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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

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Lord MuffloN
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1241 - 2012-12-27 00:21:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord MuffloN
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Lord MuffloN wrote:
I've slowly started going insane due to my total investment of my EVE lifesavings into high sec invention/t2 production and POS management, I wish I was joking, ask Luna Deos in GSF, he's been mentoring me. I'm set for full on Cthulu worship by Febuary, what's your reason for posting?

I guess now that my mind have started to rot, not only by the dark lords will, but reading sixty ******* pages of the same inane **** being repeated I should weigh in on it as someone who actually makes all his ISK in high sec industry, but I'd be disregarded as a shill so what's the point of repeating of a lot that's been said, people don't take part in the discussions here to broaden their viewes, but to reinforce their own narrative.

I'm afraid neither CONCORD not blue lists can protect you from an unabalanced EVE, or General Discussion.


It's okay, the dark lord is whispering beautiful, horrifying things into my ears as I sleep, it makes my mind recover at least some sanity from reading this thread from start to finish.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1242 - 2012-12-27 01:46:00 UTC
La Nariz wrote:

So a lobby is entirely dependent on the arbitrary number of people in it. What a convenient definition to place on something. Using that definition you can easily go "lol no you are a lobby," do a little hand waiving and then continue to disregard anything that person said no matter how well reasoned their post is without most people being the wiser. Lets not forget while doing this you can pretend to be the amazing white knight championing the cause for all these poor good good people you are protecting from the evil lobby. You really have this :foxnews: thing down. I can't comment on why Aryth, Mynna, and Weasilor posted here but I am going to guarantee they know more about industry than you do.


No, a lobby is dependent on their ability to influence decisions. The largest alliance in EvE decided to push CCP's hands towards their objectives (regardless objectives even being the best in the world, it's still a push) including constant, never ending forum posting and 3rd party web sites.


La Nariz wrote:

Is it so hard to believe that out of 10,000 of us there are those of us who would like to do industry and be able to profitably do it in our own space instead of relocating to highsec to ensure profitability? Instead of providing more hand waiving and derails can you bring a novel point to the thread?



I agree with what you (your bosses) ask at 75%. You demand no less than 100% else it's forum wars and whatever.
That talks more about your organization ways than about me.


La Nariz wrote:

I can't comment on why Aryth, Mynna, and Weasilor posted here but I am going to guarantee they know more about industry than you do.

...

E: I should note it was 5-10 randoms that pulled off that huge market manipulation with FW, worth over 5 trillion isk (I think). 5-10 people working together can make a huge difference.


I notice how in a first sentence they are put aside to gods and in the next they are randoms.

Anyway I don't want to doubt they know more about [XYZ] than me, this does not guarantee that their point of view is neutral or even catering to all the players best interest or even catering to CCP's best interest.

That's the bad thing about painting themselves as the vicious villains of EvE: that after enough years people (not me) start to believe your "ruin your game" etc. propaganda as real and react accordingly.

Had it been CVA or some other alliance to write up all those nerfs, they'd probably have a much easier way convincing the player base about the various points.

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1243 - 2012-12-27 02:10:14 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
La Nariz wrote:

So a lobby is entirely dependent on the arbitrary number of people in it. What a convenient definition to place on something. Using that definition you can easily go "lol no you are a lobby," do a little hand waiving and then continue to disregard anything that person said no matter how well reasoned their post is without most people being the wiser. Lets not forget while doing this you can pretend to be the amazing white knight championing the cause for all these poor good good people you are protecting from the evil lobby. You really have this :foxnews: thing down. I can't comment on why Aryth, Mynna, and Weasilor posted here but I am going to guarantee they know more about industry than you do.


1. No, a lobby is dependent on their ability to influence decisions. The largest alliance in EvE decided to push CCP's hands towards their objectives (regardless objectives even being the best in the world, it's still a push) including constant, never ending forum posting and 3rd party web sites.

2. I agree with what you (your bosses) ask at 75%. You demand no less than 100% else it's forum wars and whatever.
That talks more about your organization ways than about me.


La Nariz wrote:

I can't comment on why Aryth, Mynna, and Weasilor posted here but I am going to guarantee they know more about industry than you do.

...

E: I should note it was 5-10 randoms that pulled off that huge market manipulation with FW, worth over 5 trillion isk (I think). 5-10 people working together can make a huge difference.


3. I notice how in a first sentence they are put aside to gods and in the next they are randoms.

Anyway I don't want to doubt they know more about [XYZ] than me, this does not guarantee that their point of view is neutral or even catering to all the players best interest or even catering to CCP's best interest.

4. That's the bad thing about painting themselves as the vicious villains of EvE: that after enough years people (not me) start to believe your "ruin your game" etc. propaganda as real and react accordingly.

Had it been CVA or some other alliance to write up all those nerfs, they'd probably have a much easier way convincing the player base about the various points.


I preserved parts of your post here to illustrate the utter lack of reason and borderline stupidity in it. All of this coming from a highsec intellectual.

1.
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I am alone so I can't really be a "lobby".
You reference an arbitrary number and go "I can't be a lobby because I only have X people." This is total crap it allows you to go "you have X people you are a lobby," and then you claim the point argued is wrong for that sole reason. There is no debate over the points' premises or logic just a "anything lobby's say is bad because I said so." I shouldn't need to explain why this is a logic failure.

I should also point out that by your newly changed definition (that you did to attempt to strengthen your own argument), you are also classified as a lobby because as one of the few highsec intellectuals you carry quite a bit of influential girth. All those people in MD believe you and follow you. Oh look there's some influence you must be a lobby to so that means everything you say is bad Roll.

2. Highsec miners have shown that a dedicated forum war is effective. I appreciate this as well it shows that CCP listens to us unlike other developers of well known MMOs like Blizzard/Activision.

3. I don't put them aside as gods at all, look at the post. Where is the reverence? Where is the sermon? Unless you insinuate that you are a god and that by them being more knowledgeable than you makes them a god. I show that a small group of people can make a huge difference when they apply themselves and I referenced randoms to relate it to your post.

4. Yeah no one buys the "not me" you've had that cute looking tinfoil hat on for quite a while now. [:goonspiracy:] needs to be an icon for these forums.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1244 - 2012-12-27 02:15:31 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
4. Yeah no one buys the "not me" you've had that cute looking tinfoil hat on for quite a while now. [:goonspiracy:] needs to be an icon for these forums.

It would be a nice icon.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Frying Doom
#1245 - 2012-12-27 02:42:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Alavaria Fera wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
4. Yeah no one buys the "not me" you've had that cute looking tinfoil hat on for quite a while now. [:goonspiracy:] needs to be an icon for these forums.

It would be a nice icon.

Slightly off the original subject.

But pins for associations other than alliances would not be to bad an idea. Just little images at the bottom of your portrait like.

ones for
EvE Uni Graduate
Tin Foil Hat Owners Association
Null Sec Lobby Group
EvE Cowards league (see James 315)
Friends of WiS
Haters of Wis

ect..

You get the idea.
outside alliance membership recognition

More of a joke post but at least with Null Sec Lobby Group icons we could give them to members of CSM 7.Lol

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Tesal
#1246 - 2012-12-27 02:45:43 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
La Nariz wrote:

So a lobby is entirely dependent on the arbitrary number of people in it. What a convenient definition to place on something. Using that definition you can easily go "lol no you are a lobby," do a little hand waiving and then continue to disregard anything that person said no matter how well reasoned their post is without most people being the wiser. Lets not forget while doing this you can pretend to be the amazing white knight championing the cause for all these poor good good people you are protecting from the evil lobby. You really have this :foxnews: thing down. I can't comment on why Aryth, Mynna, and Weasilor posted here but I am going to guarantee they know more about industry than you do.


1. No, a lobby is dependent on their ability to influence decisions. The largest alliance in EvE decided to push CCP's hands towards their objectives (regardless objectives even being the best in the world, it's still a push) including constant, never ending forum posting and 3rd party web sites.

2. I agree with what you (your bosses) ask at 75%. You demand no less than 100% else it's forum wars and whatever.
That talks more about your organization ways than about me.


La Nariz wrote:

I can't comment on why Aryth, Mynna, and Weasilor posted here but I am going to guarantee they know more about industry than you do.

...

E: I should note it was 5-10 randoms that pulled off that huge market manipulation with FW, worth over 5 trillion isk (I think). 5-10 people working together can make a huge difference.


3. I notice how in a first sentence they are put aside to gods and in the next they are randoms.

Anyway I don't want to doubt they know more about [XYZ] than me, this does not guarantee that their point of view is neutral or even catering to all the players best interest or even catering to CCP's best interest.

4. That's the bad thing about painting themselves as the vicious villains of EvE: that after enough years people (not me) start to believe your "ruin your game" etc. propaganda as real and react accordingly.

Had it been CVA or some other alliance to write up all those nerfs, they'd probably have a much easier way convincing the player base about the various points.


I preserved parts of your post here to illustrate the utter lack of reason and borderline stupidity in it. All of this coming from a highsec intellectual.

1.
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I am alone so I can't really be a "lobby".
You reference an arbitrary number and go "I can't be a lobby because I only have X people." This is total crap it allows you to go "you have X people you are a lobby," and then you claim the point argued is wrong for that sole reason. There is no debate over the points' premises or logic just a "anything lobby's say is bad because I said so." I shouldn't need to explain why this is a logic failure.

I should also point out that by your newly changed definition (that you did to attempt to strengthen your own argument), you are also classified as a lobby because as one of the few highsec intellectuals you carry quite a bit of influential girth. All those people in MD believe you and follow you. Oh look there's some influence you must be a lobby to so that means everything you say is bad Roll.

2. Highsec miners have shown that a dedicated forum war is effective. I appreciate this as well it shows that CCP listens to us unlike other developers of well known MMOs like Blizzard/Activision.

3. I don't put them aside as gods at all, look at the post. Where is the reverence? Where is the sermon? Unless you insinuate that you are a god and that by them being more knowledgeable than you makes them a god. I show that a small group of people can make a huge difference when they apply themselves and I referenced randoms to relate it to your post.

4. Yeah no one buys the "not me" you've had that cute looking tinfoil hat on for quite a while now. [:goonspiracy:] needs to be an icon for these forums.


Somebody needs to carry the banner for evil incarnate. May as well be Goons.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1247 - 2012-12-27 03:41:20 UTC
Tesal wrote:
Somebody needs to carry the banner for evil incarnate. May as well be Goons.


More emotional appeals, do you have any actual arguments to make?

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1248 - 2012-12-27 03:48:52 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Tesal wrote:
Somebody needs to carry the banner for evil incarnate. May as well be Goons.

More emotional appeals, do you have any actual arguments to make?

We'll do our best!

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Tesal
#1249 - 2012-12-27 04:02:17 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Tesal wrote:
Somebody needs to carry the banner for evil incarnate. May as well be Goons.


More emotional appeals, do you have any actual arguments to make?


Emotional, lol. That was meant to be funny. Obviously I failed.

Seriously though, themittani.com has the talking points on nerfing hi-sec (tl;dr). Is it any wonder that a lot of Goon posts pop up saying nerf hi-sec? Some posts in this thread are 3 in a row from Goons. Looks like forum warriors are busy and on message. Its a Goonspiracy.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1250 - 2012-12-27 04:08:09 UTC
Tesal wrote:
Emotional, lol. That was meant to be funny. Obviously I failed.

Seriously though, themittani.com has the talking points on nerfing hi-sec (tl;dr). Is it any wonder that a lot of Goon posts pop up saying nerf hi-sec? Some posts in this thread are 3 in a row from Goons. Looks like forum warriors are busy and on message. Its a Goonspiracy.


At least you admit you have fallen for the goonspiracy. The first step in fixing a problem is admitting you have one. Nerf highsec posts have been going on since the unwarranted barge EHP buffs so this is nothing new its just the most productive thread so far.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1251 - 2012-12-27 04:13:11 UTC
Since it bears repeating.

You ALL FAIL!

You keep tying Highsecs Industrial capatity directly into Null Secs lack of it.

THESE ARE SEPARATE THINGS.

Null Secs Industrial capacity can be buffed significantly without touching High Sec at all.
BUT, this is a RELATIVE nerf to High Sec, since Null Sec is then significantly closer to high sec, so no longer will a single high sec System have more industrial capacity than all of Null (Citation needed on that claim btw, because I seriously doubt that one is accurate, even knowing how unbalanced the ratio is currently).

If you want to be able to do Industry in Null, ASK FOR THAT. Get off the 'Nerf High Sec' page, and onto the buff Low/Null/WH Industry page. You will do much better on that page, and it is an 'effective' nerf to High Sec, while not actually nerfing it directly.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1252 - 2012-12-27 04:20:25 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Since it bears repeating.

You ALL FAIL!

You keep tying Highsecs Industrial capatity directly into Null Secs lack of it.

THESE ARE SEPARATE THINGS.

Null Secs Industrial capacity can be buffed significantly without touching High Sec at all.
BUT, this is a RELATIVE nerf to High Sec, since Null Sec is then significantly closer to high sec, so no longer will a single high sec System have more industrial capacity than all of Null (Citation needed on that claim btw, because I seriously doubt that one is accurate, even knowing how unbalanced the ratio is currently).

If you want to be able to do Industry in Null, ASK FOR THAT. Get off the 'Nerf High Sec' page, and onto the buff Low/Null/WH Industry page. You will do much better on that page, and it is an 'effective' nerf to High Sec, while not actually nerfing it directly.


The entire game is connected, what you do in Catch affects me up in Deklein. Every isk you earn from ratting makes isk in my wallet worth less than they were before. These are not separate things, industry in other sec areas is not viable because highsec is perfect. You cannot get better than perfect so no matter what happens highsec will have to be nerfed. No amount of insults and emotional appeals will change that fact.

For your statistic Sobaseki has more industrial capacity than regions in nullsec.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1253 - 2012-12-27 04:21:58 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Tesal wrote:
Emotional, lol. That was meant to be funny. Obviously I failed.

Seriously though, themittani.com has the talking points on nerfing hi-sec (tl;dr). Is it any wonder that a lot of Goon posts pop up saying nerf hi-sec? Some posts in this thread are 3 in a row from Goons. Looks like forum warriors are busy and on message. Its a Goonspiracy.

At least you admit you have fallen for the goonspiracy. The first step in fixing a problem is admitting you have one. Nerf highsec posts have been going on since the unwarranted barge EHP buffs so this is nothing new its just the most productive thread so far.

Whenever people in a similar situation agree, it's a conspiracy.

Well the minerspiracy worked, they got their EHP buffs. Maybe they'll also get some help with the bumpers, or the freighters with the gankers.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1254 - 2012-12-27 04:25:25 UTC
La Nariz wrote:


The entire game is connected, what you do in Catch affects me up in Deklein. Every isk you earn from ratting makes isk in my wallet worth less than they were before. These are not separate things, industry in other sec areas is not viable because highsec is perfect. You cannot get better than perfect so no matter what happens highsec will have to be nerfed. No amount of insults and emotional appeals will change that fact.

For your statistic Sobaseki has more industrial capacity than regions in nullsec.


And I did point out the connection. That a Null Sec Buff is equivilent to a High Sec Nerf already. Even if High Sec allows 'perfect' industry.

But why exactly does Null Sec Industry NEED to be BETTER.
I'm yet to see a single argument that can justify this.
Null Sec has better rewards already in terms of the higher Isk generation available via Tech Moons, Anoms, & Null Sec Ratting.

All I see is that Null Sec Industrialists want High Sec Industrialists to be unable to compete.
After all, you are all in Null Sec because you WANT to be right......
So if you have the industrial capacity to manufacture at the SAME cost as High Sec anything you need, where is the issue here? Since you WANT to be in Null you will be able to manufacture there just fine at that point.

I fail to see exactly how it is an emotional appeal to seperate the 'Nerf High Sec' cry from the 'Make Null Sec Industry workable' cry.
Unlike your 'Null Sec must be better' cry you keep pushing.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1255 - 2012-12-27 04:28:01 UTC
I'm still waiting for my tech nerf. When are they gonna do it?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1256 - 2012-12-27 04:31:29 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Since it bears repeating.

You ALL FAIL!

You keep tying Highsecs Industrial capatity directly into Null Secs lack of it.

THESE ARE SEPARATE THINGS.

Null Secs Industrial capacity can be buffed significantly without touching High Sec at all.
BUT, this is a RELATIVE nerf to High Sec, since Null Sec is then significantly closer to high sec, so no longer will a single high sec System have more industrial capacity than all of Null (Citation needed on that claim btw, because I seriously doubt that one is accurate, even knowing how unbalanced the ratio is currently).

If you want to be able to do Industry in Null, ASK FOR THAT. Get off the 'Nerf High Sec' page, and onto the buff Low/Null/WH Industry page. You will do much better on that page, and it is an 'effective' nerf to High Sec, while not actually nerfing it directly.

Not all the points are about relational capacity. In fact most point are about risk and logistics compensation. Increasing null capacity provides no compensation whatsoever for the quantifiable ongoing logistics and operational cost and doesn't even consider less quantifiable costs associated with risk mitigation and holding of space and facilities.

A big issue is the perfection and low cost of highsec. You can't beat perfect refine. You can't create meaningful differences in manufacturing costs to compensate for investment in POS/outposts when NPC slots are dirt cheap. The ability to create more null facilities is needed but that alone just makes more facilities that are still comparatively worse than those in highsec.

Capacity is not the whole issue.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#1257 - 2012-12-27 04:34:10 UTC
Tesal wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Tesal wrote:
Somebody needs to carry the banner for evil incarnate. May as well be Goons.


More emotional appeals, do you have any actual arguments to make?


Emotional, lol. That was meant to be funny. Obviously I failed.

Seriously though, themittani.com has the talking points on nerfing hi-sec (tl;dr). Is it any wonder that a lot of Goon posts pop up saying nerf hi-sec? Some posts in this thread are 3 in a row from Goons. Looks like forum warriors are busy and on message. Its a Goonspiracy.


Buff nullsec, I could give less of a **** what happens in the plague infested hellholes of spaceship inner cities.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1258 - 2012-12-27 04:35:21 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

And I did point out the connection. That a Null Sec Buff is equivilent to a High Sec Nerf already. Even if High Sec allows 'perfect' industry.

But why exactly does Null Sec Industry NEED to be BETTER.
I'm yet to see a single argument that can justify this.
Null Sec has better rewards already in terms of the higher Isk generation available via Tech Moons, Anoms, & Null Sec Ratting.

All I see is that Null Sec Industrialists want High Sec Industrialists to be unable to compete.
After all, you are all in Null Sec because you WANT to be right......
So if you have the industrial capacity to manufacture at the SAME cost as High Sec anything you need, where is the issue here? Since you WANT to be in Null you will be able to manufacture there just fine at that point.

I fail to see exactly how it is an emotional appeal to seperate the 'Nerf High Sec' cry from the 'Make Null Sec Industry workable' cry.
Unlike your 'Null Sec must be better' cry you keep pushing.


Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Since it bears repeating.

You ALL FAIL!

You keep tying Highsecs Industrial capatity directly into Null Secs lack of it.

THESE ARE SEPARATE THINGS.


So fix the contradiction here you say they are separate in post one and now you claim they are not separate in post two.

Nullsec industry needs to be better because it is entirely player built and there is intrinsically more risk than highsec industry. Highsec industry in its current state completely ignores risk : reward and this can be seen by almost all of industry being concentrated in NPC generated empire. Highsec industry is the most rewarding out of all the sec status areas and this is wrong. It should be the least rewarding with respect to risk : reward.

Here let me go find my post that details the points in favor of nerfing highsec industry for you since you clearly did not read the thread.

E: The post

We have some good reasons to nerf highsec industry and buff industry in other sec areas:

1. Risk : Reward being horribly out of whack,
2. NPC content being > player content,
3. Greater free advertising via "national" news outlets,
4. Other sec areas require social interaction to thrive.

A point to be settled:

5. Why do newbies join EVE, if the shenanigans that generate point 3 are a significant reason newbies take up EVE then this one will be in the "reason to nerf highsec and buff nullsec."

Points against nerfing highsec industry and buffing industry in other sec areas:

Nothing really that the OP does not already answer. Point 5 could go this way as well depending on the statistical analysis once data collection has ended. If I missed something please tell me and I'll edit this list.

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SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#1259 - 2012-12-27 04:45:16 UTC
I'd just like to thank World of Warcraft for introducing the newest usage of the word fail as well. It immediately lets me spot who the idiot is in any conversation.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1260 - 2012-12-27 05:02:52 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
I'd just like to thank World of Warcraft for introducing the newest usage of the word fail as well. It immediately lets me spot who the idiot is in any conversation.

There's a new usage of the word fail..?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?