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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

First post First post First post
Author
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#781 - 2012-12-22 18:28:40 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
And letting one neutral stop your entire bearing operation is you own fault.


Yet another reason highsec reward needs to be nerfed, presence of neutrals does not hamper any activity in highsec.

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Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#782 - 2012-12-22 18:31:33 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
This is why high needs to be nerfed.
There is no incentive to go to do industry in null.

How many different ways do we have to say it? Holy ****.


Some of us were here before the Drone regions. Not the Drone region nerf but before the Drone region buff. We saw what Null did with their Null based industry.
Super Caps Online.
I think that's why CCP sent Industry back to High Sec. Trouble was, they nerfed Meta 0 drops and somehow Meta 4 got replaced by Pithi drops, Mining Missions stayed Nerfed.

My suggestion is similar to one someone else made but with a twist. More Grav sites but not of the high End kind. More Grav sites with Pyro, Plag, Scordite and Dense Veld. With enough large rocks to amount to a ship or two.

What I wouldn't give to have a Dense Veld Grav site with 20 rocks 100K each.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#783 - 2012-12-22 18:32:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Varius Xeral
Marlona Sky wrote:
And letting one neutral stop your entire bearing operation is you own fault.


Holy ******* ****, I just plus repped a marlona sky post.

I feel dirty...and my world no longer makes sense.

I am going to go drink wine, and then likely end up crying in the shower fully clothed.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal

La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#784 - 2012-12-22 18:50:51 UTC
Skydell wrote:
Some of us were here before the Drone regions. Not the Drone region nerf but before the Drone region buff. We saw what Null did with their Null based industry.
Super Caps Online.
I think that's why CCP sent Industry back to High Sec. Trouble was, they nerfed Meta 0 drops and somehow Meta 4 got replaced by Pithi drops, Mining Missions stayed Nerfed.

My suggestion is similar to one someone else made but with a twist. More Grav sites but not of the high End kind. More Grav sites with Pyro, Plag, Scordite and Dense Veld. With enough large rocks to amount to a ship or two.

What I wouldn't give to have a Dense Veld Grav site with 20 rocks 100K each.


Supercaps online was more of a supercap imbalance than anything else, it wasn't an industry thing.

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foxnod
Perkone
Caldari State
#785 - 2012-12-22 19:38:25 UTC
Skydell wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
This is why high needs to be nerfed.
There is no incentive to go to do industry in null.

How many different ways do we have to say it? Holy ****.


Some of us were here before the Drone regions. Not the Drone region nerf but before the Drone region buff. We saw what Null did with their Null based industry.
Super Caps Online.
I think that's why CCP sent Industry back to High Sec. Trouble was, they nerfed Meta 0 drops and somehow Meta 4 got replaced by Pithi drops, Mining Missions stayed Nerfed.

My suggestion is similar to one someone else made but with a twist. More Grav sites but not of the high End kind. More Grav sites with Pyro, Plag, Scordite and Dense Veld. With enough large rocks to amount to a ship or two.

What I wouldn't give to have a Dense Veld Grav site with 20 rocks 100K each.



If we could build supercaps in empire, we would.
Trendon Evenstar
Olympus Gods
#786 - 2012-12-22 19:41:39 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
People continue to think that by changing hi sec, people will all of a sudden move to null or low


Nobody wants anyone to move anywhere. You guys stay right where you're at, you're fine. Stay right there. They just want the risk/hassle of living in 0.0 to be brought in line with the risk vs. reward of living in highsec. Thats all. It's a very simple concept.
Elrich Kouvo
Doomheim
#787 - 2012-12-22 19:50:03 UTC
The fact that industry is broken in null is CCP's fault. CCP takes a closed fist approach to null thinking the more harsh it is, the more people will move there. They are right. A bunch of people head there to find out that "player run ain't so fun." CCP should boost null and make it more fun, less tedious, and more rewarding. More will never break an economy. As rewarding as most folks claim high sec is, the economies there still work. High sec is fine, it could use more sites, but it definitely doesn't need a nerf.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#788 - 2012-12-22 20:36:24 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
And letting one neutral stop your entire bearing operation is you own fault.


Holy ******* ****, I just plus repped a marlona sky post.

I feel dirty...and my world no longer makes sense.

I am going to go drink wine, and then likely end up crying in the shower fully clothed.

What is really going to blow your mind is me currently reading an article on themittani.com...
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#789 - 2012-12-22 20:40:15 UTC
The only thing that blows my mind is that you've actually realized Mittani doesn't even write most of those articles.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#790 - 2012-12-22 20:47:01 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
The only thing that blows my mind is that you've actually realized Mittani doesn't even write most of those articles.

Your personal attacks against me are getting stale. Just mail them to me and I'll get back to you when I can.

Have a nice day.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#791 - 2012-12-22 22:26:09 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I either wrote it in an incomprehensible way


That's always the answer with you, just fyi


No, in your case I could write "the sky is blue" and then you'd reply it's green because someone up the command chain told you so.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#792 - 2012-12-22 22:27:05 UTC
Sal Landry wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
The best mods I got out of them are worth 70M and they drop every 3-4 sites. You also get other things that sell for 5-10M, in the end doing L4 missions imo is still better as you don't have to move everywhere to find a site and scan.


Pithi A-Type Small Shield Booster
Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster


They are so common... that I have yet to get one in 100 runs.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#793 - 2012-12-22 22:37:37 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
People continue to think that by changing hi sec, people will all of a sudden move to null or low.

That is like thinking that getting rid of a hi class restaraunt will drive people to Mc Donalds. It won't. .


People seem to think that allowing a hi class resteraunt to make a higher margin than MacDonads will drive Mc'D's out of business. It wont.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#794 - 2012-12-22 22:39:27 UTC
Skydell wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
This is why high needs to be nerfed.
There is no incentive to go to do industry in null.

How many different ways do we have to say it? Holy ****.


Some of us were here before the Drone regions. Not the Drone region nerf but before the Drone region buff. We saw what Null did with their Null based industry.
Super Caps Online.
I think that's why CCP sent Industry back to High Sec. Trouble was, they nerfed Meta 0 drops and somehow Meta 4 got replaced by Pithi drops, Mining Missions stayed Nerfed.

My suggestion is similar to one someone else made but with a twist. More Grav sites but not of the high End kind. More Grav sites with Pyro, Plag, Scordite and Dense Veld. With enough large rocks to amount to a ship or two.

What I wouldn't give to have a Dense Veld Grav site with 20 rocks 100K each.


So you're saying that you'd be quite happy for hi-sec industry to face the same restrictions that nullsec industry does?

OK let's start with only 1 station per system

Are you still happy?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#795 - 2012-12-22 22:49:36 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

1. Which ones?

2. I googled this Big Lie thing of yours and I have found this interesting paragraph:

(2) Beware of the zero-sum. When someone says that we need to nerf A in order to boost B, the first question you should ask is if there's a way to boost B without nerfing A. If B is unattractive, then nerfing A won't make it any better, it will only reduce the overall attractiveness of the game. That's not balancing the game; that's just spitefulness. Look for alternatives to attain your stated goals that won't nerf other people's activities. If nerfing is inherent, look for ways to mitigate or evade the effects on other players. No one is playing EVE to be your *****. If someone wants to nerf your A to boost their B, then you have an even better reason to look for alternatives to that nerf. Simply treating their proposal as yet another insidious attack on your play style only makes you look self-interested and parochial.

Odd, eh?

3. Keep hoping, I don't even know who is this Icefluxor guy.

4. I don't envy you. At all. Money driven people and people putting money on the altar are not tasting anything of life, neither RL nor in game. EvE should NOT be balanced on ISK, that's what a min maxing prostitute would do and this is THEIR bad.
EvE should be balanced over goals, where ISK is just a contour. You chose to have a shiny empire? Then THAT is your goal, not to be super-mega extra rich.
No, the hi sec noob with a 3B Tengu is not super-mega extra rich, he's just somebody that won't ever go beyond 1-2 ships then his "life" is done.

5. The LP idea would be good, if only LP would not have been gang r*ped repeatedly and put as exploitable material for FW farmers. Last time I checked, LP lost tons of value, that's another big nerf for hi sec. It's all to be seen if the FW fixes have reverted the loss, I have not had time to check it. Smartly invested LP used to be worth from 1200 to 3300 ISK per LP, how much do they go for, today?


2. This situation is what is the exception that proves the rule. As other posters have pointed out highsec industry is basically perfect. You cannot get better than perfect so the only option remaining is to nerf highsec manufacturing. It doesn't have to be devastating like all of you portray it to be. It just has to be enough that nullsec manufacturing can be made better than highsec manufacturing, hence the "empire building" sovereignty space. I would say its better for the game in general because it gives people a reason to hold space and gives people a valuable commodity others may want to take/destroy. It's a potential conflict driver.

3. Oh I will I find it funny that you've donned the tinfoil hat.

4. Tell me more about how using the only measurable reward metric in game makes me a horrible person IRL :allears:. I suppose PVPers are also sociopaths IRL? I suppose space moguls are also evil people IRL that only care about swimming in their Olympic pools full of money? Please tell me more about how videogame actions make us all terrible, sad people IRL :allears:.

5. That's the entire point, tethering mission runners income to the market. It puts them in a position where they are exposed to a more subtle form of PVP and it reduces an isk faucet. It also helps distinguish the smart from the dumb, the smart mission runner will be highly rewarded while the dumb one won't. This reward requires a risk to be taken though that fancy thing you purchased from the LP could have a terrible market and your investment would fail. It would need to go through its balancing act so its still a viable profession but they would no longer be as isolated as they are now.


2. Figures, I'd never think you'd say that. Roll

3. Yet you keep replying.

4. It does not make you an horrible person, it makes me think you are not enjoying the game and your zone goals at it should. For the rest, don't flatter yourself with the default stupid "I will say the guy says PvPers are sociopaths" because I PvP in all sorts of games since a decade+. ISK addicted people <> PvPer anyway.

5. 2-3 years ago that was exactly like you say, then CCP put soloable, farmable FW in direct competition for many "former good items" so there's no "dumb or smart", just "boned". To do what you say CCP would have to remove that FW overlap and this is not going to happen.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#796 - 2012-12-22 22:53:25 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

So you're saying that you'd be quite happy for hi-sec industry to face the same restrictions that nullsec industry does?

OK let's start with only 1 station per system

Are you still happy?


I don't want to say anything about this since I am 75% agreeing with all what GS and other null players want.

But there's one thing that caught my eye. In one of the NPC nullsec stations I go sometimes (5J) the refine is 50%.
So if somebody nerfs hi sec to null sec levels, the only ones really affected are those without the refining skills. Aka Malcanis Law...
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#797 - 2012-12-22 23:02:12 UTC
Wait. Now null sec doesn't want high seccers to head to null? That can't be accurate. After all this talk of risk/reward, balancing on principle and getting null industry alts to come home, "no one" wants high seccers to radiate to null? If that's true, then the proposed high sec nerf only translates to a massive influx of isk for null sov holders. So what happens after high sec is nerfed, if we then discover that characters in high sec were mostly there for the sec and its the risk that should've been nerfed - not the reward? Will the newly-enriched, null sec fatcats be here again next year pointing to charts and graphs showing us why high sec still has it too good? Where does it end? Call me crazy but when silver-tongued devils holding lit molotov cocktails are telling me that burning down my house is for my own good I'm just a little skeptical of the purity of their intent.

YK
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#798 - 2012-12-22 23:17:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Varius Xeral
Hisec indy alts of nullsec players aren't "hisec players" of their own, they're just alts. That's the whole point.

Really though, arguments based on obtuseness and pedantry are really powerful...and the ridiculous hyperbole only helps.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#799 - 2012-12-22 23:20:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
La Nariz wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

:words:


1. So now you're going to claim that a PVP server is not a PVP game okay that makes a lot of sense. It's a PVP game it may not be a good PVP game but that does not matter. It's economy is terrible I can agree but it is still an economy.

2. You still haven't answered that contradiction, although the hand waiving you provided was impressive. Let me guess you are going to begin a website to monitor CSM voting then pitch a huge tantrum when highsec pubbie X does not win.

3. So now were bordering on racism, please tell me more :allears:.

4. So you admit that you misrepresented your knowledge of what occurred?

5. You can bring your evidence to argue your case I'm not putting out effort for you anymore. All you seem to do is move goalposts and attempt to redefine already clear cut things so they can suit your purpose.

6. You made the claim you provide the evidence.

7. If only it were in the past few pages. It's amazing that normal people can get something from nothing, I have to learn that trick.

8 & 9. How many times do I have to say that anecdotal evidence is not evidence? Anyone can tell you that, you're supposed to be a smart person and know these things too.


1. I could imagine you would not see the difference between WoW and a PvP game if you were not an EvE player. But you ARE an EvE player how can you even compare WoW with a real PvP game? Ever played any of Darkfall, DAoC, Warhammer? Those are PvP games. Even GW2 is more of a PvP game than WoW and that's a theme park.

2. You and the other guys pretend all people have to fall to your boring bullcrap made just to raise rubble. No, I don't care about you being a PvPer, about yourself saying I say you are something bad IRL, about yourself saying I am going to do something with CSM. You are a LOBBY, clear and sharp, nothing ideological more, nothing ideological less. You do your interests and I could respect that if you did not keep painting yourself either as the "public enemy" or the "victim" or "selfless heroes out to save the game".
So, stop playing the "everyone hate us" role and similar bull, it really does not suit the richest and largest alliance in game.

3. Yes because saying an American knows what's a lobby is, it is clearly racist Roll
I mentioned American because in other countries people don't know what a lobby is, they don't exist or are not legal nor allowed to officially exist.

4. I misrepresented what's not relevant (as I am not in the alliance) but wrote down what's relevant (an exploit *made* and derisive thread done to CCP).

5. Whatever suits you. I am trying to provide more details to try make it clearer, if to you that's moving goal posts, guess what I don't care. As I said, let's agree to disagre and be done with it.

6. Nope I never said the intended game play is to have progression from hi sec to null sec, you did.

7. Not my fault you 5-6 people keep enlarging this thread more than a Viagra carton.

8. Well since I am certainly not the most hard core nor most capable player in the world yet I seem to manage at what you find impossible / unbelievable then that anedoctal evidence becomes evidence.
I also would have called anedoctal evidence the possibility to grab drones off opponents then I have seen Kil2 doing it and thus it became evidence.






Anyway we are at the end of an argument ping pong and I got bored.
What I had to say, I said. Feel free to ignore it.
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#800 - 2012-12-22 23:32:06 UTC
What can I say Varius? I believe you should stick to what you know and I'm pretty skilled at ridiculous hyperbole. People are debating balance on principle without discussing the effect it will have on wealth in the game (and mostly by people who stand to benefit substantially, consolidating more of the game's isk (power) in the hands of a few) people are using the concentration of characters in high sec as a rubric to measure game imbalance - but don't want those players to leave, and people are debating making null sec industry "viable" when demand sets price and the demand is always going to be in high sec as long as there is sec.

And its my hyperbole that you find ridiculous?

YK