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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

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Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#801 - 2012-12-22 23:35:53 UTC
Now I find your attempt at forming a coherent argument ridiculous as well.

What do you have next?

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Hannah Flex
#802 - 2012-12-22 23:38:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Hannah Flex
Yonis Kador wrote:
Wait. Now null sec doesn't want high seccers to head to null? That can't be accurate. After all this talk of risk/reward, balancing on principle and getting null industry alts to come home, "no one" wants high seccers to radiate to null? If that's true, then the proposed high sec nerf only translates to a massive influx of isk for null sov holders


Its like this: nobody wants all the highsec bears to come to null, I dont know how that myth gets perpetuated. Stay right where you are at. Moongoo is broke, nerf it, fix it, fix the whole T2 production chain so that we dont have to rely on moons to support our alliance.

Take away moongoo, allow us to develop our space in a meaningful way and contribute to the health of the alliance from the line-member grunt level on up, rather than capturing all kinds of moons. We dont want moongoo AND this bottom up increase, we been saying moongoo is broke for years. Fix it and give us bottom-up income.
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#803 - 2012-12-22 23:40:00 UTC
At least you made me laugh. If you can keep a man smiling while you rob him blind, you've accomplished something.

YK
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#804 - 2012-12-23 00:52:59 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

So you're saying that you'd be quite happy for hi-sec industry to face the same restrictions that nullsec industry does?

OK let's start with only 1 station per system

Are you still happy?


I don't want to say anything about this since I am 75% agreeing with all what GS and other null players want.

But there's one thing that caught my eye. In one of the NPC nullsec stations I go sometimes (5J) the refine is 50%.
So if somebody nerfs hi sec to null sec levels, the only ones really affected are those without the refining skills. Aka Malcanis Law...

All NPC stations have 50% refining.

All of them. Highsec, nullsec, lowsec, it doesn't matter.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#805 - 2012-12-23 00:59:42 UTC
Hannah Flex wrote:
Yonis Kador wrote:
Wait. Now null sec doesn't want high seccers to head to null? That can't be accurate. After all this talk of risk/reward, balancing on principle and getting null industry alts to come home, "no one" wants high seccers to radiate to null? If that's true, then the proposed high sec nerf only translates to a massive influx of isk for null sov holders


Its like this: nobody wants all the highsec bears to come to null, I dont know how that myth gets perpetuated. Stay right where you are at. Moongoo is broke, nerf it, fix it, fix the whole T2 production chain so that we dont have to rely on moons to support our alliance.

Take away moongoo, allow us to develop our space in a meaningful way and contribute to the health of the alliance from the line-member grunt level on up, rather than capturing all kinds of moons. We dont want moongoo AND this bottom up increase, we been saying moongoo is broke for years. Fix it and give us bottom-up income.

So you want scalable content for nullsec.

Perfectly reasonable.

It has to come at the cost of sharply curtailed sovereignty, though, or the first mover advantage is too great.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#806 - 2012-12-23 01:24:52 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

So you're saying that you'd be quite happy for hi-sec industry to face the same restrictions that nullsec industry does?

OK let's start with only 1 station per system

Are you still happy?

One station per system, but I can build supercaps? SOLD!

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Tesal
#807 - 2012-12-23 02:04:12 UTC
The risk reward is as it should be now. Nullsec doesn't need a buff and hi-sec doesn't need a nerf. Nullsec mega coalitions need less resources, not more in order to discourage even larger mega coalitions from forming. Stripping hi-sec of its viability as an industrial center and shifting that to nullsec only gives more power to the mega coalitions that run nullsec. They have enough power already and don't need more. Nullsec is badly broken and nerfing hi-sec won't make nullsec any less broken.
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#808 - 2012-12-23 03:11:28 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Nexus Day wrote:
People continue to think that by changing hi sec, people will all of a sudden move to null or low.

That is like thinking that getting rid of a hi class restaraunt will drive people to Mc Donalds. It won't. .


People seem to think that allowing a hi class resteraunt to make a higher margin than MacDonads will drive Mc'D's out of business. It wont.


perhaps but still you want to play eve? every one wants to play eve. If we going to change eve that force players to play in low sec or zero people leave..

Yah some will come but not many. So let the answer be short Make high save let noobs play in high sec increase more people in eve because high sec is save. SO more people is more income for ccp and more income is better expands for null sec and low secs So what the argue again?
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#809 - 2012-12-23 03:41:29 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Nuisance is EvE Online second name. If all "they" want is to play in a isk free paradise carebear heaven, they don't belong in this game.


So if you feel that way then go harass them. Gank them or something instead of whining that CCP should be doing it for you since you're too lazy.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#810 - 2012-12-23 03:49:37 UTC
Sal Landry wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Nuisance is EvE Online second name. If all "they" want is to play in a isk free paradise carebear heaven, they don't belong in this game.


So if you feel that way then go harass them. Gank them or something instead of whining that CCP should be doing it for you since you're too lazy.


If we could suicide cancel their industry job, I'd be much more inclined to agree with you.

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#811 - 2012-12-23 03:55:18 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

2. Figures, I'd never think you'd say that. Roll

3. Yet you keep replying.

4. It does not make you an horrible person, it makes me think you are not enjoying the game and your zone goals at it should. For the rest, don't flatter yourself with the default stupid "I will say the guy says PvPers are sociopaths" because I PvP in all sorts of games since a decade+. ISK addicted people <> PvPer anyway.

5. 2-3 years ago that was exactly like you say, then CCP put soloable, farmable FW in direct competition for many "former good items" so there's no "dumb or smart", just "boned". To do what you say CCP would have to remove that FW overlap and this is not going to happen.


2 & 3. I'm sure I'm not the only one eagerly awaiting your meltdown.

4. The fact that you insinuate that things one does in a video game has any hint of what they are in RL speaks volumes, I don't care what kind of misdirection you attempt no one is buying it.

5. There is plenty of smart, those that do their research and find what items will maximize their LP value are the smart and those that do not are the dumb. The main point is it ties their income to the market, stripping away some of the isolation they are capable of operating in.

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#812 - 2012-12-23 04:14:24 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

1. I could imagine you would not see the difference between WoW and a PvP game if you were not an EvE player. But you ARE an EvE player how can you even compare WoW with a real PvP game? Ever played any of Darkfall, DAoC, Warhammer? Those are PvP games. Even GW2 is more of a PvP game than WoW and that's a theme park.

2. You and the other guys pretend all people have to fall to your boring bullcrap made just to raise rubble. No, I don't care about you being a PvPer, about yourself saying I say you are something bad IRL, about yourself saying I am going to do something with CSM. You are a LOBBY, clear and sharp, nothing ideological more, nothing ideological less. You do your interests and I could respect that if you did not keep painting yourself either as the "public enemy" or the "victim" or "selfless heroes out to save the game".
So, stop playing the "everyone hate us" role and similar bull, it really does not suit the richest and largest alliance in game.

3. Yes because saying an American knows what's a lobby is, it is clearly racist Roll
I mentioned American because in other countries people don't know what a lobby is, they don't exist or are not legal nor allowed to officially exist.

4. I misrepresented what's not relevant (as I am not in the alliance) but wrote down what's relevant (an exploit *made* and derisive thread done to CCP).

5. Whatever suits you. I am trying to provide more details to try make it clearer, if to you that's moving goal posts, guess what I don't care. As I said, let's agree to disagre and be done with it.

6. Nope I never said the intended game play is to have progression from hi sec to null sec, you did.

7. Not my fault you 5-6 people keep enlarging this thread more than a Viagra carton.

8. Well since I am certainly not the most hard core nor most capable player in the world yet I seem to manage at what you find impossible / unbelievable then that anedoctal evidence becomes evidence.
I also would have called anedoctal evidence the possibility to grab drones off opponents then I have seen Kil2 doing it and thus it became evidence.





9. Anyway we are at the end of an argument ping pong and I got bored.
What I had to say, I said. Feel free to ignore it.


1. I see plenty of difference between a "good" pvp game and a "bad" pvp game. Good or bad, its still a pvp game and no amount of hand waiving will make it anything different.

2. Need anymore tinfoil for that goonspiracy? Is it so hard to believe that those of us who choose to play with industry want to see its risk:reward balanced? "everyone hate us" lol hahahahhahahahhah man you must not read these forums at all or you are horribly oblivious.

3. Uh oh is the bigot-in-hiding upset that I called them on it?

4. So you admit that you misrepresented an event to better your own position. Thank you for admitting this instead of being :foxnews:.

5. So attempting to redefine already clearly defined things, changing your position repeatedly, and attempting to redirect the arguments target constantly isn't moving goalposts but is instead presenting "facts." Glad we cleared that up.

6. You raised the point, now how this works is if you make the claim you present the evidence. I never raised a claim so you can go ahead and present your evidence. Wait you can't do that because it doesn't exist does it.

7. It has nothing to do with the amount of posts (never stop posting), the information you claimed was there is literally not there.

8. Yes a video of it occurring is evidence. You saying "oh look I did X so its true" is not evidence its an anecdote. Why do I have to explain these simple things?

9. I'll repeat what I've said before to you:

Its not that I won't hear you, its that I won't give any time of day to your talking points and that I expect you to support your points with evidence. Instead of being a :foxnews: dude you could you know cite some evidence and actually try to prove your points.

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Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#813 - 2012-12-23 04:28:59 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
If we could suicide cancel their industry job, I'd be much more inclined to agree with you.


Haulers are perfectly gankable. The amount of goods sold in Jita 4-4 that is actually manufactured on site has to be minuscule.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#814 - 2012-12-23 04:40:34 UTC
Sal Landry wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
If we could suicide cancel their industry job, I'd be much more inclined to agree with you.


Haulers are perfectly gankable. The amount of goods sold in Jita 4-4 that is actually manufactured on site has to be minuscule.


Since when does ganking a hauler have anything to do with canceling someone else' industry/science job?

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Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#815 - 2012-12-23 05:07:23 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Skydell wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
This is why high needs to be nerfed.
There is no incentive to go to do industry in null.

How many different ways do we have to say it? Holy ****.


Some of us were here before the Drone regions. Not the Drone region nerf but before the Drone region buff. We saw what Null did with their Null based industry.
Super Caps Online.
I think that's why CCP sent Industry back to High Sec. Trouble was, they nerfed Meta 0 drops and somehow Meta 4 got replaced by Pithi drops, Mining Missions stayed Nerfed.

My suggestion is similar to one someone else made but with a twist. More Grav sites but not of the high End kind. More Grav sites with Pyro, Plag, Scordite and Dense Veld. With enough large rocks to amount to a ship or two.

What I wouldn't give to have a Dense Veld Grav site with 20 rocks 100K each.


So you're saying that you'd be quite happy for hi-sec industry to face the same restrictions that nullsec industry does?

OK let's start with only 1 station per system

Are you still happy?


I'm not sure how you came up with that question, considering what I added but in fact, I would have no problems with it. I can't and don't speak for all of EVE but adding obstacles never put me out. It is still high sec. I will get the job done. That's not what makes Null Industry sour. It's the logistical nightmare of moving simple ingredients to and from in a small scale. Here is a test for you. Try doing high sec industry with a war dec and no neutral alts. That's Null industry. If it blinks, breathes or farts, kill it. Over and over. Again and again. It isn't an obstacle. It's a giant brick wall.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#816 - 2012-12-23 05:53:40 UTC
Skydell wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Skydell wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
This is why high needs to be nerfed.
There is no incentive to go to do industry in null.

How many different ways do we have to say it? Holy ****.


Some of us were here before the Drone regions. Not the Drone region nerf but before the Drone region buff. We saw what Null did with their Null based industry.
Super Caps Online.
I think that's why CCP sent Industry back to High Sec. Trouble was, they nerfed Meta 0 drops and somehow Meta 4 got replaced by Pithi drops, Mining Missions stayed Nerfed.

My suggestion is similar to one someone else made but with a twist. More Grav sites but not of the high End kind. More Grav sites with Pyro, Plag, Scordite and Dense Veld. With enough large rocks to amount to a ship or two.

What I wouldn't give to have a Dense Veld Grav site with 20 rocks 100K each.


So you're saying that you'd be quite happy for hi-sec industry to face the same restrictions that nullsec industry does?

OK let's start with only 1 station per system

Are you still happy?


I'm not sure how you came up with that question, considering what I added but in fact, I would have no problems with it. I can't and don't speak for all of EVE but adding obstacles never put me out. It is still high sec. I will get the job done. That's not what makes Null Industry sour. It's the logistical nightmare of moving simple ingredients to and from in a small scale. Here is a test for you. Try doing high sec industry with a war dec and no neutral alts. That's Null industry. If it blinks, breathes or farts, kill it. Over and over. Again and again. It isn't an obstacle. It's a giant brick wall.

...
You think logistics are the major obstacle, whereas the restriction on stations isn't?
Wow...

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#817 - 2012-12-23 06:29:25 UTC
Skydell wrote:
I'm not sure how you came up with that question, considering what I added but in fact, I would have no problems with it. I can't and don't speak for all of EVE but adding obstacles never put me out. It is still high sec. I will get the job done. That's not what makes Null Industry sour. It's the logistical nightmare of moving simple ingredients to and from in a small scale. Here is a test for you. Try doing high sec industry with a war dec and no neutral alts. That's Null industry. If it blinks, breathes or farts, kill it. Over and over. Again and again. It isn't an obstacle. It's a giant brick wall.

There is a total and complete difference between the logistics of moving stuff and actually building stuff.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#818 - 2012-12-23 08:33:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

So you're saying that you'd be quite happy for hi-sec industry to face the same restrictions that nullsec industry does?

OK let's start with only 1 station per system

Are you still happy?


I don't want to say anything about this since I am 75% agreeing with all what GS and other null players want.

But there's one thing that caught my eye. In one of the NPC nullsec stations I go sometimes (5J) the refine is 50%.
So if somebody nerfs hi sec to null sec levels, the only ones really affected are those without the refining skills. Aka Malcanis Law...

All NPC stations have 50% refining.

All of them. Highsec, nullsec, lowsec, it doesn't matter.


No.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#819 - 2012-12-23 08:39:09 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

2. Figures, I'd never think you'd say that. Roll

3. Yet you keep replying.

4. It does not make you an horrible person, it makes me think you are not enjoying the game and your zone goals at it should. For the rest, don't flatter yourself with the default stupid "I will say the guy says PvPers are sociopaths" because I PvP in all sorts of games since a decade+. ISK addicted people <> PvPer anyway.

5. 2-3 years ago that was exactly like you say, then CCP put soloable, farmable FW in direct competition for many "former good items" so there's no "dumb or smart", just "boned". To do what you say CCP would have to remove that FW overlap and this is not going to happen.


2 & 3. I'm sure I'm not the only one eagerly awaiting your meltdown.

4. The fact that you insinuate that things one does in a video game has any hint of what they are in RL speaks volumes, I don't care what kind of misdirection you attempt no one is buying it.

5. There is plenty of smart, those that do their research and find what items will maximize their LP value are the smart and those that do not are the dumb. The main point is it ties their income to the market, stripping away some of the isolation they are capable of operating in.



2&3: keep waiting. Lol

4. Being an ISK addict = RL reference? Hell yeah! Twisted Maybe some Icelandic millionaire got it.

5. They are in isolation only because nobody cares to probe their pimp boats outside their station and go kill them. Or just wait at a gate for that easily killed super-pimped Tengu.
They are content ready and ripe to be taken, if people don't bother it's not the 3B Tengu's guy fault.

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ConranAntoni
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#820 - 2012-12-23 09:05:25 UTC
An actual good thread on this craphole of a forum section, well I never.

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