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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#881 - 2012-12-23 19:24:36 UTC
Prien wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Prien wrote:

I'm not going to get in to a protracted debate about this particular topic as I've made my point and outlined the genuine reason behind this latest call to twist the knife yet further in to the back of Empire.

However, just to scotch this myth about Empire being supposedly so perfect perhaps you can explain why living in null and low sec you can afford to build and maintain the logistics of industry necessary to support the construction of vast fleets of Capital ships comprising of Dreadnoughts, Carriers, Super carriers and Titans worth hundreds of Billions of Isk that no other ordinary Joe living in Empire could afford in a lifetime?

Even if it were possible to construct these vessels using conventional Empire industrial means there are very few with the financial clout to do so.

The fact remains that the capacity for earning wealth and wealth creation (including industrial capacity) in Low and Null space is vastly superior to anything that can possibly be achieved within Empire and so the suggestion to dumb down Empire yet further is frankly ludicrous in the extreme.


Your entire post was a big "Stop trying to force people into nullsec." Myself and others have said forcing people into nullsec is not our goal. Fix the risk:reward disparities is not an attempt to force people to move into nullsec. Empire industry is perfect, amazing logistical ease, cheap slot rental prices, ease of access to all stations, free protection in the form of CONCORD, good mining value, lack of required social interaction etc. None of those things is true of nullsec industry.

The whole "we can't build capital ships in highsec so that means nullsec industry is better" yeah that's not true at all if anything that's highsec entitlement at its worse.

Bottom line there needs to be an incentive to do things, there is currently none for industry outside of highsec. Highsec industry is perfect, you cannot be better than perfect so because of this highsec industry is warranted a nerf.


Eve Online is a series of trade off's depending upon your location, surely that concept is not lost on you? Roll

If you believe that you are somehow disadvantaged in performing industry in Null or Low then relocate an alt or another resource in to Empire and perform it there instead.


"Supercaps aren't unbalanced because anyone can skill for one if they really want to!"

"Industry isn't unbalanced because anyone can set up a hi-sec alt if they really want to!"

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#882 - 2012-12-23 19:33:01 UTC
Johan Civire wrote:
Decrease player base is not good for busniss. See how criple all mmorpg are with less player base.... you need to balance everything not nerf here and there hopes player A is happy and player B there is always a war agains that....


The status quo of an ever so slowly stagnating nullsec is not good for the game and results in a decrease in the size of the playerbase. It's not good for business for this to continue, so CCP has to make sure that they make nullsec players (both current and potential residents) happy by throwing them a bone once in a while instead of throwing out random nerfs to things like anomalies, which highsec players hate because it is an isk faucet.

A good post.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#883 - 2012-12-23 19:48:02 UTC
Johan Civire wrote:


You. talking about evidence try to explane that to ccp...

Decrease player base is not good for busniss. See how criple all mmorpg are with less player base.... you need to balance everything not nerf here and there hopes player A is happy and player B there is always a war agains that....

People love intel cpu other people love amd there are the same but the are not.... meh good try.


So you have no evidence to back up anything you say, thanks for letting us know that. You need to support that "if you nerf highsec people will unsub" claim for anyone take it seriously. This warranted nerf I've been talking about is to balance highsec. How do you expect any balance without power creep to occur without nerfing things?

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Makavi Astro
State War Academy
Caldari State
#884 - 2012-12-23 20:19:01 UTC
Highsec/lowsec/nulsec are all perfectly fine! Nothing needs to be changed.
High sec is the city, people work, make money, construct things, do whatever is done in highsec.
If you are good and brave enough, you go to low/null to test your balls, if you can handle it, you stay there. Form/join corporation/alliance and go to wars.

Highsec is too rewarding? Then go to highsec, simple as that.

Some boosts to null could be done actually, like lowering the batch size of rare ores.. Or some other stuff..

Anyway nulsec for me was always the arena, place where you fight people.
And highsec was the home. It is not really profitable as you say, we don't get faction loot, we can't mine for expensive ores, we can't freely attack those juicy freighters, our planets don't have that much material on them, and no moons for us.
No need in nerfing highsec.
But there can be a talk on boosting null a bit.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#885 - 2012-12-23 20:31:42 UTC
Makavi Astro wrote:


Anyway nulsec for me was always the arena, place where you fight people.

And highsec was the home.



Precisely. This is the fundamentally broken gameplay feature that goes complete against what Eve is supposed to be. Eve is specifically not an arena game and was never intended to be. The fact that so many people perceive it as such demonstrates how severe the need to reformulate the very guts of gameplay is.

Although your conclusion is dead wrong, your observation is dead right. Thanks for your input.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#886 - 2012-12-23 20:57:04 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:

If the only metric of "winning EvE" you have is how big your virtual bank balance is, you lost before the first time you logged in.

The point of EvE is to have fun playing EvE. That means different things to different people, from being a part of massive fleets of gigantic ships competing for control of nullsec to sitting in a quiet backwater listening to the hum of your mining lasers as they steadily fill your hold.

Isk is just how you gain access to the parts of the game that you enjoy.


Find us a better quantifiable metric and we'll be happy to use it until then all we have is isk/hr.

Subscriber base.

The more people are playing EvE, the more people are having fun at it.

If you need a visible e-peen to size up, that's your way to have fun at EvE. It isn't wrong, but it isn't the only way to win.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#887 - 2012-12-23 21:01:06 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
No, no. He doesn't care about isk/hour, so he's not going to care when hisec income gets nerfed. Problem solved.

You know what? I really wouldn't. But it's impossible for you to kill the market, so you won't be able to touch my best isk/hr activity.

Other people might care, however. If they leave the game because their e-peen has been cut off, I will be enjoying it less.

I've played post-plague games before, where a thriving user base has dropped dramatically for whatever reason, and it *sucks*. It invariably is worse than whatever problem the developers were looking to solve when they made the changes that caused the exodus.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#888 - 2012-12-23 21:07:28 UTC
Please waffle more. You've been an enormous addition to the discourse with your complete lack of consistency.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#889 - 2012-12-23 21:49:49 UTC
Makavi Astro wrote:

No need in nerfing highsec.
But there can be a talk on boosting null a bit.


How do you account for power creep? CCP has stated before they do not want power creep hence the nerfing. Also highsec industry is perfect how do you get better than perfect?

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#890 - 2012-12-23 21:53:07 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:

Subscriber base.
The more people are playing EvE, the more people are having fun at it.


Okay so you have another metric that tells us nothing about reward. It tells us how many accounts are in the game and that just hints at the overall size of EVE but not about the reward disparity across the sec areas. I'd like to have proper metrics for "fun" but its way to subjective you can't count and compare how much "fun" there is. Being able to count and compare are two crucial factors to a quantifiable metric. Hence why isk/hr is the best metric we have, once again if you have a better metric please tell us.

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CraftyCroc
Fraternity Alliance Please Ignore
#891 - 2012-12-23 22:24:15 UTC
Op

If you do what you are asking - the rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer

Regards
CC
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#892 - 2012-12-23 22:24:49 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Glad to see you are the official spokeperson for CCP and dictate who to take and who to refuse to the game.
With those abundant epitects I can also see a bright future in your attempt at gaining simpathy to your cause exactly off those who are your subject.

EvE does exactly like many brands do: they create a luxury brand selling some silly hat / woman dress. They will sell all of 5 of their $30,000 exclusive, bait items, then make 30M dollars selling cheap hats, mundane woman dresses and so on in the supermarket.

EvE 5k concurrent online "content creators" are still the same amount since the dawn of the game, CCP use them to attract the remaining 40,000 who are not news worthy but bring in the wage for the CCP employees.


Yeah glad to see you are still up to your handwaiving and :foxnews:ing. You are also not CCP's official spokesperson and also cannot dictate what EVE does.

EVE's "content creators" have slowly grown but with the disparity in risk:reward between all of the sec areas most notably highsec, its a slow growth.



I am not the guy demanding EvE to change, no need to be a spokesperson to do nothing.

I feel perfectly well and fine, it's your super wealthy, top alliance who are complaining like crazy.

I am very OK at changing the game to implement powerful industry in null sec etc. etc. but in the end it's YOU who are advocating it, not me, so the spokesperson are you.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#893 - 2012-12-23 22:30:47 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:

Subscriber base.
The more people are playing EvE, the more people are having fun at it.


Okay so you have another metric that tells us nothing about reward. It tells us how many accounts are in the game and that just hints at the overall size of EVE but not about the reward disparity across the sec areas. I'd like to have proper metrics for "fun" but its way to subjective you can't count and compare how much "fun" there is. Being able to count and compare are two crucial factors to a quantifiable metric. Hence why isk/hr is the best metric we have, once again if you have a better metric please tell us.

What part of "sandbox game" is so hard for you to understand?

If half the user base is perfectly happy nibbling on rocks and running highsec missions and doesn't want to stretch into more challenging aspects of the game, that's twice as many players as there would be if those features were made too difficult for them to access.

That's twice the market size (well, maybe only 30% more market, but still bigger), twice the potential PvP targets, twice the jeers and twice the tears.

If all you care about is isk, I've got a 128 bit integer with your name on it on a private server. Have as much as you want, but you have to play alone.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#894 - 2012-12-23 22:33:41 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

I am not the guy demanding EvE to change, no need to be a spokesperson to do nothing.

I feel perfectly well and fine, it's your super wealthy, top alliance who are complaining like crazy.

I am very OK at changing the game to implement powerful industry in null sec etc. etc. but in the end it's YOU who are advocating it, not me, so the spokesperson are you.


Okay so what is your point now then? You aren't raising a point or arguing anything other than more goonspiracy. If that underlined part is true why are you advocating against a highsec industry nerf?

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#895 - 2012-12-23 22:36:32 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

We've been giving you reasons for over 40 pages! WTF?

NO INCENTIVE!


Pushing sheep into doing things = WoW.
"Incentive" is WoW's Gospel you know?


Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Why do something in null that you can do in high and make as much or more isk?


For the same reason a shoe maker could keep humbly making shoes instead of something better? That is because he likes it? Nah, it requires a mindset that goes beyond super-immediate guinea pig: "push the button with the nose, food comes out" stimulus.


Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Why indeed aren't the people moving from high sec?
Maybe becuse the one measurable point of "winning" in EVE that every person playing it has, is that stupid number in your wallet.

Let's be realistic for a moment.
Almost all of us are playing to make silly virtual wealth. It's the one thing we have to really focus on because we don't have to grind levels or gear, so we measure our success by ISK. Some do it otherways, like killboard, but that's not what the majority of us are measuring our success by.

We play for ISK.
Whatever reason you initially came to EVE for, in the end you will be playing for ISK.


Completely and utterly subjective vision of yours.
As your corp people say, EvE is made by "content makers", be it spies, awoxers, great battlefield generals...
NOBODY comes to EvE with ISK as their "dream", ISK is just a stupid fake currency.
Those who really want to see some real currency play real currency MMOs like Entropia (also featuring PvP in space).

There are Sci-fi enthusiasts who come to EvE to savor those things that make to the news.
There are the "crafters" who come to EvE because of it's top notch crafting system.
There are "collectors" who come to EvE to collect all the items or ships.
There are PvPers who come to EvE to shoot faces, ISK is a medium to get to PvP not the holy end.
There are casual players who come to EvE to have a chat and slowly make their best pimp ship.
There are traders who come to EvE to get "markets kill mails" and others who trade (like me) for the pure, UTTER pleausure to prove they "predicted" the markets right and then go rub their screenshots in the face of others.

You seem to have a rabid obsession for ISK.
That's fine, but don't pretend everybody got your same taste or playing objectives.


EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#896 - 2012-12-23 22:36:59 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:

What part of "sandbox game" is so hard for you to understand?

If half the user base is perfectly happy nibbling on rocks and running highsec missions and doesn't want to stretch into more challenging aspects of the game, that's twice as many players as there would be if those features were made too difficult for them to access.

That's twice the market size (well, maybe only 30% more market, but still bigger), twice the potential PvP targets, twice the jeers and twice the tears.

If all you care about is isk, I've got a 128 bit integer with your name on it on a private server. Have as much as you want, but you have to play alone.


We aren't arguing over "sandbox game" you're trying to tell me why isk/hr is a bad metric for reward. So far all you've got is because of that metric it makes me a sad, terrible person IRL. Now I'll say it again to you, if you have a better quantifiable metric for reward please let us know.

I'll keep it in simple terms here so don't go getting pedantic on me, give us something easily measured, counted, and compared.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#897 - 2012-12-23 22:45:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
La Nariz wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

I am not the guy demanding EvE to change, no need to be a spokesperson to do nothing.

I feel perfectly well and fine, it's your super wealthy, top alliance who are complaining like crazy.

I am very OK at changing the game to implement powerful industry in null sec etc. etc. but in the end it's YOU who are advocating it, not me, so the spokesperson are you.


Okay so what is your point now then? You aren't raising a point or arguing anything other than more goonspiracy. If that underlined part is true why are you advocating against a highsec industry nerf?


My point, in case those many pages were not clear, is to:

- fully support a null sec industry buff including stations.

- fully support a WH industry buff (WHs being what GS posters oddly "forgot" to mention).

- fully support further low sec getting special perks only available in there. You want candy XYZ you dirty your hands and go get it there.

Then STOP for a patch cycle and look at what happens to the economy.
THEN take additional decisions.
It's for your own good, you don't even imagine what kind of issues you are going to get to yourself for increasing your efficiency (namely, a possible GREAT loss in earnings and a supercaps proliferation knowing no equals).

As for goonspiracy, as I said multiple time, stop pretending being so prosecuted or even important.
You are a lobby sponsoring your lobby plans, nothing more.
Some at the top of your organization actually believe in your needs - and some are very understandable and shareable, but the message transpiring by the "grunts" transcripts is of menial corporate interest dressed by thin ideology, seasoned by their own personal preferences and interests.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#898 - 2012-12-23 22:52:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Varius Xeral
The reason WHs don't get mentioned in these threads is because they are alien to most of us, and they have their own effective lobby to look out for their interests. Furthermore, any pos revamp, which is part of an industry revamp, would nececessarily have input from WHers about pos and industry in WHs. It is far from a condemnation that we try not to speak for WHers, rather it is a point our "side" should be congratulated for.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Shylari Avada
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#899 - 2012-12-23 22:52:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Shylari Avada
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
- fully support a WH industry buff (WHs being what GS posters oddly "forgot" to mention).


Sorry, we limit our emergent game play to losing ships in Empire, manipulating LowSec and controlling 'all' of NullSec; expanding into WH Space might lead some to believe our horde of "CCP Controlling Idiots" might be semi-competent. We certainly don't want that.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#900 - 2012-12-23 22:54:52 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
They need to cater to content creators because that's who makes the game. Those content creators are not the npc corp highsec industrialists that this thread advocates against. Those content creators are mostly outside of highsec and other than James315 I can't cite a highsec content creator.


There are plenty of hi sec content creators, you just don't want to see them.
Even the dumbest ice mining system lives its daily struggle and drama, if you want I can tell some tales about it.

Also, ATM I am in hi sec and creating content. You just don't head to the Market Discussion forum to read about it, because you don't consider market PvP "content".

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