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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

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Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#761 - 2012-12-22 14:26:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
ihcn wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
No amount of buffing nullsec will give nullsec manufacture advantages over any other area of space. As you yourself have admitted there is an abundance of invulnerable slots and perfect refine. The cost of slots is negligible to the point that using open public ones when available and reserving POS space for types you cannot gain easy access to is the norm.

Since POS's cost to operate and outpost have great costs to build and upgrade this means that even if manufacturing bandwidth were increased there is no compensation for the increased risk, including individual risk in space during logistics and risks involving potential eviction from where your facilities are located or their destruction, and large upfront and/or recurring cost involved in creating and maintaining facilities.

Nullsec needs a place to work up from and so long as inconsequential facility costs and perfect refine keeps highsec at the theoretical top nullsec has no where to go and no real draw.

You're never going to drive this home. Some people just think they should be able to play the game with zero risk and be competitive with people who are laying everything on the line.

Exactly what I was thinking.

Seems some people can't seem to get there heads around this.

You can't be better then perfect. High sec manufacturing is pretty much perfect, and you can do null manufacturing damn near perfect as well.

Nothing they could buff would actually put null ahead of high sec in any way.

Being able to do industry as well as null sec without any of the risk or effort isn't balanced. It's not worse because there are fewer slots, not because some of the slots are priced rediculously, not because it costs a little more to build T2, not because we make less than high due to lower volumes.

It's worse because you gain nothing by moving.
You can't really make high sec any better then it already is, and with a little planning and effort I can produce just as well in null.

High sec isn't required to match the effort and risk to get the same manufacturing benefits that I get, that is the imbalance.
If we were talking about missions it would be the same thing as high sec lvl 4 missions paying the same as null sec lvl 4's. No one would do the null ones because you get nothing for the added risk and effort; this is the problem with null industry.

Null
More risk, effort, smaller markets, and you must import from high.

High sec
Next to no risk, little effort, considerably larger markets, and you don't have to do the importing from null yourself.

This is why high needs to be nerfed.
There is no incentive to go to do industry in null.
Randolph Rothstein
whatever corp.
#762 - 2012-12-22 14:52:41 UTC
i still dont understand whats wrong with no risk industry in high sec
fukier
Gallente Federation
#763 - 2012-12-22 15:24:46 UTC
Quote:
No player caused the problems null is now facing.


you are wrong about this one... seleene our current CSM leader was CCP abathur who was in charge of the failed dominion expansion sov rebalance...

The problem was that they put out a half assed attempt to fix sov and then left it for what 3-4 yaers without any itteration?!?!?

and from the looks of it its either pos rework this year or new sov mechanics... tbh i hope they focus on sov mechanics and industry buff...

and i am more in favour of not nerfing high sec too much but moreover using it as baseline for making low sec and null sec industry better...

as it stands missions and isk faucets are already better in null and low sec all we need is an improved sov mechanic and a reason to do industry in low/null...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#764 - 2012-12-22 15:45:39 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
The best mods I got out of them are worth 70M and they drop every 3-4 sites. You also get other things that sell for 5-10M, in the end doing L4 missions imo is still better as you don't have to move everywhere to find a site and scan.


Pithi A-Type Small Shield Booster
Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#765 - 2012-12-22 16:19:53 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

Your analysis is so wrong headed I can only assume that it's some kind of satire. If industry in sov 0.0 became viable, you seriously think that any remotely sensible alliance leadership would cripple it? And if they did, that their alliance wouldn't immediately be at a competitive disadvantage to those that didn't?


I have a quite solid impression I either wrote it in an incomprehensible way or you read it almost the opposite of what I meant.


v.v. wrote:

Why? Because let's assume for pure sake of simplicity that 3 quarters of hi sec industry characters are null sec alts (they keep claiming hi sec is so full of null sec alts, no?).
Even if the hi sec costs are small, they add up when used by the thousands and provide an ISK sink.

The big alliances top brass tend to greatly minimize it, but a big reason they want industry in there is for their endless greed at taxing the "grunts" in all the possible ways. So they want industry in their home because that will make their logistics easier and cheaper but also for the taxes.
Now, a grunt paying ISK in taxes is not an ISK sink. ISK just goes to their overlord and stays in game.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Zol Interbottom
Blimp Requisition Services
#766 - 2012-12-22 16:36:09 UTC
im probably wrong, but i sort of think of it like this

High Sec income gets nerfed or Low/Null Sec gets buffed so they are similar
the Goons and TEST now have insane amounts of cashflow, more than any High Sec alliance
the Goons and TEST are now unmatchable and wipe out or absorb most other alliance
no new alliance can get into Null due to the sheer amount of money and power that the two major alliances have
Null stagnates

also, if you want to complain about the money, station traders make the real money in High Sec, crazy money if you can be bothered with it, you wanna complain about money, complain about them

"If you're quitting for the 3rd time you clearly ain't quitting" - Chribba
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#767 - 2012-12-22 16:39:29 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

:words:


1. So now you're going to claim that a PVP server is not a PVP game okay that makes a lot of sense. It's a PVP game it may not be a good PVP game but that does not matter. It's economy is terrible I can agree but it is still an economy.

2. You still haven't answered that contradiction, although the hand waiving you provided was impressive. Let me guess you are going to begin a website to monitor CSM voting then pitch a huge tantrum when highsec pubbie X does not win.

3. So now were bordering on racism, please tell me more :allears:.

4. So you admit that you misrepresented your knowledge of what occurred?

5. You can bring your evidence to argue your case I'm not putting out effort for you anymore. All you seem to do is move goalposts and attempt to redefine already clear cut things so they can suit your purpose.

6. You made the claim you provide the evidence.

7. If only it were in the past few pages. It's amazing that normal people can get something from nothing, I have to learn that trick.

8 & 9. How many times do I have to say that anecdotal evidence is not evidence? Anyone can tell you that, you're supposed to be a smart person and know these things too.

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#768 - 2012-12-22 16:50:34 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

1. Which ones?

2. I googled this Big Lie thing of yours and I have found this interesting paragraph:

(2) Beware of the zero-sum. When someone says that we need to nerf A in order to boost B, the first question you should ask is if there's a way to boost B without nerfing A. If B is unattractive, then nerfing A won't make it any better, it will only reduce the overall attractiveness of the game. That's not balancing the game; that's just spitefulness. Look for alternatives to attain your stated goals that won't nerf other people's activities. If nerfing is inherent, look for ways to mitigate or evade the effects on other players. No one is playing EVE to be your *****. If someone wants to nerf your A to boost their B, then you have an even better reason to look for alternatives to that nerf. Simply treating their proposal as yet another insidious attack on your play style only makes you look self-interested and parochial.

Odd, eh?

3. Keep hoping, I don't even know who is this Icefluxor guy.

4. I don't envy you. At all. Money driven people and people putting money on the altar are not tasting anything of life, neither RL nor in game. EvE should NOT be balanced on ISK, that's what a min maxing prostitute would do and this is THEIR bad.
EvE should be balanced over goals, where ISK is just a contour. You chose to have a shiny empire? Then THAT is your goal, not to be super-mega extra rich.
No, the hi sec noob with a 3B Tengu is not super-mega extra rich, he's just somebody that won't ever go beyond 1-2 ships then his "life" is done.

5. The LP idea would be good, if only LP would not have been gang r*ped repeatedly and put as exploitable material for FW farmers. Last time I checked, LP lost tons of value, that's another big nerf for hi sec. It's all to be seen if the FW fixes have reverted the loss, I have not had time to check it. Smartly invested LP used to be worth from 1200 to 3300 ISK per LP, how much do they go for, today?


2. This situation is what is the exception that proves the rule. As other posters have pointed out highsec industry is basically perfect. You cannot get better than perfect so the only option remaining is to nerf highsec manufacturing. It doesn't have to be devastating like all of you portray it to be. It just has to be enough that nullsec manufacturing can be made better than highsec manufacturing, hence the "empire building" sovereignty space. I would say its better for the game in general because it gives people a reason to hold space and gives people a valuable commodity others may want to take/destroy. It's a potential conflict driver.

3. Oh I will I find it funny that you've donned the tinfoil hat.

4. Tell me more about how using the only measurable reward metric in game makes me a horrible person IRL :allears:. I suppose PVPers are also sociopaths IRL? I suppose space moguls are also evil people IRL that only care about swimming in their Olympic pools full of money? Please tell me more about how videogame actions make us all terrible, sad people IRL :allears:.

5. That's the entire point, tethering mission runners income to the market. It puts them in a position where they are exposed to a more subtle form of PVP and it reduces an isk faucet. It also helps distinguish the smart from the dumb, the smart mission runner will be highly rewarded while the dumb one won't. This reward requires a risk to be taken though that fancy thing you purchased from the LP could have a terrible market and your investment would fail. It would need to go through its balancing act so its still a viable profession but they would no longer be as isolated as they are now.

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ihcn
Life. Universe. Everything.
#769 - 2012-12-22 16:51:23 UTC
Randolph Rothstein wrote:
i still dont understand whats wrong with no risk industry in high sec

Every other activity in the game is surrounded with risk vs reward decisions. "if i do x, i'll get more reward, but it's more risky".

mining and manufacturing don't have these decisions
ihcn
Life. Universe. Everything.
#770 - 2012-12-22 16:53:55 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
It also helps distinguish the smart from the dumb, the smart mission runner will be highly rewarded while the dumb one won't.

You're never going to make any headway trying to sell this idea to dumb people. Why would they want changes that would make the game harder for them?
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#771 - 2012-12-22 16:58:03 UTC
Randolph Rothstein wrote:
i still dont understand whats wrong with no risk industry in high sec


It's against one of the core tenets of the game, a proportional risk:reward ratio. Also from what I understand a similar situation destroyed another PVP MMO, Ultima Online.

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#772 - 2012-12-22 16:58:33 UTC
ihcn wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
It also helps distinguish the smart from the dumb, the smart mission runner will be highly rewarded while the dumb one won't.

You're never going to make any headway trying to sell this idea to dumb people. Why would they want changes that would make the game harder for them?


Shhhh they all think they are smart.

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Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#773 - 2012-12-22 17:04:00 UTC
A thread this bad could only get so long with the help of an entire alliance.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#774 - 2012-12-22 17:17:35 UTC
People continue to think that by changing hi sec, people will all of a sudden move to null or low.

That is like thinking that getting rid of a hi class restaraunt will drive people to Mc Donalds. It won't. The people will just look for a different restaraunt that suits their tastes.

If you don't think nerfing hi sec will do anything but drive people away from the game you live in a closet.

EvE allows for a wide range of gameplay. Find your niche, enjoy what you like, and let others enjoy theirs. Stop trying to turn your problems into other peeps problems.
Bump Truck
Doomheim
#775 - 2012-12-22 17:22:47 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
People continue to think that by changing hi sec, people will all of a sudden move to null or low.

That is like thinking that getting rid of a hi class restaraunt will drive people to Mc Donalds. It won't. The people will just look for a different restaraunt that suits their tastes.

If you don't think nerfing hi sec will do anything but drive people away from the game you live in a closet.

EvE allows for a wide range of gameplay. Find your niche, enjoy what you like, and let others enjoy theirs. Stop trying to turn your problems into other peeps problems.



You've got to read what I wrote before posting like this. I addressed all of these points in my original post and yet you make them anyway, without any refinement or nuance.

Nerfing HighSec isn't about forcing people to move or forcing people to play in a certain way, it's about regional balance and each region having a meaningful role in the game.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#776 - 2012-12-22 17:29:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaju Enki
Nexus Day wrote:
People continue to think that by changing hi sec, people will all of a sudden move to null or low.

That is like thinking that getting rid of a hi class restaraunt will drive people to Mc Donalds. It won't. The people will just look for a different restaraunt that suits their tastes.

If you don't think nerfing hi sec will do anything but drive people away from the game you live in a closet.

EvE allows for a wide range of gameplay. Find your niche, enjoy what you like, and let others enjoy theirs. Stop trying to turn your problems into other peeps problems.


Nuisance is EvE Online second name. If all "they" want is to play in a isk free paradise carebear heaven, they don't belong in this game.

The Tears Must Flow
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#777 - 2012-12-22 17:52:57 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
This is why high needs to be nerfed.
There is no incentive to go to do industry in null.

How many different ways do we have to say it? Holy ****.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Shylari Avada
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#778 - 2012-12-22 18:03:37 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
People continue to think that by changing hi sec, people will all of a sudden move to null or low.


I'd say at this point it's not about getting people to null/low when there are already people there, but making things more rewarding for choosing to live outside of Free Cookie Cupcake Land. Nobody wants to nerf empire into oblivion they just want the natural Risk vs. Reward balance of things.

CCP can't just increase the rewards in Low and further more in Null without causing insane mudflation, but they can reduce highsec by a small margin and increase low/null to bring reward inline with risk. It's been said dozens of times in this thread already; but Empire income is non-stop and can support an infinite number of players, while in nullsec- a fully upgraded system can support a handful of players, until a neut shows up.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#779 - 2012-12-22 18:12:58 UTC
And letting one neutral stop your entire bearing operation is you own fault.
TharOkha
0asis Group
#780 - 2012-12-22 18:27:28 UTC
Shylari Avada wrote:
while in nullsec- a fully upgraded system can support a handful of players, until a neut shows up.


I dont know why but this reminds me AFK cloaking whines

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell