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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1041 - 2012-12-24 22:03:39 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Perfect refine in highsec stations should only be available to people in Faction Warfare corps. A reward for actually fighting for highsec NPC empires. Everyone else should peak out at 2-3% refine tax. Again, to pay for all those awesome stations and NPC police.

Honestly, people will grind a FW alt (Caldari) and have it do nothing but sit in a station (in Jita) and refine for them. Never undocking.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#1042 - 2012-12-24 22:04:45 UTC
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:
All that matters is the relative reward-risk factor. You don't need to nerf hisec when you can just buff low and null. And then if you're a low or null player you can laugh at how much you're making as compared to the hiseccers.


That said, a nerf to highsec is better than a buff to lo/null/wh for the economy since it avoids income inflation.

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#1043 - 2012-12-24 22:36:27 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:
All that matters is the relative reward-risk factor. You don't need to nerf hisec when you can just buff low and null. And then if you're a low or null player you can laugh at how much you're making as compared to the hiseccers.


That said, a nerf to highsec is better than a buff to lo/null/wh for the economy since it avoids income inflation.


Depends on how you do it. Buffing null industrial capabilities is heavily needed, this can be done without touching high-sec nor does it directly effect income inflation. A revert of the anomoly nerf would cause inflation but at the same time might actually boost null participation. Low on the other hand I donno, its the bastard middle child.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Wolverine Stormrider
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1044 - 2012-12-24 22:40:00 UTC
Oh dear lord, is the hate against Hi-Sec still going on? It's been going since the tail end of beta and every time I've poked my head into the game.

So if there is actually a problem with Hi-Low-Null-WH then everyone should be focused on getting 'em fixed. Not branding about how Hi-Sec is a witch and she needs to be burned at the stake since that has been done to death since beta ended.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1045 - 2012-12-24 22:42:22 UTC
Wolverine Stormrider wrote:
Oh dear lord, is the hate against Hi-Sec still going on? It's been going since the tail end of beta and every time I've poked my head into the game.

So if there is actually a problem with Hi-Low-Null-WH then everyone should be focused on getting 'em fixed. Not branding about how Hi-Sec is a witch and she needs to be burned at the stake since that has been done to death since beta ended.

Because god forbid you read anything posted in the thread?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1046 - 2012-12-24 22:56:32 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Well, the highsec champios like to equate highsec with a civilized big city.

So how about they have the taxes one would expect in a civilized big city? If you aren't expected to fight for it, you should at least be expected to pay for it.

How about some of these changes;

Players in NPC corps only get 1 factory slot and only in the school stations. It will be cheap and enough for them to do the industry tutorials.

All other players can only use slots in NPC stations that they have good standings with. The slot rental fees should be 10x what they are now and can be brought down with better standings. Seriously, 1000install/333hr is stupidly cheap and not any where near what people in a highly developed big city with unbeatable cops should be paying.

Perfect refine in highsec stations should only be available to people in Faction Warfare corps. A reward for actually fighting for highsec NPC empires. Everyone else should peak out at 2-3% refine tax. Again, to pay for all those awesome stations and NPC police.


As one who campaigned *and achieved* 4 nerfs (3 on L4 missions and 1 on incursions) I can say you don't know how convincingly to ask for a nerf. When I am done partying for Christmas I am going to post an example about how it's done.

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1047 - 2012-12-24 23:04:49 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Well, the highsec champios like to equate highsec with a civilized big city.

So how about they have the taxes one would expect in a civilized big city? If you aren't expected to fight for it, you should at least be expected to pay for it.

How about some of these changes;

Players in NPC corps only get 1 factory slot and only in the school stations. It will be cheap and enough for them to do the industry tutorials.

All other players can only use slots in NPC stations that they have good standings with. The slot rental fees should be 10x what they are now and can be brought down with better standings. Seriously, 1000install/333hr is stupidly cheap and not any where near what people in a highly developed big city with unbeatable cops should be paying.

Perfect refine in highsec stations should only be available to people in Faction Warfare corps. A reward for actually fighting for highsec NPC empires. Everyone else should peak out at 2-3% refine tax. Again, to pay for all those awesome stations and NPC police.


As one who campaigned *and achieved* 4 nerfs (3 on L4 missions and 1 on incursions) I can say you don't know how convincingly to ask for a nerf. When I am done partying for Christmas I am going to post an example about how it's done.

You're suggesting this had anything to do with your efforts as opposed to CCP recognizing the necessity of a nerf?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1048 - 2012-12-24 23:13:30 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Well, the highsec champios like to equate highsec with a civilized big city.

So how about they have the taxes one would expect in a civilized big city? If you aren't expected to fight for it, you should at least be expected to pay for it.

How about some of these changes;

Players in NPC corps only get 1 factory slot and only in the school stations. It will be cheap and enough for them to do the industry tutorials.

All other players can only use slots in NPC stations that they have good standings with. The slot rental fees should be 10x what they are now and can be brought down with better standings. Seriously, 1000install/333hr is stupidly cheap and not any where near what people in a highly developed big city with unbeatable cops should be paying.

Perfect refine in highsec stations should only be available to people in Faction Warfare corps. A reward for actually fighting for highsec NPC empires. Everyone else should peak out at 2-3% refine tax. Again, to pay for all those awesome stations and NPC police.


As one who campaigned *and achieved* 4 nerfs (3 on L4 missions and 1 on incursions) I can say you don't know how convincingly to ask for a nerf. When I am done partying for Christmas I am going to post an example about how it's done.

You're suggesting this had anything to do with your efforts as opposed to CCP recognizing the necessity of a nerf?

Ego and cockiness.

Two qualities that most people don't consider "good".

I have an above average IQ, that should mean I know what I'm talking about right?
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1049 - 2012-12-24 23:39:10 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Speaking about conquering hi sec, I invited Baltec1 to setup the next Hulkageddon including me providing a little sponsorship but it kinda dried out fast.

Are you going to bring in Hulkageddon 2013 or not? Just to know if I put some ISK aside for it or not.

Well, it's helicity's thing so he'd have to be on board but i cannot see us abandoning such an effective way to convert isk to rage

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1050 - 2012-12-24 23:40:40 UTC
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:
All that matters is the relative reward-risk factor. You don't need to nerf hisec when you can just buff low and null. And then if you're a low or null player you can laugh at how much you're making as compared to the hiseccers.

yes every time something is significantly out of whack we can just buff every single thing in the game besides that thing instead of dealing with some whining

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1051 - 2012-12-25 00:11:14 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:
All that matters is the relative reward-risk factor. You don't need to nerf hisec when you can just buff low and null. And then if you're a low or null player you can laugh at how much you're making as compared to the hiseccers.

yes every time something is significantly out of whack we can just buff every single thing in the game besides that thing instead of dealing with some whining

That's a ton more effort than just leaving it, and the players, to Highsec Online.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1052 - 2012-12-25 00:29:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Johan Civire
La Nariz wrote:
Johan Civire wrote:


You. talking about evidence try to explane that to ccp...

Decrease player base is not good for busniss. See how criple all mmorpg are with less player base.... you need to balance everything not nerf here and there hopes player A is happy and player B there is always a war agains that....

People love intel cpu other people love amd there are the same but the are not.... meh good try.


So you have no evidence to back up anything you say, thanks for letting us know that. You need to support that "if you nerf highsec people will unsub" claim for anyone take it seriously. This warranted nerf I've been talking about is to balance highsec. How do you expect any balance without power creep to occur without nerfing things?


why are people talking about nerfing. How about something that only people get in null sec. Not only moon harvest but things thats needed for high sec thats only to get from zero sec..... Its not easy to think about something. Nerfing will not help.. forcing players to get null sec is general a bad idea.

ps evidence see the lore of all mmorpg.... nuff said. Or you want to try a free eve online with some magic kids shop to unballance the **** out of this game with real money? or some farm vile game like world of wankers and diablo 3 your pick here
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1053 - 2012-12-25 00:38:07 UTC
Johan Civire wrote:
ps evidence see the lore of all mmorpg.... nuff said. Or you want to try a free eve online with some magic kids shop to unballance the **** out of this game with real money?

No, monocles was already enough.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
ISD Cura Ursus
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#1054 - 2012-12-25 00:38:36 UTC
Please people, keep this Thread on topic and civil. No posts have been edited yet, but will be if it gets too personal.

ISD Cura Ursus

Lieutenant Commander

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1055 - 2012-12-25 01:41:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Snow Axe
Johan Civire wrote:
forcing players to get null sec is general a bad idea.


This is one of the worst strawmen in this topic no matter when it comes up.

The idea isn't to force anyone, the idea is to make nullsec life compelling. While there are definitely the totally risk-averse types who will never venture out of highsec, there are people who are open to the idea of more risk for more reward. The core problem is that when these people run the numbers and figure out what they can do in null vs high, it's never worth it to leave highsec. Part of that problem is because certain aspects of null are broken as hell (the near-total lack of industrial capability being a primary culprit), but a significant part of that problem is how valuable highsec is. That's why they both need changed.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1056 - 2012-12-25 02:15:23 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Johan Civire wrote:
forcing players to get null sec is general a bad idea.


This is one of the worst strawmen in this topic no matter when it comes up.

The idea isn't to force anyone, the idea is to make nullsec life compelling. While there are definitely the totally risk-averse types who will never venture out of highsec, there are people who are open to the idea of more risk for more reward. The core problem is that when these people run the numbers and figure out what they can do in null vs high, it's never worth it to leave highsec. Part of that problem is because certain aspects of null are broken as hell (the near-total lack of industrial capability being a primary culprit), but a significant part of that problem is how valuable highsec is. That's why they both need changed.


/me give cookie
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1057 - 2012-12-25 02:33:12 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

CCP doesn't want you staying in the NPC corps,...


Sounds distinctly like a goal, which is an odd attitude for a "sandbox".

In the end, I'm pretty sure they want folks to stick around and pay and so far it looks like longer term people tend toward player corps.

If there's something else driving it I'd be interested to hear about it.
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1058 - 2012-12-25 02:38:52 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
The idea isn't to force anyone, the idea is to make nullsec life compelling.


And how exactly is nerfing highsec refine rates making nullsec "compelling"?

There are lots of ways you could buff nullsec industry without making it "omg over the top since highsec is obviously the BEST"

Your stations could use more manufacturing slots. That's a given. I don't think anyone would really complain if null had some kind of "extra-dense" low-end ores that would give you easier access to more trit and pyerite. Making people in highsec miserable won't do anything to help your situation, and there are lots of small ways null industry could be improved without needing CCP's oversized nuclear nerfhammer.
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1059 - 2012-12-25 02:39:11 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Johan Civire wrote:
forcing players to get null sec is general a bad idea.


This is one of the worst strawmen in this topic no matter when it comes up.

The idea isn't to force anyone, the idea is to make nullsec life compelling.


"Compulsion" can infer a push or a pull, external or internal motivation. The compelling (pull) part of null isn't coming from players, so now we turn to game mechanics to make things (push) compelling.
POKER ALICE
Moonshine Monks Gentlemans Club
#1060 - 2012-12-25 02:43:56 UTC
Quote:

The idea isn't to force anyone, the idea is to make nullsec life compelling. While there are definitely the totally risk-averse types who will never venture out of highsec, there are people who are open to the idea of more risk for more reward. The core problem is that when these people run the numbers and figure out what they can do in null vs high, it's never worth it to leave highsec. Part of that problem is because certain aspects of null are broken as hell (the near-total lack of industrial capability being a primary culprit), but a significant part of that problem is how valuable highsec is. That's why they both need changed.



Then what would you suggest to add industrial capability to null? I suspect that if you completely removed industry from high sec to null that your problem would be even bigger than it is now. Most hi sec industrialists I know would rather quit than be forced into null to do their thing and thats the truth. Believe it or not, there are those that could care less about blowing up internet spaceships without fear of getting concordokkened. They choose to stay in high sec because they actually like knowing they can log in a few hours per day, mine some rock and build a few things as THEY see fit. They dont want to waste their valuable time following the beat of someone elses drum. The problem as I see it is this thing called real life. Real life for many of us dictates we can only have so much EVE time a day and if we are going to pay to play a game (be entertained if you will) then the last thing we want is to punch out of one clock and into another.

"If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it. And if you dont deserve what you have and we cant make you lose it, we will ask CCP to nerf it"