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[Retribution Missile Comparison] HAM/HML Tengu v. Torp Golem v. Cruise/Torp CNR
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Eternal Error
Doomheim
#21 - 2012-12-25 16:51:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternal Error
sabre906 wrote:

I wouldn't put it in quite the same league as Mach/Vargur. It's 575 dps (hml, CN) or 628 dps (ham, jav, 3x range rigs) with 4x CN bcs, compared to 1300 dps of Mach/Vargur with 4x RF gyros. Rage ham ranges are far too low to be comparable to the 75km of Mach/Vargur, while still doesn't come close to the dps.

I fly both Mach and Tengu, the difference is visceral.

You're not doing anything close to 1300 dps at 75km with ACs

Rain6637 wrote:
cute, but I'm appalled the golem is being compared to the tengu. with wasted rigs on torp range. worthless.

you stick a prop mod on it, and move the platform to the pockets. a marauder is not a strategic cruiser; it's a marauder

"look at how much the marauder sucks at being a strategic cruiser!"

you use a tengu in missions when you can't fly a marauder yet. tractor beam range is 48km. rage and you're done. prop mod, kill and salvage missions by the pockets they spawn in.

No.

stoicfaux wrote:
Pyus wrote:
Helpful research.

I do have some questions as to what other factors might be important to consider in determining the true damage output of these ships/weapon systems. For example, sig radius bloom when NPCs are using MWD? In this instance torps might deal far more damage than HAMs or HMLs and the TTK and number of volleys would therefore be less.

I've never seen data on what the actual NPC sig bloom is. If we had that, then i could account for it.

Personally, I've never had much luck with gaming NPC sig bloom. IME, Angel elite frigates were so fast under MWD that they turned off their MWDs early and "coasted" in at fast speed and normal sig size. =(


Quote:
Since Retribution went live, I have never had to use more than two volleys of CN torps (explosive) to down any Angel elite frig including the Viper in the spreadsheet. Also take into consideration that my skills are not maxed - Marauders 4, Guided Missile Precision skill is 4, and no 5% explosion radius implant. Also, I'm only using two meta 4 TPs instead of the RF varieties.


That is interesting. And odd. When I get the time, I'll see if I can replicate it.

I'm pretty sure I've seen sig bloom matter for the Guardian serpentis frigs. Sometimes I'll volley them (mwd on but still accelerating?), other times it takes 2-3 volleys. I don't pay much attention though so I'm not sure.

Two volleys for angel elite frigs seems really low; it always takes me quite a few (similar skills on missioning toon/no relevant implants). I use t1 ammo though
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-12-25 16:54:46 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
stoicfaux wrote:
Funky Lazers wrote:

Very true.
All I wanted is to see is the difference in numbers :D
It would be cool to say "Mach is 2 times better that Tengu" or something like that.

For the Vargur/Mach, it boils down to falloff. If you're in 50% falloff, you do 50% DPS, which is around 500 DPS at ~40km for a Vargur. You also don't have to worry about miscounting missile volleys.

The Mach also has the benefit of being able to effectively mount and fly with an MWD, so it can reduce falloff pretty quickly.


Falloff curve isn't flat. At 50% falloff, you still do 85% dps. At outer edge of 1x falloff, you still do 50% dps.

This coupled with AC being a close ranged gun that tracks even the smallest targets perfectly at these distances. The applied dps is quite high compared to missiles (which had their exp radius/velocity recently nerfed, why CCP thinks Rage torps need even bigger exp radius, I'll never know...).

This is the kind of stuff you first notice when actually flying Mach and Tengu back to back. Then you look into why they handle the way they do, some of the stuff surprises you, and it all makes sense.

In practice, at 75km, you'll get ~1200 actual dmg per volley displayed for hml tengu with CN ammo on kinetic BS/cruiser rat after everything (resists, sig, tracking, falloff, etc) is taken into account. For Mach, it's ~1300 per volley, not counting drones. Mach rof is faster, and hits frigs perfectly starting at around half falloff.

EFT just doesn't cut it. You need to fly them to get an accurate assessment.

I've also tried ham tengu post patch. It's just not feasible in pve unless it's with jav plus 3x range rigs. It handled frig rats far better than I expected though, even without tps.
stoicfaux
#23 - 2012-12-25 17:50:54 UTC
CausticS0da wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Funky Lazers wrote:

Very true.
All I wanted is to see is the difference in numbers :D
It would be cool to say "Mach is 2 times better that Tengu" or something like that.

For the Vargur/Mach, it boils down to falloff. If you're in 50% falloff, you do 50% DPS, which is around 500 DPS at ~40km for a Vargur. You also don't have to worry about miscounting missile volleys.

The Mach also has the benefit of being able to effectively mount and fly with an MWD, so it can reduce falloff pretty quickly.



L2falloff. http://eve.grismar.net/wikka.php?wakka=Falloff.
Doh! My bad. Also, better link: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_Damage#Damage_and_DPS_reduction_due_to_a_lower_hit_chance


[quote]PvE Mach is better with AB IMHO.

I disagree, every ~11km closer you get, you do 10% more damage.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/58393-Machariel-Level-4-Blitzer-MWD-Web-EW-Drones-Minmatar-Space.html

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
CausticS0da
Shrubbery Acquisitions
Blohm and Voss Shipyards Alliance
#24 - 2012-12-25 20:18:43 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
CausticS0da wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Funky Lazers wrote:

Very true.
All I wanted is to see is the difference in numbers :D
It would be cool to say "Mach is 2 times better that Tengu" or something like that.

For the Vargur/Mach, it boils down to falloff. If you're in 50% falloff, you do 50% DPS, which is around 500 DPS at ~40km for a Vargur. You also don't have to worry about miscounting missile volleys.

The Mach also has the benefit of being able to effectively mount and fly with an MWD, so it can reduce falloff pretty quickly.



L2falloff. http://eve.grismar.net/wikka.php?wakka=Falloff.
Doh! My bad. Also, better link: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_Damage#Damage_and_DPS_reduction_due_to_a_lower_hit_chance


[quote]PvE Mach is better with AB IMHO.

I disagree, every ~11km closer you get, you do 10% more damage.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/58393-Machariel-Level-4-Blitzer-MWD-Web-EW-Drones-Minmatar-Space.html




You miscalculated turret dps by roughly 30%. That deserves more than a 'doh' .

You disagree with AB Mach with no reasoning other than an average machariel fit on battle clinic. Using an AB still gives just under 700 m/s cold ( I can't remember exact speed off-hand.) and lets you perma-zip around the room with the sig of a shield buffered battle cruiser. Speed and sig are also tank especially on a Mach. Try AB and MWD in space rather than EFT and I'm pretty sure you'll agree- for solo anyway. Just saying...
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#25 - 2012-12-25 21:14:19 UTC

[/quote]


You miscalculated turret dps by roughly 30%. That deserves more than a 'doh' .

You disagree with AB Mach with no reasoning other than an average machariel fit on battle clinic. Using an AB still gives just under 700 m/s cold ( I can't remember exact speed off-hand.) and lets you perma-zip around the room with the sig of a shield buffered battle cruiser. Speed and sig are also tank especially on a Mach. Try AB and MWD in space rather than EFT and I'm pretty sure you'll agree- for solo anyway. Just saying...





[/quote]

only real point of prop mod is to close in the target or gate so il vote mwd if you are using ab to orbit/tank or what ever u will ruin your tracking even on Battleship targets u will miss more often as well as having worse hits overall Large AC have nice tracking but they need to have STELLAR tracking for your type of doing it to be effective and mach don't have tracking bonus to begin with.

With arguably best dps dealers in game (pirate hulls) it is better to tank with your dps ie mwd in destroy everything move to next gate/mission,rather than burn AB at slower rate and orbit/zip around massing tracking up...

2c.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
stoicfaux
#26 - 2012-12-25 21:24:10 UTC
CausticS0da wrote:

You disagree with AB Mach with no reasoning other than an average machariel fit on battle clinic. Using an AB still gives just under 700 m/s cold ( I can't remember exact speed off-hand.) and lets you perma-zip around the room with the sig of a shield buffered battle cruiser. Speed and sig are also tank especially on a Mach. Try AB and MWD in space rather than EFT and I'm pretty sure you'll agree- for solo anyway. Just saying...


The fit I linked from battleclinic was my fitting that I use in Minmatar space. Speed tanking isn't necessary with the Mach. Pick a target, set keep at range to 12km, flip the MWD on until you're in range to use the Fed web and to use the Web & TP drones. Works quite well. Low transveral while MWD'ing in and then the web + web/tp drones keep the transversal low even at close range.

However, I will admit that I haven't bothering flying the mach since the drone aggression changes. But the drones are mostly just gravy anyway.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
CausticS0da
Shrubbery Acquisitions
Blohm and Voss Shipyards Alliance
#27 - 2012-12-25 22:46:13 UTC  |  Edited by: CausticS0da
stoicfaux wrote:
CausticS0da wrote:

You disagree with AB Mach with no reasoning other than an average machariel fit on battle clinic. Using an AB still gives just under 700 m/s cold ( I can't remember exact speed off-hand.) and lets you perma-zip around the room with the sig of a shield buffered battle cruiser. Speed and sig are also tank especially on a Mach. Try AB and MWD in space rather than EFT and I'm pretty sure you'll agree- for solo anyway. Just saying...


The fit I linked from battleclinic was my fitting that I use in Minmatar space. Speed tanking isn't necessary with the Mach. Pick a target, set keep at range to 12km, flip the MWD on until you're in range to use the Fed web and to use the Web & TP drones. Works quite well. Low transveral while MWD'ing in and then the web + web/tp drones keep the transversal low even at close range.

However, I will admit that I haven't bothering flying the mach since the drone aggression changes. But the drones are mostly just gravy anyway.


I'm certainly not advocating orbiting anything but I still prefer the control I feel an AB gives you overall. This might be a legacy of not previously being able to use MWD in missions- but I think it's more than that.

Looking closely at your fit... It does make good sense so it deserves a more positive response. I prefer poly to ionic rig but it's no big deal and not wasting faction hardener is win so yeah +1. Edit: looked at price and it's almost double the price of th done I use. Not worth it IMO.
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2012-12-25 23:38:15 UTC
Wow - thanks a lot! I came to this forum looking exactly for this info, and here it is !

I tried a lot new combos for missioning using the ships I had laying around. I must agree that the Tengu is still an excellent answer for missioning post-Retribution. An expensive answer ... but Machs aren't exactly cheap either ...
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2012-12-26 00:09:48 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
CausticS0da wrote:

You disagree with AB Mach with no reasoning other than an average machariel fit on battle clinic. Using an AB still gives just under 700 m/s cold ( I can't remember exact speed off-hand.) and lets you perma-zip around the room with the sig of a shield buffered battle cruiser. Speed and sig are also tank especially on a Mach. Try AB and MWD in space rather than EFT and I'm pretty sure you'll agree- for solo anyway. Just saying...


The fit I linked from battleclinic was my fitting that I use in Minmatar space. Speed tanking isn't necessary with the Mach. Pick a target, set keep at range to 12km, flip the MWD on until you're in range to use the Fed web and to use the Web & TP drones. Works quite well. Low transveral while MWD'ing in and then the web + web/tp drones keep the transversal low even at close range.

However, I will admit that I haven't bothering flying the mach since the drone aggression changes. But the drones are mostly just gravy anyway.


This is not how you fly a Mach. Using webs with Mach is ineffective in practice. Again, at 50% falloff, you're still doing 85% dps, Mach has 75km of it, so the need to close in at MWD speed is minimal. Mach AC tracks frig rats perfectly at 25km+, and will volley them. Going into web range and webbing them is a bad idea outside of incursions. Just stick drones on anything that gets close.

Mach has only 5 mids, for standard 4 slot shield tank plus 1 slot prop. Using webs means having to armor tank. The 7 lows are taken by 4 gyros and 3 tes. Armor tanking with standard 4 slot tank means only 3 gyros. and 3 tes replaced by 3 range scripted tcs, which will not give the tracking side bonus of tes.
Grombutz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-12-26 02:55:16 UTC
Is there any new info in here?
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-12-26 03:43:32 UTC
Grombutz wrote:
Is there any new info in here?


Stuff like falloff curve has been the same since forever, it's just some people still don't have a clue.
Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2012-12-27 11:42:20 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
CausticS0da wrote:

You disagree with AB Mach with no reasoning other than an average machariel fit on battle clinic. Using an AB still gives just under 700 m/s cold ( I can't remember exact speed off-hand.) and lets you perma-zip around the room with the sig of a shield buffered battle cruiser. Speed and sig are also tank especially on a Mach. Try AB and MWD in space rather than EFT and I'm pretty sure you'll agree- for solo anyway. Just saying...


The fit I linked from battleclinic was my fitting that I use in Minmatar space. Speed tanking isn't necessary with the Mach. Pick a target, set keep at range to 12km, flip the MWD on until you're in range to use the Fed web and to use the Web & TP drones. Works quite well. Low transveral while MWD'ing in and then the web + web/tp drones keep the transversal low even at close range.

However, I will admit that I haven't bothering flying the mach since the drone aggression changes. But the drones are mostly just gravy anyway.


This is not how you fly a Mach. Using webs with Mach is ineffective in practice. Again, at 50% falloff, you're still doing 85% dps, Mach has 75km of it, so the need to close in at MWD speed is minimal. Mach AC tracks frig rats perfectly at 25km+, and will volley them. Going into web range and webbing them is a bad idea outside of incursions. Just stick drones on anything that gets close.

Mach has only 5 mids, for standard 4 slot shield tank plus 1 slot prop. Using webs means having to armor tank. The 7 lows are taken by 4 gyros and 3 tes. Armor tanking with standard 4 slot tank means only 3 gyros. and 3 tes replaced by 3 range scripted tcs, which will not give the tracking side bonus of tes.


Gotta agree with this.. If you wanna use webs buy vindicator or kronos Blink
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2012-12-27 14:11:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
fly these ships more, EFT warrior less

do you fly a golem? cuz it rocks. do you fly a HAM tengu. a HML tengu. a machariel. i do. I'll use the machariel or golem depending on what the mission dictates. furthermore:

I hate the tengu; both HAM and HML. I have 2 HML and 1 HAM tengu.

I hate everything about cruise missiles.

I didn't read the pitcher analogy you made about teh golem because it was an analogy about pitching in baseball.

I've disliked only 2 battleships enough that I sold them, CNR is one of them.

Golem T2 salvager range: 48km. works well with torps. I didn't bother looking at your chart, because you fitted the golem with 2 torp speed rigs <--no credibility (wrong rigs) you prop mod the ship itself, but you don't want to hear that, because you want it to sit still so the torp range limits its competitiveness in your T3 chart. it's already a golem, just mwd it

there was a week where all I did was scan down mission runners and watch them. the Tengus were the only ones that took so long, I got bored and left.

Help, I can't download EVE

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