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Why do so many people seem to think they should be immune to ship loss?

Author
John Caesse
Just Post Inc.
#21 - 2011-10-23 20:47:47 UTC
okst666 wrote:
I think it is the same reason, why you don't want to buy a car every two days.. You do not want to crash it and lose the money that it had cost.

And, I just do not want to lose ships. That is why I am going for an opting out PvP-Switch as soon as I become the new CSM.

And it is easy to implement for CCP too..

if(user.PvP==false)
agressor.damageModifier =0;

Thats all and it makes myriads of paying members HAPPY and raises willingness to pay for more cool stuff.


The level of idiocy and ignorance displayed in your post is absolutely staggering.
The Apostle
Doomheim
#22 - 2011-10-23 20:48:02 UTC
Quote:
I know, I just wondered if there was any logical basis to it other than "I'm a special snowflake and shouldn't have to abide by the rules".


Firstly, they ARE abiding by "the rules".
Secondly there are no "rules" that says you HAVE TO lose your ship.
Thirdly, the game ALLOWS YOU to go kill said ships within "the rules".
Fourthly, if all "rules" were unbreakable "rules" then why does the game need to be nerfed/buffed/tweaked?
Fifthly, THEY don't like "the rules" and have every right to seek changes, just like YOU do.
Sixthly, THEY post about "the rules" so you can post about "the rules" and have something to whine about, yet again.

Are you some kinda bored wannabe "lookatme" pvp dude bashing keys 'cause the little boy won't come out to play wiv him?

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]

Alara IonStorm
#23 - 2011-10-23 20:52:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
I don't think it is the loss but the Gank. I think they would mind a lot less if they ever had a fighting chance to win.

As for War Decs that one is simple. One side War is all they ever do. They are not poor and need to farm up or have other gameplay styles they want to do. On top of that they are armed and your not, they have Neut RR, Play Endless Station Games in over tanked ships and are generally experts at not fighting you for fear of KB Shame. So what could have been an Awesome 20 on 20 Battlecruiser Fight at a Gate turns into 2 Megathons on an Undock with 5 Guardians ready for a warp in on the one 3 month old Character inside.

The biggest problem not counting the Neut RR is plain Logistics(The Transport Kind). Most of the 10-50 PvE Corps can not get 20 people in a harmonized fleet of say Drake, Rapier, Scimitar or Abbadon/Geddon, Guardian, Tackle. It is because everyone is training in different directions not expecting fleet needs then a whole bunch of Maelstroms or Canes show up and there training is so all over the place they can not pop out a decent fleet that would ever stand a chance.

From what I have heard it is the idea that they will never win that is the issue. Everyone who thinks PvP is fun wins at it some of the time. They get to pop a few enemy ships before they go down. Unless they have a ghost of a chance these people won't enjoy it but do not want to give up what they have already.

Not suggesting big things need to change like Dec policies or Concord gank changes it is just one of the reasons it happens. If I were to make suggestion about how to change things, make PvP information be placed somewhere where PvE Corps can get at it without looking because most won't and an Arena type system for practice. But that is just me.
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
#24 - 2011-10-23 20:52:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jennifer Starling
Malcanis wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Outside of 0.0, losing implants is optional almost all the time. It's actually quite difficult to construct a scenario where you can't avoid implant loss simply by knowing how to play (and actually being at the keyboard), and it involves the co-operation of multiple people.

Jennifer Starling wrote:
I know. Still it happened (sensor boosted interceptors) and I did mind.
It's the reason I made a special PvP alt.


And on that day, you made sure that a mission runner in hi-sec sold his +4 set for enough ISK to buy his first Raven.

Surely you don't want to take that Raven away?

I'm talking about +5s. And personally I think PvP shouldn't be at the expense of skilltraining speed.
Mortis vonShadow
Balanaz Mining and Development Inc.
#25 - 2011-10-23 20:53:34 UTC
okst666 wrote:
I think it is the same reason, why you don't want to buy a car every two days.. You do not want to crash it and lose the money that it had cost.

And, I just do not want to lose ships. That is why I am going for an opting out PvP-Switch as soon as I become the new CSM.

And it is easy to implement for CCP too..

if(user.PvP==false)
agressor.damageModifier =0;

Thats all and it makes myriads of paying members HAPPY and raises willingness to pay for more cool stuff.


Good thing no one is going to vote for you.

Some days you're the bug, and some days your the windscreen.                   And some days, you're just a man with a gun.

Katsumi Kaminari
#26 - 2011-10-23 20:53:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Katsumi Kaminari
People just want all the rewards with none of the risk. That is the antithesis of EVE. I think a lot of peoples problem is the fact that EVE requires reading, research, and most importantly RISK.

In blossom today, then scattered: Life is so like a delicate flower. How can one expect the fragrance To last forever? - Vice Admiral Ohnishi, Kamikaze Special Attack Force

okst666
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2011-10-23 20:55:43 UTC
Mortis vonShadow wrote:
okst666 wrote:
I think it is the same reason, why you don't want to buy a car every two days.. You do not want to crash it and lose the money that it had cost.

And, I just do not want to lose ships. That is why I am going for an opting out PvP-Switch as soon as I become the new CSM.

And it is easy to implement for CCP too..

if(user.PvP==false)
agressor.damageModifier =0;

Thats all and it makes myriads of paying members HAPPY and raises willingness to pay for more cool stuff.


Good thing no one is going to vote for you.


That is just YOUR opinion, sir.

[X] < Nail here for new monitor

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#28 - 2011-10-23 20:56:17 UTC
The Apostle wrote:
Quote:
I know, I just wondered if there was any logical basis to it other than "I'm a special snowflake and shouldn't have to abide by the rules".


Firstly, they ARE abiding by "the rules".
Secondly there are no "rules" that says you HAVE TO lose your ship.


Correct, as far as it goes. But there are rules that say you have to risk losing your ship, and the thing about risks is that sometimes they happen.

What do you say to those people who say that they should be immune to the rules about having to endure risk like everyone else?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#29 - 2011-10-23 20:57:03 UTC
T' Elk wrote:
I am immune to ship loss.


Its true, I have never killed T'Elk
Elson Tamar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2011-10-23 20:57:46 UTC
N one should be immune to ship loss, however certain areas should be safer than others. A back alley is riskier than a shopping centre (well till a goon does a drive by in a brutix). But there should always be an element of risk.
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2011-10-23 21:03:52 UTC
There will never be an option to opt out from pvp. Guaranteed.

If hisec people don't like the current gank and concord mechanics, then they should focus on that: are they working as intended? Have gankers perfected the system so well that victims are now at an excessive disadvantage disproportionate to the effort the gankers are putting in? This is the approach that might get some ear time with CCP and might not cause a huge backlash among those who care.

Campaigning for a "pvp off" switch will just get you laughed at.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#32 - 2011-10-23 21:04:04 UTC
Elson Tamar wrote:
N one should be immune to ship loss, however certain areas should be safer than others. A back alley is riskier than a shopping centre (well till a goon does a drive by in a brutix). But there should always be an element of risk.



It's funny to see how the people who want shopping mall safety react when they're offered mallcop wages.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Mortis vonShadow
Balanaz Mining and Development Inc.
#33 - 2011-10-23 21:04:30 UTC
The Apostle wrote:
Quote:
I know, I just wondered if there was any logical basis to it other than "I'm a special snowflake and shouldn't have to abide by the rules".


Firstly, they ARE abiding by "the rules".
Secondly there are no "rules" that says you HAVE TO lose your ship.
Thirdly, the game ALLOWS YOU to go kill said ships within "the rules".
Fourthly, if all "rules" were unbreakable "rules" then why does the game need to be nerfed/buffed/tweaked?
Fifthly, THEY don't like "the rules" and have every right to seek changes, just like YOU do.
Sixthly, THEY post about "the rules" so you can post about "the rules" and have something to whine about, yet again.

Are you some kinda bored wannabe "lookatme" pvp dude bashing keys 'cause the little boy won't come out to play wiv him?



Shhh, your time is up. Go somewhere else and try to impress others. Personally, I just wish you would unsub and get it over wtih.

Some days you're the bug, and some days your the windscreen.                   And some days, you're just a man with a gun.

Mortis vonShadow
Balanaz Mining and Development Inc.
#34 - 2011-10-23 21:06:46 UTC
okst666 wrote:
Mortis vonShadow wrote:
okst666 wrote:
I think it is the same reason, why you don't want to buy a car every two days.. You do not want to crash it and lose the money that it had cost.

And, I just do not want to lose ships. That is why I am going for an opting out PvP-Switch as soon as I become the new CSM.

And it is easy to implement for CCP too..

if(user.PvP==false)
agressor.damageModifier =0;

Thats all and it makes myriads of paying members HAPPY and raises willingness to pay for more cool stuff.


Good thing no one is going to vote for you.


That is just YOUR opinion, sir.



Nope, that is FACT. No one is going to vote for someone to put in a WoW like feature in EVE. Sorry, won't happen. Good luck with your campaigning and all.

Some days you're the bug, and some days your the windscreen.                   And some days, you're just a man with a gun.

Large Collidable Object
morons.
#35 - 2011-10-23 21:08:32 UTC
Not wanting to lose is a pretty normal trait, however the typical highsec carebear doesn'rt seem to see the pointlessness in acquiring isk if there's nothing to replace.

Getting blown up and having a laugh in the process is the only purpose isk have in this game in the long run.

Unfortunately, todays games don't teach people how to lose anymore - there's always an autosave or tombstone to fall back to and so people are used to be constantly spoon-fed 'success', which has left them incapable to cope with the loss of something as tremendously important as pixel-ships.

Compared to most MMOs, Pacman was hardcore - if you lost all your lives, you had to insert another quarter and start all over again.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Generals4
#36 - 2011-10-23 21:09:22 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
The entire EVE economy is fundamentally based on ships being purchased, used to fight each other, and being lost. Everyone takes their turn. You spend a part of your time accumulating wealth and assets, a part of your time destroying other people's wealth and assets, and a part of your time seeing your own assets destroyed. If no-one ever lost a ship, then we'd need only a tiny fraction of the miners, industrialists, traders, researchers, explorers, etc etc that the EVE economy supports today. Every time someone else loses a ship, every miner, ship builder, inventor and so on becomes just a tiny bit wealthier.

Why then do we see a vocal minority posting with such surprise and outrage that they also are occasionally expected to take their turn losing a ship? Do they really think that EVE can work if people are allowed to endlessly accumulate and never lose? Actually, they seem to think that a certain subset of people seem to be entitled to never lose a ship - that it's morally wrong to make them lose a ship.

Cited reasons include "I'm not bothering anyone" (selling resourcs to my enemies), "I'm a casual player" (risk scales exactly with playtime), "I don't like PvP" (I only like scoring points, not conceding them!), "People who do this are sociopaths/abused/have mental illlness/stupid" (crazy emo educationally subnormal people can outsmart me).

Interestingly, the people who complain about being "forced to PvP" never seem to be very enthusiastic about allowing those who aren't that interested in industry, trade, mining, etc in simply being allowed to buy whatever they need to fight with at base NPC prices. Apparently it's OK to "force" people to engage market PvP, just no to combat PvP.


While i agree with the purpose of this post i can't help myself pointing out certain major flaws in your argument.

No one forces you to do anything. Who forces you to market PVP? no one, you decided that was the best way to get what you need for the PvP you deliberately wanted to do.

No one is being forced to do anything. So i don't think that's really an argument.

On top of that, your logic that everyone should take a turn to lose a ship would entail that everyone should also take a turn at producing something. Your own logic would state that CCP should somehow enforce industry onto everyone. I don't think you'd want that now do you?

For me it's simply that the constant risk of being engaged adds that little bit of suspense to EVE and makes it what it is. And indeed is what makes the economy run smoother. I don't think there is any reason to add further broken arguments to back up the point.

_-Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. _

The Apostle
Doomheim
#37 - 2011-10-23 21:14:45 UTC
Mortis vonShadow wrote:
The Apostle wrote:
Quote:
I know, I just wondered if there was any logical basis to it other than "I'm a special snowflake and shouldn't have to abide by the rules".


Firstly, they ARE abiding by "the rules".
Secondly there are no "rules" that says you HAVE TO lose your ship.
Thirdly, the game ALLOWS YOU to go kill said ships within "the rules".
Fourthly, if all "rules" were unbreakable "rules" then why does the game need to be nerfed/buffed/tweaked?
Fifthly, THEY don't like "the rules" and have every right to seek changes, just like YOU do.
Sixthly, THEY post about "the rules" so you can post about "the rules" and have something to whine about, yet again.

Are you some kinda bored wannabe "lookatme" pvp dude bashing keys 'cause the little boy won't come out to play wiv him?


Shhh, your time is up. Go somewhere else and try to impress others. Personally, I just wish you would unsub and get it over wtih.

Yes of course. We absolutely need to leave the forums full of one line posters like you so you can all rub each others private bits.

I am one of many who are becoming increasingly amused by people who complain about what OTHERS want simply because it doesn't suit what THEY want.

Kinda ironic dontcha think?


[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]

okst666
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2011-10-23 21:16:01 UTC  |  Edited by: okst666
Mortis vonShadow wrote:
okst666 wrote:
Mortis vonShadow wrote:
okst666 wrote:
I think it is the same reason, why you don't want to buy a car every two days.. You do not want to crash it and lose the money that it had cost.

And, I just do not want to lose ships. That is why I am going for an opting out PvP-Switch as soon as I become the new CSM.

And it is easy to implement for CCP too..

if(user.PvP==false)
agressor.damageModifier =0;

Thats all and it makes myriads of paying members HAPPY and raises willingness to pay for more cool stuff.


Good thing no one is going to vote for you.


That is just YOUR opinion, sir.



Nope, that is FACT. No one is going to vote for someone to put in a WoW like feature in EVE. Sorry, won't happen. Good luck with your campaigning and all.


Well..the topic of this thread is: "Why do so many people seem to think they should be immune to shi...something".

Obviously there are many people who do not like losing ships, like I do.. Maybe they vote me, maybe not...

It does not matter, because if not CSM...then CEO of CCP...whatever happens earlier... PvP will become a switch in this game ..if you want it or not.

edit: and DO NOT tell me, megalomaniacs cannot make it the csm...(points at chairman of csm)

[X] < Nail here for new monitor

Mortis vonShadow
Balanaz Mining and Development Inc.
#39 - 2011-10-23 21:20:10 UTC
To the Apostle:

The games been around for a little over 8 years now. Do you think that CCP is going to change a core game mechanic because a bunch of new players don't like it?

Personally, I'm tired of hearing all the whining and complaining. If you don't like how the game is made, either make your own version of EVE to compete with, or stop playing and go do something else.

Simple really.

Some days you're the bug, and some days your the windscreen.                   And some days, you're just a man with a gun.

Mashie Saldana
V0LTA
OnlyFleets.
#40 - 2011-10-23 21:22:05 UTC
Jennifer Starling wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Outside of 0.0, losing implants is optional almost all the time. It's actually quite difficult to construct a scenario where you can't avoid implant loss simply by knowing how to play (and actually being at the keyboard), and it involves the co-operation of multiple people.

Jennifer Starling wrote:
I know. Still it happened (sensor boosted interceptors) and I did mind.
It's the reason I made a special PvP alt.


And on that day, you made sure that a mission runner in hi-sec sold his +4 set for enough ISK to buy his first Raven.

Surely you don't want to take that Raven away?

I'm talking about +5s. And personally I think PvP shouldn't be at the expense of skilltraining speed.

Some people just beg to get podded, I mean if I have time to lock a pod in a Vagabond they aren't really trying to get away are they?

As for using implants/expensive clones for PVP, it is simply the same rule as always, don't fly what you can't afford to lose.

My cheapest clone is the one fitted with +5's and I have been living in lowsec/0.0 for well over a year now.