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CNR or SNI for lowish SP mission running?
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Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-12-26 22:17:30 UTC
#1) My missile skills aren't all that great
#2) I Don't want to bling the tank that much, I want a ship that isn't asking to get ganked when missioning out of a hub such as dodi.
#3) Ideally it can solo all rooms of World's Collide (which seems to be the hardest lvl 4, or at least the guristas/angel rooms) and lvl 4 epic arcs (though I've only tried the Gallente and Minmatar ones so far)
#4) ISK/hour is not of utmost importance, thats what my incursion boats are for, and I have other turret ships that would be better for running missions. I'm looking for a high-end-ish starter missile BS

I've got all the pirate BSs and 3 navy BSs, and those cover shield/armor tanked lasers, shield and or armor tanked drone boats, same for projectiles and hybrids.
The only missile boat I've flown is a HML drake (before the HML nerf and buff to other missile systems, also I expect the drakes tank to be nerfed a bit making it less suited for lvl 4s)
I tried to get used to using cruise and or torps with the rattler, but found the mere 4 unbonused launchers on the rattler to be nearly useless,
...
So I wanted to get a *real* missile BS, something I can get acquainted with the behavior of large launchers when I'm waiting for others to get online, leisurely doing lvl 4s.

The SNI is looking pretty good to me, seems like it would have a nice tank, and the same DPS as a normal raven.... but without a torp range bonus, I worry it is effectively restricted to cruise for PvE, and that those cruise will do poor DPS,

Then I look at the Raven, and I see something that has a worse passive tank, and a weaker capacitor (so I presume its active tank is worse), I doubt it will "tank with gank" like a machariel will do (ie take down incoming DPS really fast) with just 1 extra launcher... and I wonder how viable a torp fit will be (as torp range still seemed poor on the rattler which has a role bonus equal to the rattler's lvl 5 bonus)
And considering both these things... I wonder If I even want a launcher based BS at all, or if I should just give up on such a BS without even trying it
Ginger Barbarella
#2 - 2012-12-26 22:31:06 UTC
SNI is a great boat *IF* you have the skills to take advantage of it. If your skills aren't that great don't waste your isk (losing the ship to NPCs is waste) using it. Get into a normal cruise Raven, learn how to fly it, get the skills decent (T2 fits and all supporting skills at 4 or 5), and go from there.

Just because you got 'em doesn't mean you're ready to use 'em, ya know? ;-) (PS: on that note, I can't stand CNR and the insistance of everyone to make them torp fit). I liked sending in the SNI to draw aggro, then the Tengu to clean up the small and mediums while the SNI killed the large targets. Yes, I drew aggro from everyone: I'm there to kill the baddies, not blitz to the end as quick as possible.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Demolishar
United Aggression
#3 - 2012-12-26 22:40:44 UTC
LOL at the implied Battleship I's
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2012-12-26 22:46:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Verity Sovereign
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
SNI is a great boat *IF* you have the skills to take advantage of it. If your skills aren't that great don't waste your isk (losing the ship to NPCs is waste) using it. Get into a normal cruise Raven, learn how to fly it, get the skills decent (T2 fits and all supporting skills at 4 or 5), and go from there.

Just because you got 'em doesn't mean you're ready to use 'em, ya know? ;-) (PS: on that note, I can't stand CNR and the insistance of everyone to make them torp fit). I liked sending in the SNI to draw aggro, then the Tengu to clean up the small and mediums while the SNI killed the large targets. Yes, I drew aggro from everyone: I'm there to kill the baddies, not blitz to the end as quick as possible.


Caldari BS is at 4, "supporting skills" as far as Shield/energy operation/management are at 5 (all these trained for the nightmare), drones are pretty good too, as are shield comps... its just the missile skill area that is lacking, I think my missile support skills are only at 3-4

I just haven't used anything but the pre-nerf HMLs as a primary launcher-weapon system.

And as far as the cost... were only talking what... 150 million price difference between the SNI and a normal Raven? With my incursion income, I can afford it (I just don't want to buy both, as I also have some faction cruisers to buy soon too)
Nor Tzestu
Dos Pollos Hermanos
#5 - 2012-12-26 22:53:48 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
SNI is a great boat *IF* you have the skills to take advantage of it. If your skills aren't that great don't waste your isk (losing the ship to NPCs is waste) using it. Get into a normal cruise Raven, learn how to fly it, get the skills decent (T2 fits and all supporting skills at 4 or 5), and go from there.

Just because you got 'em doesn't mean you're ready to use 'em, ya know? ;-) (PS: on that note, I can't stand CNR and the insistance of everyone to make them torp fit). I liked sending in the SNI to draw aggro, then the Tengu to clean up the small and mediums while the SNI killed the large targets. Yes, I drew aggro from everyone: I'm there to kill the baddies, not blitz to the end as quick as possible.


Caldari BS is at 4, "supporting skills" as far as Shield/energy operation/management are at 5 (all these trained for the nightmare), drones are pretty good too, as are shield comps... its just the missile skill area that is lacking, I think my missile support skills are only at 3-4

I just haven't used anything but the pre-nerf HMLs as a primary launcher-weapon system.

And as far as the cost... were only talking what... 150 million price difference between the SNI and a normal Raven? With my incursion income, I can afford it (I just don't want to buy both, as I also have some faction cruisers to buy soon too)


Post nerf the Tengu is still a viable choice with proper missle support skills. I second the plain raven as a start though. Cheap to fly/rig. Doesn't need any pimp and once your ready for a CNR you can offload it for what you have into it. TBH the SNI has way to much tank for a efficient level 4 boat and the CNR is a much better choice.
Akuma Tsukai
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-12-26 23:45:24 UTC
A small correction if i may. SNI doesnt have too much tank since you can spend less slots tanking it but... even usual raven can be fitted with 4 BCU already, what you gonna do with couple free mid slots on SNI?
SNI is for exploration or WH where a bit more tank is actually required.
So just go with usual 5 slot tank RNI (or usual raven) and downgrade tank from it as you will fell confident enough. Or go pulse tank if tahts what you want.
P.S.S RNI is terrible as torpedo boat due to number of rigs. Usual raven can spit T1 torpedoes up to 45 km range (50 on paper, but... we all know that bug), RNI is less. And for T2 torps golem always wins.
Kery Nysell
#7 - 2012-12-26 23:58:39 UTC
Hmmmm ... well, I'll go against the current ...

Yes, with the resistance bonus, you can devote less slots to your tank ... meaning you can fit a Target Painter (to keep the aggro on you and not your drones, and to increase the effectiveness of your Cruises), a couple of Drone modules (Omnit Track), and an ECCM in case of jamming Guristas ...

All that for one less launcher. Worth it, in my humble opinion. I have a Raven and a CNR, and well, my main mission boat is now a Navy Scorpion, so much more flexibility ...

Oh, and be sure to fit Rigor Rigs, an XL-Booster and pulse it ... you *DON'T* need a perma-run cap stable tank for L4 missions ... heck, with only two specific hardeners, Cal BS 5 and a DCU, my shield rarely goes below 40% in most level 4s ...

The exception being Worlds Collide, but that mission is a whole other game alone, there are usually THREE damage types instead of the usual two in there ...

Last note : Torpedoes NEED a Painter, a bonus, and Rigs to do full damage on BSes ... and they do much less on anything smaller.

...
Rexxorr
Perkone
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-12-27 02:04:42 UTC
If you can afford it skip the raven and go SNI you can fit a massive non deadspace active tank and its a very forgiving battleship. Fit a very very active strong tank in the beginning and go run some missions. As you get a feel for the SNI and the active tank you can slowly drop some tank for more gank as your missile skills improve. When you are first starting out don't listen to the "you have to much tank crowd", its a great way to lose a ship.


As your skills and fittings improve with the SNI you should be able to solo angels WC bonus room with proper balance between tank/gank an which towers/ships to kill first, reducing incoming dps to manageable levels.


Later on you will probably move to a CNR which is one of the best mission running BS. The CNR can mission in any space against any npc type due to selectable damage type(FoF works very well for those jamming/damping npc). The CNR has better killing power than a SNI but a weaker tank, a properly fit active tank CNR can do angels WC bonus room no problems. With the CNR I tend to use faction launchers with faction ammo, that means I kill frigs up to BS no problems , and I do more dps by not switching ammo types (fury/precision) using T2 launchers.


IMO the only mission boat worth using trops is the Golem, Golem has its drawbacks but two volleying BS in Damsel with rage torps will make you smile. You give up way to many module slots with the raven/SNI/CNR trying to make torps even half ass usable.


You can maximize your dps/(not waste ammo) with a missile boat by counting volleys and grouping/ungrouping your launchers depending on the npc you face. Or you can just relax and not worry about volley counting an launcher groupings. Depending on your mood of course.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-12-27 02:25:43 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
SNI is more forgiving. There isn't another 8 med slot BS other than the regular ECM scorp that's ineffective for missioning. Compared to the CNR, it has 1 fewer low but 2 more meds.

That ideal 8 med layout for a shield boat is an enormous advantage in term of ease of use, whether you choose more tank or more tps. That, in addition to the useful resist bonus.

Keep in mind that a 4 bcs SNI does the same dps as a 3 bcs CNR, so SNI is not as lacking in dps as it looks. A 4 bcs SNI fit, compared to a 3 bcs CNR fit, will have better tank, better cap, better speed, smaller sig, faster locking, longer targeting range, stronger sensor against ecm, and everything else, except gank - it has the same dps.

Unless you have the high skills to go full gank + minimal tank with CNR with 4 bcs, SNI is the way to go.
mama guru
Yazatas.
#10 - 2012-12-27 17:23:38 UTC
RNI Is one hell of a ship. SNI is a good and forgiving ship like above posters said.


I'd start with a T2 fit SNI if i was uncertain, dont blow money on T2 rigs and you can easily sell it off later with a minimal net loss.

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.
Eternal Error
Doomheim
#11 - 2012-12-27 18:10:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternal Error
Use a tengu/golem/rattler or use another race. CNR is the most overrated missioning ship of all time.
ragedquit
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-12-28 23:16:47 UTC
Just wondering why (isk cost asside) you wouldn't fit cruisers to a golem? Everyone complains about torps lacking range but the golems bonuses apply to cruise missiles too.
Kery Nysell
#13 - 2012-12-28 23:28:36 UTC
I don't fly a Golem (yet), but I think that the torp-fit has something to do with the bonus to Target Painters ... torps *need* that bonus to shine against smaller-than-BS things, and against BSes they indeed kill things faster than Cruises.

As for the range thing, maybe the answer is in T2 ammo or Rigs ...

Will have to try, but with only Marauders 2, I don't feel like flying a Golem at the moment ...

Oh, and the CNR was the best mission ship for years, before the various buff to Guns of all types ... now the King of the Hill is the Machariel, fast, agile, high damage beast, but it suffers against the new Target Disrupting/Damping 'rats, so I'm not sure it's "100% best, 100% of the time" ...

...
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-12-28 23:35:36 UTC
ragedquit wrote:
Just wondering why (isk cost asside) you wouldn't fit cruisers to a golem? Everyone complains about torps lacking range but the golems bonuses apply to cruise missiles too.


You don't need those bonuses on cruises and when it comes to firepower, cruise CNR is superior to cruise golem. There's other reasons, but that's the core of it.

sabre906 wrote:
SNI is more forgiving. There isn't another 8 med slot BS other than the regular ECM scorp that's ineffective for missioning. Compared to the CNR, it has 1 fewer low but 2 more meds.

That ideal 8 med layout for a shield boat is an enormous advantage in term of ease of use, whether you choose more tank or more tps. That, in addition to the useful resist bonus.

Keep in mind that a 4 bcs SNI does the same dps as a 3 bcs CNR, so SNI is not as lacking in dps as it looks. A 4 bcs SNI fit, compared to a 3 bcs CNR fit, will have better tank, better cap, better speed, smaller sig, faster locking, longer targeting range, stronger sensor against ecm, and everything else, except gank - it has the same dps.

Unless you have the high skills to go full gank + minimal tank with CNR with 4 bcs, SNI is the way to go.


^ what he said. In relation to missions I personally consider SNI as a Light CNR - a navy missile ship for those chars that can't yet mission with a full gank CNR. When skills improve, the whole fit can simply be transfered to CNR for more damage.
Kery Nysell
#15 - 2012-12-28 23:48:11 UTC
I might be doing something wrong then, because even with maxed skills, Caldari Navy BCSs, hardeners, SB, SBA and T2 Cruise launchers, I cannot fit a 4th BCS in there ... short on CPU.

Oh, but I don't have CPU implants, and I do have Rigor Rigs ... and I fit a DCU too, might be that.

So for me, it's three BCS on the Scorp, and three BCS on the Raven (both Navy), so I trade utility/ECCM/Painter for one less launcher.

All in all, and I've done 16 missions in each with equivalent fittings, I find my completion time to be faster with the Scorp ...

...
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-12-29 07:58:36 UTC
No implants are needed:

[Raven Navy Issue, Thor]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Signal Amplifier II

EM Ward Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Gist A-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
[empty high slot]

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I


Garde II x3
Hobgoblin II x2
Hobgoblin II x3

You can add Drone Link Augmentor in the last high slot, in which case you'll need 3% cpu implant, but I'm not using it personally.
Kery Nysell
#17 - 2012-12-29 11:17:08 UTC
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
No implants are needed:

[Raven Navy Issue, Thor]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Signal Amplifier II

EM Ward Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Gist A-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
[empty high slot]

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I


Garde II x3
Hobgoblin II x2
Hobgoblin II x3

You can add Drone Link Augmentor in the last high slot, in which case you'll need 3% cpu implant, but I'm not using it personally.


Gist shield booster, that's the main difference, I think that one uses less CPU than my Caldari Navy one ...

...
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-12-29 11:30:25 UTC
Gist and Caldari cpu both need 170 tf. What's your launcher rig skill? That can make quite a difference if it's not at a decent level - I have 17.3 tf left after Launcher Rigging IV.
Kery Nysell
#19 - 2012-12-29 12:17:43 UTC
Launcher Rigging IV here too ... but I have a Drone Link Augmentor II in the last high slot, and a DCU II instead of the Signal Amplifier II ...

I'll play around with my setup, trying to squeeze out a few more DPS Blink

...