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A comparison of incomes: how something is broken: Null and High, Solo and Team
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#21 - 2012-12-25 16:33:21 UTC
Kalen Pavle wrote:
I like how in order to suit the argument the taxes on high sec and null are different.

Gotta pay the rent, after all.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-12-25 16:55:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
I like the OP's post, not for his conclusion though.

I think it sums up very nicely why people stay in NPC corps, and why a lot of people would rather just stay in high sec.

Why mine in null if you can make just as much in high sec, in near perfect safety? People mine together all the time, and there doesn't need to be added reward just because you're working with other people.

2 people can do everything faster than 1. The reward for playing in a fleet should be that you can clear the content faster, and the added safety of an extra set of eyes. No one should get more ISK just for being in a fleet; especially when the content doesn't scale accordingly.

I would just form a fleet with some alts and go to whatever content I could do solo and get paid more for it.
It just leads to even more balance issues, and the devs end up having to find ways to keep the players from abusing it. It just creates more problems than it solves.

I'm not a fan of content that is explicitly designed around group play either. That tends to lead to players bitching about how they don't have access to something other people have access too. Kind of like how some people want CCP to make a non industrial capital ship that can be used in high sec.

I'm not a fan of restictive game content. The content itself should scale based on the number of people.
The more miners in a system, the more rats that spawn.
The more ships in a mission enviroment, the more NPC's that spawn.

There's no reason, today, for developers to design content around a minimum number of people when they have the ability to design that same content around a minimum of 1 and a maximum of whatever they can handle.

Especially in a game like EVE that doesn't revolve around structured content.
That type of **** is fine in a game like WoW, not EVE.
Randolph Rothstein
whatever corp.
#23 - 2012-12-25 19:03:02 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Randolph Rothstein wrote:
fleet mining is a social activity not a job,you cant put a price on a time with friends

if how you spend time with friends is mining you don't have friends you have people playing a cruel joke on you


the joke is on you because i dont have friends

*fingerpistols*Bear
Eraza
Fuzzyness Enterprizes
#24 - 2012-12-25 22:26:45 UTC
ironically after being just about everywhere in eve at some point, some of my favorite memories are mining ops, though most of the fun there was more about the company then the actual activity...

although one very memorable mining op in hostile territory was really exciting :P
Skylitsa
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2012-12-25 23:30:08 UTC
I'd like to add that the new NPC AI changes have really hurt my income from lvl 4 missions in my domi. (I operate in high-sec). It's clearly broken.
CaiIyn Dove
DMoney Corp
Fraternity.
#26 - 2012-12-25 23:54:32 UTC
Justin Valentine wrote:
CaiIyn Dove wrote:

General income: (depends on skill and mission type)
Level 4s(High-sec): 45M(Raven)-75M(High-ends) (No tax avaliable or 5% tax)
Anomalies(Null): 43M(Raven)-77M(High-ends except carrier) (After 15%tax)

Team work:
Level 4s(High-sec): (Raven+Nightmare): about 55M for each pilot, wasting a lot of time on calculating the loots value
Anomalies(Null): (Raven+Nightmare) : about 60M for each pilot
Anomalies(Null): (Nightmare+Nightmare) : about 78M for each pilot


Show me how you made these numbers for level 4 missions, they look greatly inflated for the average level 4 runner.

On the other hand your numbers for null anomalies is on the shy side, I guess this does not include the juicy faction loots that happen which may be rare but they certainly bump the income.


Faction loot is rare and unstable, you may just get two sets of tags and faction ammo for three days.

I agree that mission efficiency is heavily dependent on the missioner's experience and ship fit, but the difference of general income between null and high-sec is actually NOT the topic of this post. So I actually don't have to reply but just make a clarify because I feel happy to atm.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#27 - 2012-12-26 00:29:41 UTC
CaiIyn Dove wrote:
Faction loot is rare and unstable, you may just get two sets of tags and faction ammo for three days.

I actually just got me some tags and ammo.

Anyone want some Guristas Lead Charge L?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Eraza
Fuzzyness Enterprizes
#28 - 2012-12-26 00:30:19 UTC
Skylitsa wrote:
I'd like to add that the new NPC AI changes have really hurt my income from lvl 4 missions in my domi. (I operate in high-sec). It's clearly broken.


well, it's a little worse, mostly it takes a LOT more attention, and is a lot less fun, oh and T2 drones are now pvp drones, drone loss is too high now, the extra dps is not worth the drone replacement costs

turrets and missiles are unaffected, so yeah, it's really a drone nerf, although i'm not sure that was intended.
many changes bring with them unexpected side effects, and the old AI really had a case of brain damage..

i do like the new NPC AI in most ways, it makes group missions a lot more fun
the extra drone aggro is a real pain though
Smug Gallente
Doomheim
#29 - 2012-12-26 00:47:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Smug Gallente
you forgot about low sec FW missions.

150m+ / hour in a 30mln stealth bomber (you don't have to even salvage anything). All you have to do is check dscan and local and after 5 minutes of hardcore torpedo shooting you are done with the mission and move on to do the next one.
Ana Fox
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-12-26 01:29:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Ana Fox
Skylitsa wrote:
I'd like to add that the new NPC AI changes have really hurt my income from lvl 4 missions in my domi. (I operate in high-sec). It's clearly broken.


It is broken cause you dont bother to read how players adapted to new AI.It is broken cause you didnt even bother to try to use MJD with your Domi and lay back and enjoy while your sentries kill all on field.

To OP ,that statement about Raven making that much isk in lvl4s is kinda not so true.

CaiIyn Dove wrote:
Faction loot is rare and unstable, you may just get two sets of tags and faction ammo for three days.


That is same as in high sec ,you will see that bunch of explorers whine how exploring is nerfed cause they didnt had luck with loot,well it is random.Difference is as you go to null ,when you get something in low and null sec it is much more than in high sec.Exploring is not so great to be taken as example to compare high sec with low and null sec, cause of its nature and that is random loot tables.
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#31 - 2012-12-26 02:50:31 UTC
OP your numbers are not even close.
Where did you get them from ?

EVERYBODY KNOWS
Luanda Heartbreaker
#32 - 2012-12-26 03:17:34 UTC
Simetraz wrote:
OP your numbers are not even close.
Where did you get them from ?


he mixed his wow account with the eve one :)

with highsec missioning you cant even get close to what a solo carrier can earn in 0.0, or an botratting raven can do in lowsec belts. get a grip. all the real values are out of high sec. prove me wrong and i will move back :)
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-12-26 03:25:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
I could have written a page-long reply, but you're barely worth clicking the reply button to me. So tl;dr: not everybody plays the game to grind as much money as possible. Some people play to, you know, have fun, relax, and have something substantial to progress towards after a day at an office. I didn't join a corporation to make money, I joined a corporation to be a part of a corporation and join with other people in working towards common goals. I couldn't really care about making ISK, compared to the mainstream grind-based MMOs, making enough ISK to spend on everything I need in EVE is trivial. Even without having to log in.
Tarvos Telesto
Blood Fanatics
#34 - 2012-12-26 03:58:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarvos Telesto
CaiIyn Dove wrote:


Team work:
Level 4s(High-sec): (Raven+Nightmare): about 55M for each pilot, wasting a lot of time on calculating the loots value
Anomalies(Null): (Raven+Nightmare) : about 60M for each pilot
Anomalies(Null): (Nightmare+Nightmare) : about 78M for each pilot





You are wrong, Average incomes for top lvl 4 mission are betwen 20-35 mil iks per mission, so like 10-17mil isk per one character for example two battleships, and average time is like one hour or more, because here a lot gates - pokets, small frigates that are problem for battleships etc.

Also fixed for you.

Anomalies(Null): (Raven+Nightmare) : about 60M for each pilot + chance for faction spawn, living - rating in null - small chance for officer spawn.
Anomalies(Null): (Nightmare+Nightmare) : about 78M for each pilot + chance for faction spawn, living - rating in null - small chance for officer spawn.

Add fact that people who living in null space got more acces to rare sites and deds with faction npc.

Smart people who living in null space are more rich than these who farm mission in empire, but they need to be smart...

"
People have no actual reason to form up a mining fleet."


Agrre with this, because is easy and more profitable while plexing rating... Similar in empire if you compare orca + hulk vs 2x tengu in lv4 mission, but that mining sucks a bit is because of minerals price and economy.

Look at white glaze, few years ago 350.000 isk per unit, a simple ice ore, today like 140.000 .... Ice mining suck if you compare it to missions.

EvE isn't game, its style of living.
bcs1
Neutin Local LLC
#35 - 2012-12-26 05:30:49 UTC
Randolph Rothstein wrote:
fleet mining is a social activity not a job,you cant put a price on a time with friends


right ^^this^^

and to take it one step further, running missions in a fleet is about the same thing for most folks(group of friends), not to mention that you can run 2 to 4 times as many missions in the same amount of time in a fleet as you can solo.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#36 - 2012-12-26 08:06:20 UTC
OP pulled numbers out of his arse, thus this thread is quite useless.
CaiIyn Dove
DMoney Corp
Fraternity.
#37 - 2012-12-26 08:21:49 UTC
Tarvos Telesto wrote:



You are wrong, Average incomes for top lvl 4 mission are betwen 20-35 mil iks per mission, so like 10-17mil isk per one character for example two battleships, and average time is like one hour or more, because here a lot gates - pokets, small frigates that are problem for battleships etc.




You exactly pointed out another problem between null and high-sec. That is the anomalies farming in null is tend to be more brainless than missions in high-sec.

Doing missions requires more skill and intelligence,such as calculate LPs, choose agent and system and learn the way to maximize the hourly profit from each mission. However, anomalies are much brainless, as far as you don't die in a forsaken hub, knowing how to target and click turrets, you will be basically close to the maximum efficiency.

When a rather stupid guy can get 60m/hour in null, he may only get 20-30m/hour in high sec.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2012-12-26 09:04:12 UTC
Randolph Rothstein wrote:
fleet mining is a social activity not a job,you cant put a price on a time with friends

Much as Soundwave loves to wax lyrical about it, mining is so passive and one-dimensional currently that it barely counts as an 'activity' at all and that 'time with friends' mostly consists of bullshitting around on voice comms whilst tabbed out of Eve doing something else for 30 minutes at a time until your hold fills up and you need to drop the ore off.

In an ideal Future Of Eve scenario where mining was far more involved, where the benefits of co-operation in organised fleets were much wider than ganglink bonuses, and where a diverse range of ships allocated to specific tasks was preferable to the typical setup of 'FC alt in Orca, everyone else in exhumers', it might genuinely be a social activity. Right now it's more that mining is so boring that if you don't have somebody around to talk to you'll either log off or turn to self-harm.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#39 - 2012-12-26 09:15:49 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:

In an ideal Future Of Eve scenario where mining was far more involved, where the benefits of co-operation in organised fleets were much wider than ganglink bonuses, and where a diverse range of ships allocated to specific tasks was preferable to the typical setup of 'FC alt in Orca, everyone else in exhumers', it might genuinely be a social activity. Right now it's more that mining is so boring that if you don't have somebody around to talk to you'll either log off or turn to self-harm.


An ideal Future that did not come real after 10 years.
It did not come real after tiericide exactly on those mining ships (where a chance to change their game play was ignored).

The next expansions - for years - are about next ships tiericides, (hopefully) POSes and so on...

This future is really really more of a wish than a future.



Also, about the OP: mining is not an ISK faucet, any comparison between different mined commodities is pointless because demand and supply dictate the price, not your quite mistaken guesses.

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Himnos Altar
An Errant Venture
#40 - 2012-12-26 09:22:14 UTC
Skylitsa wrote:
I'd like to add that the new NPC AI changes have really hurt my income from lvl 4 missions in my domi. (I operate in high-sec). It's clearly broken.


Agreed. the AFK Domi was clearly broken.