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medium armor reppers rep a pathetic amount of armor
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Darius Brinn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2012-12-25 00:20:35 UTC
Ivan Joukov wrote:
And buffer tanking shield is far worst than armor one, and shield do not have slave implants, etc... Shield and armor are DIFFERENT, get used to it.


No it's not. Buffer shield is at the very least, equal to armor buffer tank.

It recharges itself, and even more important: shield rigs and extenders do not turn your ship into a sluggish brick by killing your speed and agility.

Armor rigs and plates do, and mobility is king. In most situations, I consider the drawbacks of buffer armor tanking to be much worse than those of shield buffer tanking. Signature penalties cann be important, but kinda meh on Cruiser sizes and above.
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#22 - 2012-12-25 00:21:17 UTC
Yeah active armor tanking is bad the modules being bad is just one of the reasons, there are many reasons that contribute to armor tanking fail, however armor does still have the edge over shield when it comes to buffer tank, as armor ships can almost always field a better EHP even before slaves which is probably the reason for armor dominance in caps/supercaps where EHP runs into the millions.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#23 - 2012-12-25 00:49:02 UTC
All fits used in this post include a damage control, long point, 10mn MWD and a web. All fits use T1 buffer rigs and either T2 or meta4 modules. All fits are usable in an actual fight, no absurd bricks and nothing that sacrifices large amounts of tank for a bit of extra damage. All fits include at least 2 damage or tracking mods. Buffer modules were LSE IIs and 800mm T2 or meta4 plates, depending on what would fit.

Maller wrote:

Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Adaptive Nano Plating II

J5 Prototype Warp Disruptor I
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


It has 31,341 Effective Hitpoints.

Then swap the ANP II for a MAR II, you now have 26,722 EHP and 83/sec repair. Now for some maths.

31,341 - 26,722 = 4,619 EHP loss.
4,619/83 = 55 seconds to repair the difference.

Add a Legion booster and it becomes 48,860 EHP vs 41,955 EHP and 197/sec repair, and it now takes 35 seconds to repair the difference.

For comparison,

Moa (has the same resist bonus):
Buffer fit: 35,291 EHP
Repper fit: 26,858 EHP and 52/sec repair. 162 sec to repair the difference
Tengu booster buffer: 54,606 EHP
Tengu booster repper: 42,297 EHP w/ 93/sec repair. 132 sec to repair the difference.

Vexor:
Buffer: 26,531 EHP
Repper fit: 22,003 EHP, 83/sec. 73sec
Legion boosts: 39,416 EHP
Legion boosts, repper: 32,727 EHP, 147/sec. 45sec to repair the difference.

Rupture (shield):
B: 20,971 EHP
R: 13,104, 59/sec. 133sec
Tengu boosts: 30,925 EHP
R: 16,973 EHP, 134/sec, 104sec

Rupture (armour):
B: 22,959
R: 20,566, 62/sec, 38 seconds
boost B: 34,702
boost R: 30,857, 147/sec, 26 seconds

The Rupture and Maller can both fit 1600mm plates quite comfortably.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#24 - 2012-12-25 01:00:31 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Rupture (shield):
B: 20,971 EHP
R: 13,104, 59/sec. 133sec
Tengu boosts: 30,925 EHP
R: 16,973 EHP, 134/sec, 104sec

Rupture (armour):
B: 22,959
R: 20,566, 62/sec, 38 seconds
Legion boost B: 34,702
boost R: 30,857, 147/sec, 26 seconds


This I think is the important comparison, although the numbers are incorrect, because they use an 800mm plate where most people would (I assume) use the 1600mm plate that fits, although you then have to downgrade to an 800mm plate to fit the repper. Adjusting for this, we get:

Rupture (1600mm plate, 800mm plate w/ repper):
B: 31,205 EHP
R: 20,566, 62/sec, 38 seconds, 171 seconds
Boost B: 49,113 EHP
Boost R: 30,857 EHP, 232/sec, 78 sec

Looks to me like the 1600mm plate provides a significantly better tank than any other fit. 31,205 EHP is almost half again the EHP tank that you can get by shield tanking it, and it takes too long to repair the difference in armour (not enough cap to do it anyway).

Addressing the OP: Medium armour repairers seem to be better than medium shield boosters, and it looks to me like active tanking works just fine in small engagements. ASBs aside (because they are OP) this seems fine to me.
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#25 - 2012-12-25 01:28:51 UTC
One of the issues with active tanking in general is the role it is trying to fill in PVP. Its used almost exclusively for solo work sub-cap. When using local tank you are banking heavily on your rep beating incoming damage whilst you kill the target before help arrives. It's a big ask.

On smaller ships local reps can be viable because of the damage mitigation from size and speed. Conversely on capitals the local tank can prove enough to withstand heavy damage. The middle ground, however, is difficult. Your targets are likely to take longer to kill and you will be typically less mobile than a frigate whilst you local tank will be a bit meh.

Given the proliferation of Minmattar ships filling a small gang or solo PVP role you will also find energy neuts as a real problem too.

The risk of boosting the MAR too greatly is that you will see ships like the tri-rep Myrm with lol-tanks. Remember that serious players will use boost alts, drugs and implants to really max out those stats. IIRC a fully boosted and overloaded Myrm can tank over 1400 dps already.

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#26 - 2012-12-25 01:39:54 UTC
I think its funny ASB is still being called OP even after a massive nerf post-retribution.

Just an innocent observation.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#27 - 2012-12-25 03:04:51 UTC
Kery Nysell wrote:
So I was wrong.

Like I said, just reactivated after a two-years break, I *don't* know everything Shocked

Will have to do more tests ...


Then don't make posts on the forums advising/stating things that you have no idea about. Read the thread and play with EFT instead.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#28 - 2012-12-25 03:10:05 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Yeah active armor tanking is bad the modules being bad is just one of the reasons, there are many reasons that contribute to armor tanking fail, however armor does still have the edge over shield when it comes to buffer tank, as armor ships can almost always field a better EHP even before slaves which is probably the reason for armor dominance in caps/supercaps where EHP runs into the millions.


I would normally be inclined to agree, however watching a lot of dual rep video's these days is actually starting to look like it's viable - simply because against a larger group of sub-bs ships with buffers, they tend to die quite quickly. The legions boosts make this insanely good.

I completely agree that a totally brick-buffer fit is insanely better in terms of raw HP against the delayed-EHP of a repper fit, not to mention the reduced number of slots it uses (opening up damage mod spaces). But a lot of people are slamming LSE's onto their ships then just putting damage mods and tracking enhancers onto the lows. If you can overload for a few cycles to keep up with the DPS, the ship generally goes down.

The real disadvantage comes when you meet 5 BC size ships all with 50k buffers and 3x damage mods... but nothing will save you at that point... active or passive.
bubble trout
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2012-12-25 03:49:47 UTC
Cambarus wrote:

Larger sig makes next to no difference, because its main drawback is making you easier to track. You know what else makes you easier to track? Being slower.



There are more than a few fits that rely on smaller sig, to reduce incoming damage, or break tracking altogether. Duel prop sfi comes to mind, as do ahacs.


In my mind shield and armor buffer tanking are fairly even, each have their strong points.

Active tanking however isn't really close especially for med armor reps and the cost of large (and xlarge) shield boosters fitted to ships of the same class.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#30 - 2012-12-25 04:55:10 UTC
It is quite possible to fit a Myrmidon to have a passive shield regeneration of over 400 points per second.

I'd like to see someone try to top this with any amount of cap-stable armor repair.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Umega
Solis Mensa
#31 - 2012-12-25 04:56:23 UTC
I see some people are still as dumb as ever.

Dual-web, SD, TD, TC ships would all like to have a word with you. If you really want a legitament PvP-active shield tank, you can kiss all of those goodbye. To those that want to comment how shield tanking promotes better 'dmg projection'.. please, continue.. it's amusing me.

And we can ignore how energized 'omni' plating doesn't cost cap, when invuln field does.. I suppose.

While we're ignoring and forgetting some things.. we should toss out how medium size SBs do not compete with equalivent sized ARs. When overheated.. this becomes even more pronounced. But we should ignore that.. along with the increased fitting costs of jumping a size up in SBs.

When the ASB candy is gone.. so is the reppin'. Bursting is great, for a limited time. Something that say, can last a cargo hold, and doesn't have to sacrifice one of it's resist spots to keep the candy cap flowing.. can be a good thing. But whatever.

Active armor rigs are better than active shield rep rigs.. yeah, I know. We got to forget about that for this thread to continue on it's current path.

TD/active MARs Myrm sucks.. and no reason to pretend otherwise..

Now.. someone quote this thread, and follow it up with a 'rock/paper/sissors' counter-arguement. Yeah, I remember how this forum works.

Remember, kids. Diversity really is a good thing. I prefer vibrant color, not simply black'n'white.

 Ume-Pro Studios
Vixorz
Cabronazos
#32 - 2012-12-25 05:11:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Vixorz
This thread was about active armor tank and you guys derailed it completely. ¬¬

Katran Luftschreck wrote:
It is quite possible to fit a Myrmidon to have a passive shield regeneration of over 400 points per second.

I'd like to see someone try to top this with any amount of cap-stable armor repair.


Actually with three repper it tanks about that before OH: http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/3769/triarmorrepmyrm.png

[Myrmidon, PvP Triple Rep]

Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I

Hobgoblin II x1
Hammerhead II x2
Ogre II x2
Warrior II x5

(And if you were talking about PVE, there is another fit with only 2 reppers that tanks more)

The thing is, it's a bit sad that you need a ship with a 37,5% total bonus and three reppers to be competent at active armor tanking. I don't know what CCP has up their sleeve, but i hope it's not an OP new module again.

Taking a look at the numbers of the 3 subcapital armor reppers i'm not quite sure if the problem is in the modules...

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/2694/reppers.png

... but i wouldn't want a solution that implies giving bonuses to all armor ships... that would be a pathetic solution imho.

In any case, i don't have previous experience besides ASB in active shield tanking. (Gallente here) But i think if we want to compare active tanking between armor and shield we should compare it against conventional shield boosters fits. ASB's are just an aberration and there is nothing equivalent in armor to compare it with.
Angang Ostus
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2012-12-25 06:21:53 UTC
A Cyclone can fit a LSB and a cap booster for excellent EHP, but due to the powergrid reqs a Brutix is stuck with MAR. The cap drain of armor reps are less so maybe if the pg of armor reppers was reduced so that a reactor control would allow you to fit a large then you could get similar performance to the Cyclone from the two slots.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#34 - 2012-12-25 07:24:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Random note.
CCP Devs have said themselves Armour tanking needs a look at, believe it was somewhere in the BC Dev blog, or possibily the missile changes when looking at the Drake. So arguing 'It's all fine, it's in your mind, they are equal' doesn't really hold water anymore.
It will be looked at 'soon'.
As part of Tiericide somewhere.
And to that tripple repper 'cap stable' fit. Cap Boosters are NOT cap stable. They simply buy you additional time till you run out of charges, then your Cap regen is in the sink, and you cap out in a couple of minutes. Cap stable = actual regen rate.
Umega
Solis Mensa
#35 - 2012-12-25 07:28:32 UTC
Is this thread also going to spawn the arguement of how DCU gives better armor resists than shield resist, ontop of the 60%-omni to structure when the two armor tanking (Gall/Amarr) have more structure hp than the other two?

I'm jus' sayin'.. since people want to start bringing up shield regen. Might as well bring up other outside variables as well into this.. you know, like how the extra resists and structure ehp = more total ehp.. AND makes armor tanking a better option for remote rep'ing.

 Ume-Pro Studios
Vixorz
Cabronazos
#36 - 2012-12-25 08:01:17 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

And to that tripple repper 'cap stable' fit. Cap Boosters are NOT cap stable. They simply buy you additional time till you run out of charges, then your Cap regen is in the sink, and you cap out in a couple of minutes. Cap stable = actual regen rate.


You didn't look at my other fit, did you?
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-12-25 09:53:37 UTC
Umega wrote:
While we're ignoring and forgetting some things.. we should toss out how medium size SBs do not compete with equalivent sized ARs. When overheated.. this becomes even more pronounced. But we should ignore that.. along with the increased fitting costs of jumping a size up in SBs.


Do you really think fitting XL SB on Cyclone is difficult?

Myrm with just one Large Armor Repairer II, no other mods or implants used:

PG: 2300/1468,75

[Myrmidon, Myrmidon fit]

Large Armor Repairer II
[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]
[Empty Low slot]

[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]

[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#38 - 2012-12-25 10:24:09 UTC
med reps are fine, lrn2resists.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#39 - 2012-12-25 10:38:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Jack Miton wrote:
med reps are fine, lrn2resists.


Myrmidon (Corpum A-Type MAR , 2x Armor Explosive Hardener, 1x Armor Kinetic Hardener, 1x Armor Thermic hardener, 1x Armor EM Hardener, 2x T2 Nano Pump, 1x T1 Nano Pump):
428,2 hp/s omni

Cyclone (X-Large Shield Booster II, 2x Invul, 1x EM Ward Field):
524,2 hp/s omni

Cyclone (X-Large ASB, 2x Invul, 1x EM Ward Field):
1070,3 hp/s omni
Klown Walk
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#40 - 2012-12-25 12:24:38 UTC
Active shield tanking is not really any better than armor tanking. Normal shield boosting isn't good enough without implants and links, ASB works somewhat but it's very limited and you have to use more than one or an oversized booster on most ships.