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A comparison of incomes: how something is broken: Null and High, Solo and Team
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CaiIyn Dove
DMoney Corp
Fraternity.
#1 - 2012-12-25 11:01:22 UTC  |  Edited by: CaiIyn Dove
I have heard that many puppies complaining that their game experience is bad, but "bad" is a term that too vague to reveal anything. After being talked with some people(newbies) in depth, comparing with their experience from other mmo games, the most out-standing issue is that they feel lonely.

I'm not going to talk about that how joining in a corp is not actually a solution. The reason I write this post is trying to reveal that some game mechanism(or design/rules anyway) are neither agree with the spirit of the game, nor beneficial to the reality of the game.


General income: (depends on skill and mission type)
Level 4s(High-sec): 45M(Raven)-75M(High-ends) (No tax avaliable or 5% tax)
Anomalies(Null): 43M(Raven)-77M(High-ends except carrier) (After 15%tax)

Team work:
Level 4s(High-sec): (Raven+Nightmare): about 55M for each pilot, wasting a lot of time on calculating the loots value
Anomalies(Null): (Raven+Nightmare) : about 60M for each pilot
Anomalies(Null): (Nightmare+Nightmare) : about 78M for each pilot


From here we can observe a problem: whether in high-sec or null, if you're in a nightmare, you will have to fleet with a nightmare otherwise you will see a big cut on your income, and even if you fleeting with a nightmare, you can't expect any viable boost.
This feature discourages people to interact with each other, especially for newbies, if they try to positively seek teammates, they will get refused often then disappointed, and stop trying anymore.

Null-sec has DED sites and expeditions, which may make the final income higher than high-sec, but they are unstable therefore difficult to figure out.

Level 4s in null is highly contested and unacceptable to many people, so I not going to talk about it.

The null-sec was expected to has obvious advantage over high-sec, but missions have LPs, and high-sec is much safer for using better gears. Some people may argue about suicide gankers, yeah but this is more for some stupid people and you obviously know how to avoid it, don't you?



Miners:
(max skilled mackinaw with orca bonus)
High-sec: 20M-23M (no tax avaliable with high standing)
Null: 20M-25M (after station tax)

(mackinaw without any bonus)
High-sec: 12M-14M (no tax avaliable with high standing)
Null: 12M-15M (after station tax)

Team work (simply multiplication):
High (2 mackinaws): 24M-28M
High (1 mackinaws+1 orca): 20-23M

from the data you will see, with less than 3 mining alts, mining sololy of each is more profitable than bring an orca alt, so bringing an orca for anyone with less than 3 accounts will be a sacrifice of self-interest.
And for anyone has more than 3 accounts, there is still no benetif/boost/isk-reason to mining with corp-mates. Maybe want to have some buddies to talk with could a "reason", but it is a terrible one as it is the same as the reason you pets(though I agree pets don't talk).


tl;dr
At the moment EVE discourages people, especially newbies to get a fleet in general PVE actives.
Mining income in null is unfairly lower than high-sec, adding up the risk cost.
People have no actual reason to form up a mining fleet.
Randolph Rothstein
whatever corp.
#2 - 2012-12-25 11:07:05 UTC
fleet mining is a social activity not a job,you cant put a price on a time with friends
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#3 - 2012-12-25 11:30:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Funky Lazers
CaiIyn Dove wrote:

At the moment EVE discourages people, especially newbies to get a fleet in general PVE actives.
Mining income in null is unfairly low.
People have no actual reason to form up a mining fleet.


For some reason the worst thing is not about the income, but about wasting time on getting people playing with you.
I have a lot of frineds playing this game, making a fleet with any of them will result in wasting time on travel.
The closest friend is in 26 jumps. How much time will I need to get to him?! Flying without autopilot sucks, I hate manual.

Now multiply this time if you have no friends and not so awesome as me.

Moreover, I did missions/exploration/other pve stuff with friends for some time, it was very boring.
Group PvE in this game is just boring.

Whatever.
raskonalkov
Tie Fighters Inc
#4 - 2012-12-25 11:35:14 UTC
Yeah that is a problem all games or MMOs have. EVE just has it more defined since it takes a lot longer to gain levels or unlock new ships. Other games usually lvl new players faster so they get into a nightmare pretty fast or so. EVE takes forever for someone to get into a good nightmare.

Mining is almost unfair of a comparison. But then again all the professions lvl faster then combat really. So comparing a profession to combat is always gonna look bad.
Dheeradj Nurgle
Hoover Inc.
Snuffed Out
#5 - 2012-12-25 11:40:24 UTC
Randolph Rothstein wrote:
fleet mining is a social activity not a job,you cant put a price on a time with friends


I fully agree. Mining is the worst way to get money, yet the best way to just park your ship there, and trashtalk on TS/Mumble/whatever.
Justin Valentine
Mickey Mouse Club
#6 - 2012-12-25 11:52:05 UTC
CaiIyn Dove wrote:

General income: (depends on skill and mission type)
Level 4s(High-sec): 45M(Raven)-75M(High-ends) (No tax avaliable or 5% tax)
Anomalies(Null): 43M(Raven)-77M(High-ends except carrier) (After 15%tax)

Team work:
Level 4s(High-sec): (Raven+Nightmare): about 55M for each pilot, wasting a lot of time on calculating the loots value
Anomalies(Null): (Raven+Nightmare) : about 60M for each pilot
Anomalies(Null): (Nightmare+Nightmare) : about 78M for each pilot


Show me how you made these numbers for level 4 missions, they look greatly inflated for the average level 4 runner.

On the other hand your numbers for null anomalies is on the shy side, I guess this does not include the juicy faction loots that happen which may be rare but they certainly bump the income.
Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-12-25 15:18:56 UTC
Justin Valentine wrote:
CaiIyn Dove wrote:

General income: (depends on skill and mission type)
Level 4s(High-sec): 45M(Raven)-75M(High-ends) (No tax avaliable or 5% tax)
Anomalies(Null): 43M(Raven)-77M(High-ends except carrier) (After 15%tax)

Team work:
Level 4s(High-sec): (Raven+Nightmare): about 55M for each pilot, wasting a lot of time on calculating the loots value
Anomalies(Null): (Raven+Nightmare) : about 60M for each pilot
Anomalies(Null): (Nightmare+Nightmare) : about 78M for each pilot


Show me how you made these numbers for level 4 missions, they look greatly inflated for the average level 4 runner.

On the other hand your numbers for null anomalies is on the shy side, I guess this does not include the juicy faction loots that happen which may be rare but they certainly bump the income.


Yeah this, im not sure where you get 45m while missioning with a Raven.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#8 - 2012-12-25 15:31:51 UTC
CaiIyn Dove wrote:
I have heard that many puppies complaining that their game experience is bad, but "bad" is a term that too vague to reveal anything. After being talked with some people(newbies) in depth, comparing with their experience from other mmo games, the most out-standing issue is that they feel lonely.

I'm not going to talk about that how joining in a corp is not actually a solution. The reason I write this post is trying to reveal that some game mechanism(or design/rules anyway) are neither agree with the spirit of the game, nor beneficial to the reality of the game.


General income: (depends on skill and mission type)
Level 4s(High-sec): 45M(Raven)-75M(High-ends) (No tax avaliable or 5% tax)
Anomalies(Null): 43M(Raven)-77M(High-ends except carrier) (After 15%tax)

Team work:
Level 4s(High-sec): (Raven+Nightmare): about 55M for each pilot, wasting a lot of time on calculating the loots value
Anomalies(Null): (Raven+Nightmare) : about 60M for each pilot
Anomalies(Null): (Nightmare+Nightmare) : about 78M for each pilot


From here we can observe a problem: whether in high-sec or null, if you're in a nightmare, you will have to fleet with a nightmare otherwise you will see a big cut on your income, and even if you fleeting with a nightmare, you can't expect any viable boost.
This feature discourages people to interact with each other, especially for newbies, if they try to positively seek teammates, they will get refused often then disappointed, and stop trying anymore.

Null-sec has DED sites and expeditions, which may make the final income higher than high-sec, but they are unstable therefore difficult to figure out.

Level 4s in null is highly contested and unacceptable to many people, so I not going to talk about it.

The null-sec was expected to has obvious advantage over high-sec, but missions have LPs, and high-sec is much safer for using better gears. Some people may argue about suicide gankers, yeah but this is more for some stupid people and you obviously know how to avoid it, don't you?



Miners:
(max skilled mackinaw with orca bonus)
High-sec: 20M-23M (no tax avaliable with high standing)
Null: 20M-25M (after station tax)

(mackinaw without any bonus)
High-sec: 12M-14M (no tax avaliable with high standing)
Null: 12M-15M (after station tax)

Team work (simply multiplication):
High (2 mackinaws): 24M-28M
High (1 mackinaws+1 orca): 20-23M

from the data you will see, with less than 3 mining alts, mining sololy of each is more profitable than bring an orca alt, so bringing an orca for anyone with less than 3 accounts will be a sacrifice of self-interest.
And for anyone has more than 3 accounts, there is still no benetif/boost/isk-reason to mining with corp-mates. Maybe want to have some buddies to talk with could a "reason", but it is a terrible one as it is the same as the reason you pets(though I agree pets don't talk).


tl;dr
At the moment EVE discourages people, especially newbies to get a fleet in general PVE actives.
Mining income in null is unfairly lower than high-sec, adding up the risk cost.
People have no actual reason to form up a mining fleet.

In null sec, just as an example, afk cloakers really love it when we run anoms in big groups. Sometimes we get our PVP with our PVE as a result. Fun times.

As for mining in a team, I guess you never heard of mining boosts.

Your TL;DR is funny. Your premise, however, is broken.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#9 - 2012-12-25 15:33:00 UTC
Randolph Rothstein wrote:
fleet mining is a social activity not a job,you cant put a price on a time with friends

Sounds like a blob. A mining blob.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#10 - 2012-12-25 15:42:22 UTC
CaiIyn Dove wrote:


Stuff

tl;dr
At the moment EVE discourages people, especially newbies to get a fleet in general PVE actives.
Mining income in null is unfairly lower than high-sec, adding up the risk cost.
People have no actual reason to form up a mining fleet.


And thanks to hulkageddon, jihaddists, bounties and general anti-social, non-industrialist behavior and all that, we know hi-sec has more risk than null when it comes to mining.

So working as intended.

And there are thousands of mining fleets on a daily basis. They just dont care to advertise, open up or bring in strangers out of fear of inviting warp-in alts for jihad gangs...

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Dar Manic
Dirt Road Services
#11 - 2012-12-25 15:51:08 UTC
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
Justin Valentine wrote:
CaiIyn Dove wrote:

General income: (depends on skill and mission type)
Level 4s(High-sec): 45M(Raven)-75M(High-ends) (No tax avaliable or 5% tax)
Anomalies(Null): 43M(Raven)-77M(High-ends except carrier) (After 15%tax)

Team work:
Level 4s(High-sec): (Raven+Nightmare): about 55M for each pilot, wasting a lot of time on calculating the loots value
Anomalies(Null): (Raven+Nightmare) : about 60M for each pilot
Anomalies(Null): (Nightmare+Nightmare) : about 78M for each pilot


Show me how you made these numbers for level 4 missions, they look greatly inflated for the average level 4 runner.

On the other hand your numbers for null anomalies is on the shy side, I guess this does not include the juicy faction loots that happen which may be rare but they certainly bump the income.


Yeah this, im not sure where you get 45m while missioning with a Raven.


Agreed. Seems like 93.12% of all statistics on the internet are made up to suit the person posting them (just like the one I just made up).

I just don't understand null sec players.

**Please note: **Anytime I use the phrase PvP in a post, I'm talking about shooting/combat/killing things/blowing things up. Thank you.
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-12-25 15:54:23 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Randolph Rothstein wrote:
fleet mining is a social activity not a job,you cant put a price on a time with friends

Sounds like a blob. A mining blob.

Those poor roids, they never saw it comming. How could they defend against such numbers.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
#13 - 2012-12-25 15:59:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Pohbis
So in a game that is almost 100% supply & demand driven, the most profitable activities, are not the most fun or socially engaging.

Hmmm, I wonder why that might be... Roll
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2012-12-25 16:02:43 UTC
Randolph Rothstein wrote:
fleet mining is a social activity not a job,you cant put a price on a time with friends

if how you spend time with friends is mining you don't have friends you have people playing a cruel joke on you

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#15 - 2012-12-25 16:08:47 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Randolph Rothstein wrote:
fleet mining is a social activity not a job,you cant put a price on a time with friends

if how you spend time with friends is mining you don't have friends you have people playing a cruel joke on you

If they're also mining, is it like trying to rickroll yourself?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-12-25 16:10:19 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Randolph Rothstein wrote:
fleet mining is a social activity not a job,you cant put a price on a time with friends

if how you spend time with friends is mining you don't have friends you have people playing a cruel joke on you

Or, you know, different people enjoy doing different things. A shocker. I know.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2012-12-25 16:10:37 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Randolph Rothstein wrote:
fleet mining is a social activity not a job,you cant put a price on a time with friends

if how you spend time with friends is mining you don't have friends you have people playing a cruel joke on you

If they're also mining, is it like trying to rickroll yourself?

i assume they're running a bot

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#18 - 2012-12-25 16:14:02 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Randolph Rothstein wrote:
fleet mining is a social activity not a job,you cant put a price on a time with friends

if how you spend time with friends is mining you don't have friends you have people playing a cruel joke on you

Or, you know, different people enjoy doing different things. A shocker. I know.


someone who enjoys mining cannot really be classified as a person, more a remarkably advanced bot

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#19 - 2012-12-25 16:19:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Weaselior wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Randolph Rothstein wrote:
fleet mining is a social activity not a job,you cant put a price on a time with friends

if how you spend time with friends is mining you don't have friends you have people playing a cruel joke on you

Or, you know, different people enjoy doing different things. A shocker. I know.

someone who enjoys mining cannot really be classified as a person, more a remarkably advanced bot

I wish I could be a bot. I hear we use bots to make up our drake fleets.

If I shoot enough towers with Boat, can I evolve into a blobbot?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Kalen Pavle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2012-12-25 16:31:27 UTC
I like how in order to suit the argument the taxes on high sec and null are different.
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