more than high sec ores most months. I'm sure if you tried you could find a month where this wasn't true, but on average the numbers I have run for my own mining show Null Sec ores about 20% ahead assuming identical yields.

Which.... thanks to Rorqual, yields are higher in Null anyway.
So a Null Sec Miner should be making about 30% more than a High Sec miner for the same time mining.

This accounting for the ratio of ores you are getting in a grav site, or are you assuming constantly running around a ton of systems to raid the belts?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#56 - 2012-12-27 05:26:01 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
One word for why mining in Null is always going to pay more than mining in High Sec.

Rorqual.

Null Miners have superior boosts. Meaning superior yield.
In addition to this the Null Sec Ores do actually sell for more than high sec ores most months. I'm sure if you tried you could find a month where this wasn't true, but on average the numbers I have run for my own mining show Null Sec ores about 20% ahead assuming identical yields.

Which.... thanks to Rorqual, yields are higher in Null anyway.
So a Null Sec Miner should be making about 30% more than a High Sec miner for the same time mining.

This accounting for the ratio of ores you are getting in a grav site, or are you assuming constantly running around a ton of systems to raid the belts?

I haven't accounted for the Spod here. quite right. And no complaints at all from me on Spod getting changed to be worth while. Given it's the lowest, Gneiss is close to as low as a side note, then there is a massive jump to the next ore after that.
Right now, the maths actually says Low Sec mining is the most profitable by the hour, with Hemorphite & Hedbergite.
Arkonor is right up with the two of them.
Then the best regular high sec ore is about 20% lower than those three.

But even assuming all you mine is Veld, High, Low, or Null Sec, due to the difference in Boosts, the Null Sec miner is still making more money.
Additionally the larger rocks in Null Sec mean less wasted cycles (or less micromanaging meaning less hassle retargetting things, just have to watch local) so is an 'actual' yield increase for Null, (or rather a Decrease from theoretical for High).
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#57 - 2012-12-27 05:33:52 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
I haven't accounted for the Spod here. quite right. And no complaints at all from me on Spod getting changed to be worth while. Given it's the lowest, Gneiss is close to as low as a side note, then there is a massive jump to the next ore after that.
Right now, the maths actually says Low Sec mining is the most profitable by the hour, with Hemorphite & Hedbergite.
Arkonor is right up with the two of them.
Then the best regular high sec ore is about 20% lower than those three.

But even assuming all you mine is Veld, High, Low, or Null Sec, due to the difference in Boosts, the Null Sec miner is still making more money.
Additionally the larger rocks in Null Sec mean less wasted cycles (or less micromanaging meaning less hassle retargetting things, just have to watch local) so is an 'actual' yield increase for Null, (or rather a Decrease from theoretical for High).

Quite right. I did similar calculations.

An issue in Deklein is that unless many people start mining at once, getting to the (supposedly most profitable) medium grav site raises an immediate flag for enemies. Currently running your maxed out rorqual with mindlink in from a POS is ok, depending on the changes, it might be a much bigger issue. That said, you can handwave away the issues of having hotdrops away doubtless.


This obviously won't help generate an industry though, because the low end minerals you need are still going to be brought in, in 425mm Railgun I form, of course.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Ryuji Takemiya
Doomheim
#58 - 2012-12-27 05:38:17 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
One word for why mining in Null is always going to pay more than mining in High Sec.

Rorqual.

Null Miners have superior boosts. Meaning superior yield.
In addition to this the Null Sec Ores do actually sell for more than high sec ores most months. I'm sure if you tried you could find a month where this wasn't true, but on average the numbers I have run for my own mining show Null Sec ores about 20% ahead assuming identical yields.

Which.... thanks to Rorqual, yields are higher in Null anyway.
So a Null Sec Miner should be making about 30% more than a High Sec miner for the same time mining.

This accounting for the ratio of ores you are getting in a grav site, or are you assuming constantly running around a ton of systems to raid the belts?

I haven't accounted for the Spod here. quite right. And no complaints at all from me on Spod getting changed to be worth while. Given it's the lowest, Gneiss is close to as low as a side note, then there is a massive jump to the next ore after that.
Right now, the maths actually says Low Sec mining is the most profitable by the hour, with Hemorphite & Hedbergite.
Arkonor is right up with the two of them.
Then the best regular high sec ore is about 20% lower than those three.

But even assuming all you mine is Veld, High, Low, or Null Sec, due to the difference in Boosts, the Null Sec miner is still making more money.
Additionally the larger rocks in Null Sec mean less wasted cycles (or less micromanaging meaning less hassle retargetting things, just have to watch local) so is an 'actual' yield increase for Null, (or rather a Decrease from theoretical for High).


Confirming that Arkonor, Hemorphite, and Hedbergite are all excellent products to harvest currently. Has Dark Glitter been brought up yet? Or gas used for boosters? All excellent for the wallet.

The money is out there if you've got your logistical support squared away for the haul to market, and you can handle mining while not afk. Having to stay focused while mining mught be the most difficult challenge.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#59 - 2012-12-27 05:41:48 UTC
Ryuji Takemiya wrote:
Confirming that Arkonor, Hemorphite, and Hedbergite are all excellent products to harvest currently. Has Dark Glitter been brought up yet? Or gas used for boosters? All excellent for the wallet.

The money is out there if you've got your logistical support squared away for the haul to market, and you can handle mining while not afk. Having to stay focused while mining mught be the most difficult challenge.

Inded, I don't really know how people do it. Fairly easy to toss all the stuff on the jump freighter service out of here, but much higher transport costs for others, I think.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#60 - 2012-12-27 05:43:10 UTC
Well, I'm hoping they don't strand the Rorqual with the PoS changes. But yea, working on the current system with regards to that.
Low Ends can similarly be mined faster in Null, it's the difference in the number of people doing it that causes the importing to occur. And the Demand. Spod dropping a lot more low ends would probably help with this problem a bit.

I deliberatly have stayed away from Costing Ice/Gas alongside ore for profit, since they are so dramatically different in how they work.

But yea, mainly putting paid to the fallacy that High Sec Mining makes more than Null Sec Mining. Other factors affect it obviously, but hour for hour per Pilot, Null/Low Sec mining should be better than High Sec Mining. Even with the current Glut on High Ends.