EVE General Discussion

So how does the person getting ganked mitigate the risks? I'm not just talking about Hulks in belts, even though they are thuroughly bummered. Even if they pay attention, the align time + warp acceleration time means they have about as much chance as a battlship running in to a bubblecamp.

Haulers? Even if they fly manually it is still possible to gank them. More difficult, but again, not as safe as the ganker, who risks virtually nothing for a chance of getting a fortune. Tank the hauler? Yeah, once upon atime, I found that very funny. That joke is old. I personally transport stuff in a old-school DD tank rokh. Can't really see what else to use it for, so I figured I might as well use it for that.

Freighters? Well, you can't fit anything to them, and even travelling manually this ship is so slow to align and warp, that there is little hope for it. Use a scout with a web to speed things up? Right. That'll make you as safe as the ganker



Well now. It's a tier three Battlecruiser. So I'm fairly certain that no mopre than BC III will be needed to pilot it. Besides, I already told you that people are already doing it. What I neglected to tell you is that people are doing it with Battleships. I'm not going to point you anywhere, but I'll ask you this:

If no one was doing it, why would it be deemed as an exploit?



See above for answers to your queries.

How could I possibly suspect anyone? How would I know that all these characters suddenly appearing stem from the same account? I don't expect anything from you, and I apologize if I somehow gave you that misconception. However, I do believe my point still stands very strong.

Thank you.

This is not a bad thing, you should advocate it. Subsidies are bad. And having things be worth what they should really be worth is a good thing.

Same way the ganker does: the right tools, the right tactics, a bit of intel, and not biting off more than you can chew.
“Chance.” Important word. Sure, he risks nothing, if you consider time to be worthless. If you do that, though, then no-one ever really risks anything.

Using the same basic tactics, and the same view on risk, then miners and haulers also risk virtually nothing for a chance of getting a fortune. So it's all quite nicely balanced. No, wait. That's not true. In their case, it's not really a chance, but a certainty, so if anything, it should be rebalanced to make things a bit more easy for the gankers and make their fortune assured as well.

Oh good lord "realism" has snuck in again. Why are insurance subsidized tritanium prices less real than unsubsidized tritanium prices?

The casual ease players display bringing in realism (this time via a flesh life view about free market economics) dumbfounds me.


DireNecessity

Despite claims to the contrary, CCP fiddles about in the market all the time in ways that are beyond player control. Sometimes via subsidies like insurance. Sometimes by altering raw material supply (what kind or ore can be found in what kind of system, how much respawns each down time, what kind of rats spawn where, how often they spawn, etc . . .)

To name one type of fiddling about artificial and the other not is puzzling.

My point, however poorly put, was that Epiphaniess seems to believe that there is a proper way to affect the value of an imaginary in game substance like tritaniam and subsidy via insurance ain't it. I dispute this by pointing out that claiming there is a proper way to set value in an internet space ship game economy is a little odd from the get go since it's all artificial to the very core.

I also, perhaps incorrectly, speculated that he dislikes obvious in game subsidies like insurance due to a flesh life view about market economics. I'll speculate further and claim you hold a similar flesh life position.

I'm not disturbed by such a flesh life view of subsidies -- free markets are a damn fine way to set value. What spins my head around is the unquestioned assumption that a particular flesh life view should map directly on to the in game economy.

I'll add that the casual ease with which same players import flesh life views into EvE only displays how immersive EvE can be. It can also blind said players to the balance concerns CCP faces trying to keep the game fun for multiple thousands of players scattared around the globe, all engaging in a buzzing storm of different play styles.

DireNecessity

simple.

1. if you can't afford to lose a hulk fly a covetor and don't fit it with deadspace/faction modules. reason: you shouldn't fly what you can't afford to lose.
2. don't fly hulks with deadspace/faction modules. reason: flying ships with deadspace/faction modules pays for people to continue, and even if the insurance was to be taken away people could fly 2 to 3 destroyers as a team, suicide gank you for those high end modules, pay for 20 or more additional destroyers (and fittings) and still make enough of a profit to make it worth their while, promoting them to want to do it again.
3. don't fly hulks in high traffic areas. reason: I said some place that about/over 90% of all suicide ganks take place within 3 jumps of major hubs. although this is true, I should probably go further on to say that less than 3% of suicide ganks take place outside of 6 jumps from major hubs. so if less than 3% take place further than 6 jumps from major hubs... doesn't that mean that people can spread out more and get out of the high target areas? woah, this is hurting my head... by just this tip alone... I'm suggesting that people are choosing to stay in high targeted areas... which isn't very logical.... why would anyone deliberately put themselves in an area where they're most likely going to be targeted, knowing that they're going to eventually be targeted in that area, yet they claim they don't want to be blown up....

wow. ... ... maybe I need to rethink my strategy... if people in low tank high value ships who claim they don't want to get blown up deliberately fly in high traffic areas where they have the highest chance to get blown up ... does this mean I need to fly my indy fleet into high traffic areas? I claim i don't want them blown up, and i do things to not get blown up... (haven't gotten ganked for around 4 years) ... Mr. Suicide ganker, are you forcing these pilots to fly in areas you frequently gank? I mean, do you have some sort of special weapon that prevents people from flying in different areas?

it's a long list? miners don't have to do all 3 things, and I wasn't aware 3 things was a long list. did you even read the list? 3 simple things, followed by the reasons to do them.

I only do 1 of the things I listed.... I don't fly my hulks in high traffic areas. just for the hell of it I bought 3 officer inv fields to put on the hulks... just to claim I had done it. I haven't put them on since, and will never put them on again because it's just stupid to do so.

as for suicide gankers ganking in hubs? 2 things.
1. don't mine close to the hubs.
2. when you take freighters to the hubs, insure the freighters (which can actually pay more than the freighter is worth depending on market prices and where you buy it or if you make it)

in addition to those 2 things, put the stuff you take to market in containers.
In addition to the above, take trips in freighters with empty containers on occasion.

I guarentee you that if you get suicide ganked in an empty freighter the suicide gankers will make fun of the suicide gankers that blew you up as they won't get a profit from ganking you. get everyone to do that enough and the number of suicide gankers ganking will lessen because it's not worth it for them.

it's funny, you're complaining, but there's a few really easy things you can do to prevent getting ganked that you're refusing to do.

EDIT: as for losing things like covetors... which are vastly cheaper, and mine a neglegable amount of ore less than a hulk... do you equip the covetors with high price modules? if you do, I perfectly understand why you're getting ganked. if you don't, then you're obviously doing something to be targeted (unless it's hulkageddon seson) and just refuse to admit to it. even in hulkageddon season, I get the random suicide gank fleet come through the constellation... but at that point I'm usually doing missions (which I hate doing but oh well) or mining with a navistas or bantam fleet which no one has stopped to gank. one attempt to gank my orca was made.... but the suicide gank fleet didn't see the basi 70 KM off keeping 4 large t2 shield transporters on the orca staggering them in the process so about once every second I got a full t2 large shield transporter boost. keeping in mind that I tanked for the expected EM/Thermal damage (as they were amarr ships) I didn't even get to 25% shields before CONCORD had finished blowing them up. that was for one of the hulkageddons a few years ago. I haven't had any attacks on my orca during hulkageddons since. if I did not have that basi there nor had tanked the orca for the inevitable attack that was bound to eventually happen, I would have lost the orca.

why can't you whining miners admit that you can do things ... intelligent things ... to not get blown up?

I mean, if I can prevent my 3 hulk pilots and my orca pilot from getting blown up for a solid straight 4 years, why can't you?

First I would like to state that I a not miner. I ahve mined on a few occations, but I used a Rokh. I have no intention of training up for a barge, as mining does not interest me. Secondly, I have already stated that I have never been suicide ganked. I've been ganked due to shooting an ore thief once, but I was fully aware of what would happen, and my insurance was about to run out anyways. The loss was minimal, and I certainly didn't shed any tears over the "loss".

It's not about your list being long, it's about all the content in your list. That's a lot of stuff.

As for game balance, your first point: "don't mine close to hubs". That's all great, but where is the mechanic to make it harder to gank near hubs?

As for the second point, I didn't realize you could insure the contents of a freighter. Because I know one thing for sure, after dynamic insurance costs were introduced, the payout should never be more than the cost of the ship. I naddition to that, where is the game mechanic that makes suicide gankers have to make trips with unfitted ships due to the risk of suddenly loosing their ships due to circumstances out of their control?

Again, I have never said remove suicide ganks from the game. But make them more balanced. As it stands, every arguement you make only further prover that the current status quo is in favor of the ganker.

As for your tactics in prenting loss of ships, what if they had shown up in minmatar ships? Would you scan their ships to see which ammo they had loaded before they arrived in the belt? Somehow I don't see that happening. Also, make a fresh character and see how long it takes to train up for a brutix or a cane. Now compare that to how long it takes to train up for a logistics ship which you required in order to keep your Orca alive.

Yet another fact that in my opinion clearly shows that the status quo heavily favors the ganker.

Would you care to explain to how exactly artificially raising the price of minerals increases the demand?

And yes, insurance does directly influence the price of minerals. Two years ago there was such an oversupply of minerals that people where sefldestructing insured Rokhs for profit. As a result, dynamic insurance was introduced.

well, I never said to insure the contents of the freighter, nor that you could. what I'm getting at is that you can get another freighter easier. also, are you stating that it should be harder to suicide gank at the hubs? may I ask why you feel that way? why can't you and other hulk pilots do what i do, which is not mine or preform industry near the major hubs? what's so hard about that?

also, you were complaining that my points were too long... so i'll shorten it for you since apparently you can't separate out what's the point and then what's the reason for doing it.

1. if you can't afford to lose a hulk fly a covetor and don't fit it with deadspace/faction modules.
2. don't fly hulks with deadspace/faction modules
3. don't fly hulks in high traffic areas.

I don't see what's wrong with doing any of those points. and what's funny is you haven't voiced any. you merely implied that it should be harder to gank at the hubs. ok, I'll ask this then. Fail bail, if that is indeed your name, why should it be harder to gank at hubs? why can't you just do your industry away from the hubs? also, I know several people that are big in industry who stop 6 or 7 jumps from a hub and put their stuff up on courier contracts to be carried to the hub. it should be obvious that they put enough collateral on the goods to pay for them if they had gone to market. besides, there's always freighter pilots looking for more courier contracts... it's a part of why we have them to begin with... and those freighter pilots are obviously knowledgeable about the risks, or they wouldn't do so many of them.

EDIT: oh, as for the pilots and if they had shown up in minmatar ships question... I would not have taken my orca out, I would have kept it in dock. if you think that people don't have various intel channels during hulkageddon and share who is where and in what race of ship then you're not as smart are you're trying to be (which is obvious anyway). I only take it out if there's gallante, hybrid based caldari, or amarr ships passing by as I know what to tank for with those.