EVE General Discussion

What would happen if high sec manufacturing required a POS and manufacturing arrays?

I'm neither pro-high sec, nor pro-null sec, but I am interested in the game's health. It's easy to write "risk = reward" but for me, that is not the end of it. I'd agree that reward should scale with risk and that efforts to reduce risk aversion should probably be attempted in game.

But my opinion remains that the game should also be rewarding cooperation. A 160-man high sec indy corp going on their lil 40 ship mining ops is generating plenty of pgc. And that pgc is far more important to the game than a dozen guys flying low sec solo taking risks. I'd just like to see a system where both playstyles can contribute to pgc with internalized pressure to radiate to lower sec systems.

Or, as I've already suggested, a system where the game itself takes characters to a noob combat academy maybe in low sec (where upon graduation players can fly frigates, dessies, and cruisers) and then maybe even a 2nd tier of "training" housed in null sec (where upon graduation players can fly battlecruisers, etc.) Recruitment could be tied in connecting new graduates with relevant pvp/null corps near their academy. Maybe before graduating players could even select from a list of "recruiters" and have news of their graduation mailed to their chosen prospects.

This way the game would not only generate a steady stream of new pvp players, but it would 1) physically deliver them to low/null, and 2) make the choice to first go to low sec while a player is yet uninvested.

All I know is if we're nerfing high to fix null, I want to be absolutely sure no other options exist to fix null without the nerf. High sec has zero player representation. And contrary to popular belief, it's not that easy to survive in high sec now. My game is funded with cash. Between work and family, I'm sure not plexxing any accounts.

YK

Right now, if all manufacturing required a PoS, Eve would grind to a halt. Because PoS manufacturing is currently not viable on a large scale, and only done normally for items that require it like Capitals.
That's why I've been saying, do the Null buffs first, fix PoS manufacturing to actually work without being crazy tedious & micromanaging supplies.

Then you can worry about if you need to remove any abilities or capacity from the game.

There is something wrong with taking some form of fun away from the game. Industry in high sec is fine. CCP should nerf the risk of low sec or boost its reward, but leave high sec alone.

See, people likes to be empathic with others who clearly don't feel good where they are and their mechanics have shortcomings... until they start saying these things that smell of absurd.
How do you manage to make 10M per hour running anoms (AFK mining = mining ice)?




Last Hulkageddon yielded some *trillions* worth of ships destroyed.
Also, hi sec mining HAS zero reward - actually broker fees make it a small ISK sink - the only rewarding them is YOU buying their minerals. They can't just go dump minerals to some magic NPC.




That's why I'd like to see hi sec being removed, it's the only fair fix. But that's not going to happen, CCP want to pay their employees.




Officer mods and pirate BPCs don't exactly sell for chips.
A guy mining with 3 accounts can be AFK only for about 15 seconds, a guy with 7 is working his ass. Been there, done that.
A guy ICE mining can be AFK but then his income is L2 mission worthy. Work : reward and ice mining risk >>>> roid mining risk so ice mining is not a good idea.




Copper, both in WoW and GW2 are a big money maker. Both can be botted, in WoW copper is in no-pvp starter areas (used to be, I don't play it since a while) and when I digged copper, the next money maker was several tiers up: mithril, a level 55 or so ore, dug in that region with a lot of Yetis and moonkins.

Are WoW and GW2 broken? WoW markets are quite wonky (too much is bind on equip etc) but like for EvE, there is demand vs supply factor. Highbies can't be arsed going digging menial stuff, yet everybody who want to grind a new craft profession must use that material.

Not only, I made a *fortune* selling lowbie enchantments, like 10 times as much as I'd make with max level ones. Few bothered doing those things so who did, would get rich.

Nothing. Every industrial guy, even part time, set up a POS to research their BPOs. Adding some arrays? No problem! It's not like it's a first time event, look at T3 construction.




What they forget is that once null sec industry is fixed, it'll be ISK nerfed.

WHY, oh WHY? So much work, so many "campaigns" and mittani.com blog posts for a NERF?

Sadly it'll happen.

Why? Because let's assume for pure sake of simplicity that 3 quarters of hi sec industry characters are null sec alts (they keep claiming hi sec is so full of null sec alts, no?).
Even if the hi sec costs are small, they add up when used by the thousands and provide an ISK sink.

The big alliances top brass tend to greatly minimize it, but a big reason they want industry in there is for their endless greed at taxing the "grunts" in all the possible ways. So they want industry in their home because that will make their logistics easier and cheaper but also for the taxes.
Now, a grunt paying ISK in taxes is not an ISK sink. ISK just goes to their overlord and stays in game.

But moving 3/4 hi sec alts in null sec means a lot of ISK won't be sunk any more, just handed to those overlords. That will cause inflation because ISK stopped sinking in the hi sec to null sec move.

This means that in order to keep the balance, null sec industry facilities should ALSO keep the NPC taxes, as small as they are. The taxes will have to hit an amount of players equal to those leaving hi sec, because doing the "obvious" (over-taxing the remaining hi sec industrialists, just to nerf them some more) is anti-cyclical. The more hi sec guys leave, the less the others will pay, creating an accounting "hole" even if you nerf the remaining hi sec industrialists.


Finally, I totally agree with those stating that the whole "migrate industry to null sec" process would have to be done in progressive steps, because the consequences of any of the various steps are unknown and very interwined with lots of variables with unknown influence.


Finally 2 , hi sec roids mining WILL become more profitable in the next months. Removing bots and adding cargo to ships to disincentivize botting reveals the truth: mining sucks and supply will be well below demand for parts of the year.

Well, the "lies" is somewhat a strong adjective.
They are being pushed and driven from above by the "more equal among peers" as it's easy to see in similar kinds of community.
Now, the fun fact is that most agree with their points, I could easily say I agree with 75% of what they say.

But the way it's presented is ideological, perhaps because it's hard to tell all the members the whole economy blurb so it's easier to paint the "evil hi seccer", the "hi sec (ALWAYS described as AFK) miners that should be all gassed", the default 30B pimpboat missioneer and so on.

That's also well described in that "Big Lie" article.

So even agreeing 75% with them in the end one feels hurt by the constant commonplace ideological talk.
And "just" agreeing 75% with them makes you a sort of enemy! 100% or die!

This seriously make people go all out defensive and then the wall vs wall arguments begin.


This, when the best approach would be reasoned and pacific.
Ideally, the CSM could contact a GS delegate (I'd love he'd be Aryth because he's not self influenced by ideology but Mynna could still be ok), 2 other non "GS blue" large null sec alliance delegates, 3 WH top corps delegates, 3 low sec delegates and 3 hi sec delegates and have them expose their plans, their issues and so on.

After that, a list of priorities could be written, the priority would take into account desirability for players to go there and acceptance by all the involved parties. So, the much needed things all agree about would be quickly sent to CCP for possible implementation.
IE adding production / refinery / research facilities in null sec and allowing more than one station per system could easily find everyone OK and could get a CCP green flag ASAP.

Once implemented that, THEN a second meeting would involve a review of the consequences and only THEN see what and how much has to be buffed or nerfed.

That'd be much quicker, peaceful and constructive than literally spending YEARS debating on the forums.

I agree with you just a "nerf highsec and walk away" strategy is not going to work, null needs a lot of change.

I disagree that you can leave highsec alone. It's just the perfect storm, so many roids, so many manufacturing slots, perfect refine in every station, stations everywhere, logisitics companies who are cheap and ubiquitous, it's an industrial powerhouse that can't be beat. And you can't invade, it's safe forever.

It will always dominate industry unless some changes are made. Just a tax increase would be enough but it can't remain so unbelievably sweet if null is to have a chance.

So if I am to understand you correctly, making nullsec industry significantly better than hi-sec will destroy nullsec industry because 0.0 alliance leaders are dribbling retards with identical alliance policies and incapable of learning from mistakes.

Pro-tip™: Not all alliances are like IRC.

Your analysis is so wrong headed I can only assume that it's some kind of satire. If industry in sov 0.0 became viable, you seriously think that any remotely sensible alliance leadership would cripple it? And if they did, that their alliance wouldn't immediately be at a competitive disadvantage to those that didn't?

I have a quite solid impression I either wrote it in an incomprehensible way or you read it almost the opposite of what I meant.

That's always the answer with you, just fyi