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The real reason behind the HORRIBLE new NPC AI increase
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Elrich Kouvo
Doomheim
#41 - 2012-12-23 02:10:32 UTC
Mother Ducks wrote:
You mistake High Sec for a place to reside, rather than the playpen that toddlers find themselves in. High Sec's purpose is to teach players the rudimentary aspects of the game in order to enable them to move on. I won't say what is the endgame simply because I find that WH space, Null, and LS have their merits (I've lived in them all). Missions becoming more difficult gears the player to accept a higher skill cap for his everyday capsuleer life. The difficultly in HS missions compared to the rewards of LS, WH, and Null SHOULD pre-empt an internal consideration of "could I make more flying elsewhere?" The answer is yes. It will take some time, but hopefully you L4 lifers will realized the validity of moving somewhere that has more risk but much more reward. Hell, roaming LS I make hundreds of millions an hour just scanning out sites in empty systems. Given I don't so that as a grind but more like a monthly outing, but the message remains the same: High Sec will likely become less and less profitable for the grinders. Adventure waits for you elsewhere! Get with the program and beat the crowd.

What? He said missions not high sec. not all missions are in high sec.
Elrich Kouvo
Doomheim
#42 - 2012-12-23 02:16:55 UTC
Mother Ducks wrote:
Knownasthatguy wrote:
Quote:


You are comparing EvE with SWG? That is hilarious.

Secondly, GTC is a good barometer of how ISK is moving through the game relative to those buying them on the online market. Because of this, your logic is flawed. People can only sell the PLEX for as much as willing to pay for it, and if you pay attention to CCP reports, about 3/4 of PLEX is being withheld due to speculation. If people get poorer on a wide enough scale, you will see PLEX prices go down. CCP is slicing the non-risk Isk faucets to the game. When Incursions took the hit, missions were soon to follow. Before that, anomalies took the hit. Now Moon Goo is being looked at.

By the end of the day, I fully expect ratting, DED sites, anomalies, and WH space to be the best Isk/hr ration of isk in the game (in ascending order) and I think that is acceptable given the risk/reward scheme. I know all the Hisec'ers want to be space rich like everyone else, but your lifestyle lacks the risk to do so. You can be space rich, but you can't be allowed to accumulate the wealth as fast as someone who lacks local (put that one in for you nullbears too!).


If the game is engineered in an isk to risk ratio I would agree, but its not. There is nothing about the price of ships to mission payout that says things are equatable, given the factor of risk due to a new AI. Right now, one cannot "grind" to earn; to grind better, to earn better. The only recourse is to spend "legal tender" because: 1) it's far easier to earn 1.1B in isk in the amount of time it takes to buy/sale it; 2) the mission difficulty to market affordability slope is far too steep; and 3) It's far easier to pay to play than play.

This game can be compared to SWG in terms of broad sweeping changes without over the horizon insight on consequences of such adjustments. Look at the recent patches released, they clearly show CCP coming out with new ideas, then walking them back because they lack the forward thinking required to keep the game from spiraling out of control. The Jita revolt is a prime example of such poor decisions.

I only point these things out because i have 7 years experience playing this game, as such, my observations are exactly what they are; view points from a consumer buying a product that is turning into something different than what I originally purchased.


The Jita Riot was a response to the notion of "Pay to Win" entering the arena, not "Pay to Play." Missions are still an infinite resource of isk within the safety of highsec. The idea is that as you accrue isk, you invest it into your mission boat in order to make the missions less painful as well as go by faster. Now, the same can be said about ratting/missioning/anomalies within Low/NullSec, but those have a significantly higher risk factor. So the argument that "Missions are hard and don't pay enough" is invalid in this conversation. There is no labeled payout line that makes missions worth it, but there should be a definite ceiling to where Low/Null become more profitable than high.

In short, it's not time v money making alone. You have to add in risk v reward. THAT is what justifies these High Sec changes.

A whole lot of ships are lost in high sec during missions so I wouldn't say there is no risk in High sec mission running.
Mother Ducks
Quack LLC
#43 - 2012-12-24 00:05:39 UTC
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
Mother Ducks wrote:
Knownasthatguy wrote:
Quote:


You are comparing EvE with SWG? That is hilarious.

Secondly, GTC is a good barometer of how ISK is moving through the game relative to those buying them on the online market. Because of this, your logic is flawed. People can only sell the PLEX for as much as willing to pay for it, and if you pay attention to CCP reports, about 3/4 of PLEX is being withheld due to speculation. If people get poorer on a wide enough scale, you will see PLEX prices go down. CCP is slicing the non-risk Isk faucets to the game. When Incursions took the hit, missions were soon to follow. Before that, anomalies took the hit. Now Moon Goo is being looked at.

By the end of the day, I fully expect ratting, DED sites, anomalies, and WH space to be the best Isk/hr ration of isk in the game (in ascending order) and I think that is acceptable given the risk/reward scheme. I know all the Hisec'ers want to be space rich like everyone else, but your lifestyle lacks the risk to do so. You can be space rich, but you can't be allowed to accumulate the wealth as fast as someone who lacks local (put that one in for you nullbears too!).


If the game is engineered in an isk to risk ratio I would agree, but its not. There is nothing about the price of ships to mission payout that says things are equatable, given the factor of risk due to a new AI. Right now, one cannot "grind" to earn; to grind better, to earn better. The only recourse is to spend "legal tender" because: 1) it's far easier to earn 1.1B in isk in the amount of time it takes to buy/sale it; 2) the mission difficulty to market affordability slope is far too steep; and 3) It's far easier to pay to play than play.

This game can be compared to SWG in terms of broad sweeping changes without over the horizon insight on consequences of such adjustments. Look at the recent patches released, they clearly show CCP coming out with new ideas, then walking them back because they lack the forward thinking required to keep the game from spiraling out of control. The Jita revolt is a prime example of such poor decisions.

I only point these things out because i have 7 years experience playing this game, as such, my observations are exactly what they are; view points from a consumer buying a product that is turning into something different than what I originally purchased.


The Jita Riot was a response to the notion of "Pay to Win" entering the arena, not "Pay to Play." Missions are still an infinite resource of isk within the safety of highsec. The idea is that as you accrue isk, you invest it into your mission boat in order to make the missions less painful as well as go by faster. Now, the same can be said about ratting/missioning/anomalies within Low/NullSec, but those have a significantly higher risk factor. So the argument that "Missions are hard and don't pay enough" is invalid in this conversation. There is no labeled payout line that makes missions worth it, but there should be a definite ceiling to where Low/Null become more profitable than high.

In short, it's not time v money making alone. You have to add in risk v reward. THAT is what justifies these High Sec changes.

A whole lot of ships are lost in high sec during missions so I wouldn't say there is no risk in High sec mission running.


I did not say that there was no risk in High Sec. Missions themselves create risk as do Mission Suiciders. War Decs and Loot thieves do not enter the equation as they exist in all space. The Risk v Reward Argument is valid whether you like it or not. The only place risk has a "0" value would be while docked in station and having no interaction with the Market nor Corporations.
Lonig
Destruction Unlimited
#44 - 2012-12-24 15:13:13 UTC
Off Topic slighty: PLEX is bought by someone,somewhere for MORE than a standard subscription. Market fees related to selling the PLEX actually take isk OUT of the game. PLEX is thus healthy and a genius item. I'll never understand how people don't understand that. PLEX will move up or down depending on demand.

More on topic: Due to AI and drone changes, PLEX won't go down in price. Why? Because most missioners aren't affected in any substantial way. Matter of fact, unless you literally have only drone skills and nothing else, I doubt many players quit either. They'll simply swap to turrent/missile boats and throw in salvage drones instead of lights. That's what I've done, and I am back to decent speed L4s again.

Even the AI changes don't affect my drone boat much. Like any sane drone user, I use sentries 99% of the time. I put a small armor rep on my domi, target a sentry and rep him, and never lost aggro once in the ~15 or so L4s I've done since patch. I only have 4 turrents on that domi too, with 1 turrent per target. Only real reason I've switched to a missile boat is that I'm rather tired of not being able to use anything but those sentries. But I can still do it rather easily if I wanted to.

So, as always, adapt or die. The changes suck imo, but they aren't game crashing. Some missions are worse than others, but for the most part this isn't that big a deal. I've had to warp out twice so far, and that was because I was fit for gank or tank at the time.

No conspiracy needed. CCP make a smart change that should have been done years ago. The AI now requires you to... think. WH pilots have had this pleasure for quite awhile. It adds strategy to the game. The drone boats being this affected was obviously an oversight on CCPs part(even tho test forum was ablaze long before deployment), but overall these changes will load to more involved gameplay. Apparently CCP wasn't happy making sub fees from afk mining/drone folks, and all of us should be thankful they are willing to risk to lose those "players". A more involved pbase is a good thing.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2012-12-24 16:44:27 UTC
Lonig wrote:
Off Topic slighty: PLEX is bought by someone,somewhere for MORE than a standard subscription. Market fees related to selling the PLEX actually take isk OUT of the game. PLEX is thus healthy and a genius item. I'll never understand how people don't understand that. PLEX will move up or down depending on demand.


Outside of the transaction fees (brokers fees, taxes) PLEX does NOT take isk out of the game. It just moves isk from one player to another.

Does someone need to link an isk sink primer again?
Lonig
Destruction Unlimited
#46 - 2012-12-24 17:00:35 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Lonig wrote:
Off Topic slighty: PLEX is bought by someone,somewhere for MORE than a standard subscription. Market fees related to selling the PLEX actually take isk OUT of the game. PLEX is thus healthy and a genius item. I'll never understand how people don't understand that. PLEX will move up or down depending on demand.


Outside of the transaction fees (brokers fees, taxes) PLEX does NOT take isk out of the game. It just moves isk from one player to another.

Does someone need to link an isk sink primer again?


Umm... Read wtf I wrote and get back to me?

Market fee = transaction fee

Isk removed, is isk removed. Doesn't matter if it is .005% or 50%. It still removes isk from the game, which is a good thing.
Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2012-12-24 17:06:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Keko Khaan
Mother Ducks wrote:
Knownasthatguy wrote:
Quote:


You are comparing EvE with SWG? That is hilarious.

Secondly, GTC is a good barometer of how ISK is moving through the game relative to those buying them on the online market. Because of this, your logic is flawed. People can only sell the PLEX for as much as willing to pay for it, and if you pay attention to CCP reports, about 3/4 of PLEX is being withheld due to speculation. If people get poorer on a wide enough scale, you will see PLEX prices go down. CCP is slicing the non-risk Isk faucets to the game. When Incursions took the hit, missions were soon to follow. Before that, anomalies took the hit. Now Moon Goo is being looked at.

By the end of the day, I fully expect ratting, DED sites, anomalies, and WH space to be the best Isk/hr ration of isk in the game (in ascending order) and I think that is acceptable given the risk/reward scheme. I know all the Hisec'ers want to be space rich like everyone else, but your lifestyle lacks the risk to do so. You can be space rich, but you can't be allowed to accumulate the wealth as fast as someone who lacks local (put that one in for you nullbears too!).


If the game is engineered in an isk to risk ratio I would agree, but its not. There is nothing about the price of ships to mission payout that says things are equatable, given the factor of risk due to a new AI. Right now, one cannot "grind" to earn; to grind better, to earn better. The only recourse is to spend "legal tender" because: 1) it's far easier to earn 1.1B in isk in the amount of time it takes to buy/sale it; 2) the mission difficulty to market affordability slope is far too steep; and 3) It's far easier to pay to play than play.

This game can be compared to SWG in terms of broad sweeping changes without over the horizon insight on consequences of such adjustments. Look at the recent patches released, they clearly show CCP coming out with new ideas, then walking them back because they lack the forward thinking required to keep the game from spiraling out of control. The Jita revolt is a prime example of such poor decisions.

I only point these things out because i have 7 years experience playing this game, as such, my observations are exactly what they are; view points from a consumer buying a product that is turning into something different than what I originally purchased.


The Jita Riot was a response to the notion of "Pay to Win" entering the arena, not "Pay to Play." Missions are still an infinite resource of isk within the safety of highsec. The idea is that as you accrue isk, you invest it into your mission boat in order to make the missions less painful as well as go by faster. Now, the same can be said about ratting/missioning/anomalies within Low/NullSec, but those have a significantly higher risk factor. So the argument that "Missions are hard and don't pay enough" is invalid in this conversation. There is no labeled payout line that makes missions worth it, but there should be a definite ceiling to where Low/Null become more profitable than high.

In short, it's not time v money making alone. You have to add in risk v reward. THAT is what justifies these High Sec changes.


Im sorry but you dont have any clue what you talking about. These changes are not highsec changes. These changes affects all rats. Including the ones in null. So you fail.. Null pve got nerfed just as much as high sec. So maybe try again..
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#48 - 2012-12-24 17:11:52 UTC
this thread has way more pages than it deserves.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2012-12-24 17:57:05 UTC
Lonig wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Lonig wrote:
Off Topic slighty: PLEX is bought by someone,somewhere for MORE than a standard subscription. Market fees related to selling the PLEX actually take isk OUT of the game. PLEX is thus healthy and a genius item. I'll never understand how people don't understand that. PLEX will move up or down depending on demand.


Outside of the transaction fees (brokers fees, taxes) PLEX does NOT take isk out of the game. It just moves isk from one player to another.

Does someone need to link an isk sink primer again?


Umm... Read wtf I wrote and get back to me?

Market fee = transaction fee

Isk removed, is isk removed. Doesn't matter if it is .005% or 50%. It still removes isk from the game, which is a good thing.


Umm, I did read what you wrote, and since you did not include any details it's fair to surmize you may have been one of the MANY EVE players who wrongly consider PLEX in whole to be an isk sink. In that vein I was merely clarifying what you had wrote, since you did not bother to elaborate on the details to make it clear.
Mother Ducks
Quack LLC
#50 - 2012-12-24 18:15:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Mother Ducks
Keko Khaan wrote:
Mother Ducks wrote:
Knownasthatguy wrote:
Quote:


You are comparing EvE with SWG? That is hilarious.

Secondly, GTC is a good barometer of how ISK is moving through the game relative to those buying them on the online market. Because of this, your logic is flawed. People can only sell the PLEX for as much as willing to pay for it, and if you pay attention to CCP reports, about 3/4 of PLEX is being withheld due to speculation. If people get poorer on a wide enough scale, you will see PLEX prices go down. CCP is slicing the non-risk Isk faucets to the game. When Incursions took the hit, missions were soon to follow. Before that, anomalies took the hit. Now Moon Goo is being looked at.

By the end of the day, I fully expect ratting, DED sites, anomalies, and WH space to be the best Isk/hr ration of isk in the game (in ascending order) and I think that is acceptable given the risk/reward scheme. I know all the Hisec'ers want to be space rich like everyone else, but your lifestyle lacks the risk to do so. You can be space rich, but you can't be allowed to accumulate the wealth as fast as someone who lacks local (put that one in for you nullbears too!).


If the game is engineered in an isk to risk ratio I would agree, but its not. There is nothing about the price of ships to mission payout that says things are equatable, given the factor of risk due to a new AI. Right now, one cannot "grind" to earn; to grind better, to earn better. The only recourse is to spend "legal tender" because: 1) it's far easier to earn 1.1B in isk in the amount of time it takes to buy/sale it; 2) the mission difficulty to market affordability slope is far too steep; and 3) It's far easier to pay to play than play.

This game can be compared to SWG in terms of broad sweeping changes without over the horizon insight on consequences of such adjustments. Look at the recent patches released, they clearly show CCP coming out with new ideas, then walking them back because they lack the forward thinking required to keep the game from spiraling out of control. The Jita revolt is a prime example of such poor decisions.

I only point these things out because i have 7 years experience playing this game, as such, my observations are exactly what they are; view points from a consumer buying a product that is turning into something different than what I originally purchased.


The Jita Riot was a response to the notion of "Pay to Win" entering the arena, not "Pay to Play." Missions are still an infinite resource of isk within the safety of highsec. The idea is that as you accrue isk, you invest it into your mission boat in order to make the missions less painful as well as go by faster. Now, the same can be said about ratting/missioning/anomalies within Low/NullSec, but those have a significantly higher risk factor. So the argument that "Missions are hard and don't pay enough" is invalid in this conversation. There is no labeled payout line that makes missions worth it, but there should be a definite ceiling to where Low/Null become more profitable than high.

In short, it's not time v money making alone. You have to add in risk v reward. THAT is what justifies these High Sec changes.


Im sorry but you dont have any clue what you talking about. These changes are not highsec changes. These changes affects all rats. Including the ones in null. So you fail.. Null pve got nerfed just as much as high sec. So maybe try again..


If you are using drones in Null as primary DPS, I do hope you are using Sentries, and if you are using sentries, I hope you have a proper snipe fit to hit from over 70km+ (or hell, 100km+) from the spawn point, which you sentries will be mostly safe from incoming barrages. PvE isn't supposed to be an AFK fest. You see a drone getting hit, pull him in or RR him.

I will agree that most of my argument thus far has been from the HS standpoint, but this does not take away the merit of the conversation. As a WH dweller, this AI is old and boring to me. QQ more.
Ginger Barbarella
#51 - 2012-12-24 18:22:09 UTC
Why the heck can't we block or down-vote entire threads yet? I just wasted 8 seconds reading the OP's post.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2012-12-25 11:13:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Keko Khaan
Mother Ducks wrote:
Keko Khaan wrote:
Mother Ducks wrote:
Knownasthatguy wrote:
Quote:


You are comparing EvE with SWG? That is hilarious.

Secondly, GTC is a good barometer of how ISK is moving through the game relative to those buying them on the online market. Because of this, your logic is flawed. People can only sell the PLEX for as much as willing to pay for it, and if you pay attention to CCP reports, about 3/4 of PLEX is being withheld due to speculation. If people get poorer on a wide enough scale, you will see PLEX prices go down. CCP is slicing the non-risk Isk faucets to the game. When Incursions took the hit, missions were soon to follow. Before that, anomalies took the hit. Now Moon Goo is being looked at.

By the end of the day, I fully expect ratting, DED sites, anomalies, and WH space to be the best Isk/hr ration of isk in the game (in ascending order) and I think that is acceptable given the risk/reward scheme. I know all the Hisec'ers want to be space rich like everyone else, but your lifestyle lacks the risk to do so. You can be space rich, but you can't be allowed to accumulate the wealth as fast as someone who lacks local (put that one in for you nullbears too!).


If the game is engineered in an isk to risk ratio I would agree, but its not. There is nothing about the price of ships to mission payout that says things are equatable, given the factor of risk due to a new AI. Right now, one cannot "grind" to earn; to grind better, to earn better. The only recourse is to spend "legal tender" because: 1) it's far easier to earn 1.1B in isk in the amount of time it takes to buy/sale it; 2) the mission difficulty to market affordability slope is far too steep; and 3) It's far easier to pay to play than play.

This game can be compared to SWG in terms of broad sweeping changes without over the horizon insight on consequences of such adjustments. Look at the recent patches released, they clearly show CCP coming out with new ideas, then walking them back because they lack the forward thinking required to keep the game from spiraling out of control. The Jita revolt is a prime example of such poor decisions.

I only point these things out because i have 7 years experience playing this game, as such, my observations are exactly what they are; view points from a consumer buying a product that is turning into something different than what I originally purchased.


The Jita Riot was a response to the notion of "Pay to Win" entering the arena, not "Pay to Play." Missions are still an infinite resource of isk within the safety of highsec. The idea is that as you accrue isk, you invest it into your mission boat in order to make the missions less painful as well as go by faster. Now, the same can be said about ratting/missioning/anomalies within Low/NullSec, but those have a significantly higher risk factor. So the argument that "Missions are hard and don't pay enough" is invalid in this conversation. There is no labeled payout line that makes missions worth it, but there should be a definite ceiling to where Low/Null become more profitable than high.

In short, it's not time v money making alone. You have to add in risk v reward. THAT is what justifies these High Sec changes.


Im sorry but you dont have any clue what you talking about. These changes are not highsec changes. These changes affects all rats. Including the ones in null. So you fail.. Null pve got nerfed just as much as high sec. So maybe try again..


If you are using drones in Null as primary DPS, I do hope you are using Sentries, and if you are using sentries, I hope you have a proper snipe fit to hit from over 70km+ (or hell, 100km+) from the spawn point, which you sentries will be mostly safe from incoming barrages. PvE isn't supposed to be an AFK fest. You see a drone getting hit, pull him in or RR him.

I will agree that most of my argument thus far has been from the HS standpoint, but this does not take away the merit of the conversation. As a WH dweller, this AI is old and boring to me. QQ more.


Well maybe i exaggerated bit.. Maybe you have some clue. Im just tired of this whinery about "hisec pve nerf". When its actually all pve nerf that includes npc rats.

Anyways my fotm after retibution is vargur and support sentry domi alt for anoms . Or ham tengu and support sentry domi alt for escalations and ded sites.

Vargur usually keeps agro pretty nice in anoms as hes sitting zero at npc spawnpoint. He gets agro not only by being close to spawn but also by aggressing rats first and having bigger sig than armor domi (not sure if sig matters anymore). Sometimes npc swap agro to domi or sentry but its no biggie with 1700dps on field.. Also ive been able to use small/med drones only to kill frigs. But heavy drones are the ones i cant really use anymore. Few heavies usually "insta pops" if i take em out of bay. Also sites with high npc dps are problem for domi alt as he cant tank switching agro even in dual rep cap stable fit..

Anyways i do hate new AI but i will survive.. Also i have luxury of angel rats so i dont know about damping and td'ing after retribution...
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#53 - 2012-12-25 11:21:20 UTC
Knownasthatguy wrote:
Guys and gals, CCP has no motive to fix this, or anything else in this game that one does to make isk. They just want you to buy plexes and GTCs. Its a cash cow for them. Why would they change?


Stop blaming ccp because you are bad at eve and need plex to make isk, also not their fault you are poor irl. You suck at eve because you are dump, and you are poor because you are to dumb and lazy to get a job.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Josef Djugashvilis
#54 - 2012-12-25 14:25:54 UTC
dexington wrote:
Knownasthatguy wrote:
Guys and gals, CCP has no motive to fix this, or anything else in this game that one does to make isk. They just want you to buy plexes and GTCs. Its a cash cow for them. Why would they change?


Stop blaming ccp because you are bad at eve and need plex to make isk, also not their fault you are poor irl. You suck at eve because you are dump, and you are poor because you are to dumb and lazy to get a job.


Dear Dexington, one can only hope that by the time you are old enough to actually get a job, you will have also matured a bit.

This is not a signature.
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