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Rookie trader, advice please
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Aky Elrond
Guardian Angels of Alfheim
#1 - 2012-12-15 13:18:19 UTC
Hello trader community!

I do quit a bit of trading with this char and have about 2 bil to go.
What can I do to lower the isk I loose on sell/buy orders?
I am training now broker relations, than accounting.
What about standings to station owner NPC? How high must it be to have a drop?

This is my actual skilling:
Accounting 4 -> 5 (in 14 days)
Daytrading 5
Margin Trading 3
Marketing 5
Retail 4
Trade 5
Broker Relations 3-> 4 (in 1,5 days)

Base Broker Fee 0,85%
Transaction Tax 0,90%

Standings to station owner NPC: 1,47 (working on that)

Thank you!
Admiral Koutsoudas
Nepereta Inc.
#2 - 2012-12-15 13:46:05 UTC
Not sure if this is still up-to-date, but this should awnser your question about standings.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1313589#post1313589
Barakach
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-12-15 17:41:03 UTC
Brokers Fees graph

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-_xqBCSLUXSU/T4d-zx3CpVI/AAAAAAAAATs/zSRJj5gLUNw/w880-h609-k/eve-market-order-broker-fees-20110417.png

I have 0.24% brokers fee in Jita with my trader alt. Has over 8.0 faction and corp
Aky Elrond
Guardian Angels of Alfheim
#4 - 2012-12-16 09:14:44 UTC
thanks guys for the info.

So, not comming by without farming standings, i started out doing so. I got ganked twice while missioning/checking out some low-sec roids Oops and forgot to update the clone after first death....so I lost Exp in Marketing, 22h of re-training...

Know I face a new question: I started doing "security" missions lvl 1 and 2, but the lvls 2 where not the best thing for a trader (missions took to long in a few hours improvised training for missiles, Talwar and some shield skills - so I needed to keep enemy away and bore them to death with my missiles), so I jumped 3 times and got to a new "distribution" agent where I continued missioning (nothing a probe with cargo extenders can't handle, easy stuff). Agent is also from Brutor Tribe, so my standings towards them continued to get higher. Somewhere between missions I realised that my "Base broker fees" droped from 0,85 to 0,51. Nice, I said to myself.....however, this only seems to be the case in the last sistem I ran the distribution missions. Why is that? I tried it out 3 jumps back where I started and also during missioning in other systems and there it is still 0,85, although I am still in Minmatar space and in Brutor Tribe stations?!?!?
This got me confused and kind of angry, so now I started to train "Procurement" in order to place the buy orders in the system with 0,85 from the system where broker fees are 0,51....And this meens I had to postpone "Broker relation" and "Accounting" X

Why does this happen? I thought that I need in my case Brutor Tribe and Minmatar Republic standings and that they apply in all matari space when I am in Brutor Tribe stations. Do I need to mission in every station I want trading going on?
Aky Elrond
Guardian Angels of Alfheim
#5 - 2012-12-18 13:38:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Aky Elrond
Can somebody help me understand following stuff, please?

1) to which value will my transaction tax fall after training accounting from 4->5? curently it is 0,90% (my other char without Accounting has 1,50)
2) why do I have different broker fees in two different stations owned by the same corp, in the same regions? Standings to corp and factions should apply whenever I am in one of their stations, no mather which station it is right? Or do Agent standings also count?
El 1974
Green Visstick High
#6 - 2012-12-18 16:01:39 UTC
1) 0.75
2) Broker fees may be lower in faction warfare space. For the rest it should be the same in every station owned by the same corporation. The FW discount doesn't apply to remotely placed buyorders.
Aky Elrond
Guardian Angels of Alfheim
#7 - 2012-12-18 19:34:59 UTC
thank you very much for bringing some light in.
Yes, seems you are right, the lower broker fee was in FW system...did not think about that, thought it had something to do with the agent there, since I ran more missions in that station. Know it seems I trained

So Accounting lowers the transaction fee to 0,75 and if I got it right, standings don't affect transaction tax. So how are some of you traders getting to values of 0,25?
Also one more question: how do i get the standings increasing? I only see 3 ways in my case (brutor seems to offer only two kinds of agents/missions), none is quit good. Maybe I'm missing somethig:
a) security missions: kind of tough for a trader and sooner or later after some more lvl 2's I could not continue with the 3's cause of lacking skills
b) distribution missions: brutor has only 3 agents, all level 2.... what afterwards?
c) pay isk for someone to farm reputation for me (by doing the combat missions)...if I had this kind of isk, maybe I would not bother the high taxes anymore.
Is there any other route? Read somewhere something about either collecting ore buying tags and giving them to agents. What tags and what kind of agents? the brutor tribe info only shows the distribution and security agents.
Or maybe I should simply change the corp I'm grinding for (maybe pick something with mining missions). Would be quite a shame for the 1,84 standings I farmed so far and the fact that brutor has refinery - thinking of maybe training a bit in direction of mining, reprocessing, hauling after I finish what is important for me in the trading line of skills

Any advice is highly appreciated.
Ronix Aideron
Zymurgy Corp.
#8 - 2012-12-18 20:32:27 UTC
The only way that I know to raise your standings with a corp.

Mission Running (There are even level 4 distribution missions).
Connections Skill (this only works with corps where you have a positive status)

Start the day off slow and taper off from there.

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Ronix_Aideron
El 1974
Green Visstick High
#9 - 2012-12-18 22:27:13 UTC
Brutor Tribe indeed has only 3 distribution agents, of which 2 are in lowsec (Amamake) - too risky imo.

There are two different taxes:
- transaction tax (sales tax), this tax is only affected by the Accounting skill
- broker fees, this fee is affected by the Broker Relations skill, as well as your standing to the station broker's corporation and faction. This fee can be brought down significantly.

You could switch to a different corporation that has more and better distribution agents. If you pick a Minmatar corporation, you will at least keep the faction standing you have gained so far. The faction standings are harder to gain than the corporation standings. Problem is that if you are trading in Rens, you want standing with the owner of that station to reduce the broker fees for sale orders (you can put up buy orders for a wider range from a nearby station where you have better standing, to include Rens and haul the stuff to Rens).
I think that grinding the lvl 2 distribution agent in Ivar is the best option, switch to security missions when you get 2 missions within 4 hours to lowsec. Or pick another Hub where it's easier to grind the standings.
Aky Elrond
Guardian Angels of Alfheim
#10 - 2012-12-19 09:29:58 UTC
El 1974 wrote:
Brutor Tribe indeed has only 3 distribution agents, of which 2 are in lowsec (Amamake) - too risky imo.

There are two different taxes:
- transaction tax (sales tax), this tax is only affected by the Accounting skill
- broker fees, this fee is affected by the Broker Relations skill, as well as your standing to the station broker's corporation and faction. This fee can be brought down significantly.

You could switch to a different corporation that has more and better distribution agents. If you pick a Minmatar corporation, you will at least keep the faction standing you have gained so far. The faction standings are harder to gain than the corporation standings. Problem is that if you are trading in Rens, you want standing with the owner of that station to reduce the broker fees for sale orders (you can put up buy orders for a wider range from a nearby station where you have better standing, to include Rens and haul the stuff to Rens).
I think that grinding the lvl 2 distribution agent in Ivar is the best option, switch to security missions when you get 2 missions within 4 hours to lowsec. Or pick another Hub where it's easier to grind the standings.


thanks for your patience Lol

I'll run distribution from Ivar. And later I'll settle somewhere more quiet for trading, Rens is to intense....this should be my alt, but I find myself playing just her for updating orders, or else I do not buy/sell anything Shocked
I'm currently training connections to 3. If I understood right, it will not affect standing for Broker Fee, but it shoul increase the amount of standing overall. And I am thinking in 3 levels in Distribution Connections, to increase standing gain / mission. Broker Relation and Accounting will have to wait, these other two skills are short time to learn.

So now I am on the right track to lower broker fees. How about Sales tax (transaction tax)? If it is only affected by Accounting, how do some players get it below 0,75 (this value you said I will achieve after finally training Accounting from 4 to 5)?
Yvormessier
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-12-19 09:54:31 UTC
Remember that if you train procurement to set remote buy orders you will also have to train visibility to give them range.
Aky Elrond
Guardian Angels of Alfheim
#12 - 2012-12-19 11:19:25 UTC
thank you, already aware of this. But it is on the bottom of my priority list right now, because i seldom use procurement atm. I will pimp a little bit the connections so I can farm more efficient, than Accounting and Broker relations both from 4 to 5. Only after maybe Visibility.
What about the sales tax question? it's bugging me, loss with it is huuuuuge Oops
El 1974
Green Visstick High
#13 - 2012-12-19 15:05:58 UTC
You cannot reduce sales tax below 0.75%.
Lolar55
Banana Toaster
#14 - 2012-12-19 16:07:16 UTC
run missions for caldari navy there are people who provide standings increase as a service so you can get it faster.
Aky Elrond
Guardian Angels of Alfheim
#15 - 2012-12-20 11:13:17 UTC
@ El 1974: Barackach induced me in error, he said he has both broker and sales 0,25 and I couldn't see how he got sales that low. Thank you

@Lolar 55: I know there are people offering such service, but with only two bill I cannot afford to pay for it, or else I will not have capital for market investments Oops

thanks to all that helped me get the ropes. I now know what I have to do:
Accounting to 5 (doing it right now, takes a while)
Broker fees to 5 (afterwards)
Distribution connections for easier rep grinding (after holidays, cause I won't have time to grind anymore this year)
finding an off-hub
training for some hauler ship.
maybe training refining skills and some mining.

Question about hauling: how risky is it if I only haul in 0,7-1,0? Thinking about hauling stuff from off-hub to main-hub.
is mining/refining worth it for a trader, as supplementary income (also having some hauling abilities)?

PS: I begin to think this will become more or less the char I will show some loving in the next few month....wanted to get into PvP with my main, but actual budget is far too low Lol
Bob Killan
Dzark Asylum
#16 - 2012-12-20 15:48:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Bob Killan
Aky Elrond wrote:


Question about hauling: how risky is it if I only haul in 0,7-1,0? Thinking about hauling stuff from off-hub to main-hub.
is mining/refining worth it for a trader, as supplementary income (also having some hauling abilities)?

PS: I begin to think this will become more or less the char I will show some loving in the next few month....wanted to get into PvP with my main, but actual budget is far too low Lol


Risk for hauling isnt about where you are and what security your in, its more about what your carrying.

about 50% of your cargo can be collected when your ship exploads. IE in a frieghter if you hauling 2bil of stuff 1 bill will be lootable. If the pirates can kill you with 10 BS worth 100mil each they will break even unless their lucky so it not worth ganking you. However if you were carrying 10bil of stuff they would mak ~ 4 bill profit from you cargo despite concord killing their 10 BS's.

most smaller Industrial ships are paper thin so are likely to be ganked for much smaller sums.

Best option is to place the risk with someone else. set up a courier contract to move the stuff from your hub to Jita or vice versa depending on how your trading. In cross region trading you should be making enough profit to cover courier cost without think atlease until you cana get into a frieghter. Or a more stealth advanced industrial. This way if they are ganked you keep their collateral and you lose nothing.
Aky Elrond
Guardian Angels of Alfheim
#17 - 2012-12-20 18:34:45 UTC
"Or a more stealth advanced industrial"..... details please. I thought only cov-ops can jump/warp while cloaked, any other ship can only "stay" cloaked. Where am I wrong? Or are you referring to jump-freighters (do not know how they work exactly). As for now, my hauling capabilities are low (hoarder with 5100 cubic meters of freight) and training for a freighter will have to wait, since more important trading related or helping skills need to be trained. ATM I am only moving stuff in the range of millions around, so no big harm should I loose my hoarder and its freight. but later on I was thinking of mining/buying, refining, hauling and reselling. You suggest to skip the hauling, understood. What about refining and selling? is it a good secondary activity for a trader? theoretically i should get more for refined minerals, no matter if self mined or bought cheap in bulk.
Aky Elrond
Guardian Angels of Alfheim
#18 - 2012-12-31 12:33:51 UTC
time for some updates and one more question Big smile

- Accounting lvl 5 (sales tax down to 0,75%)
- Broker relations now training to 5 (to drive it down to a base of 0,75)
- broker tax with brutor down to 0,64% (semi afk lvl 2 distribution mission running - working on that to further lower fee)
- faction standings gain trough special missions after every 16 distro missions is low... considering spending some money on angel tags.

Now my problem is I cannot seem to find the agents for data center missions trough the agent finder. I am trying to find one of the agents from this site: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Data_Centers. Do I need to get to the solar system and scan them down? Or how does it work?
Ronix Aideron
Zymurgy Corp.
#19 - 2012-12-31 13:14:23 UTC
You can also use the agent finder within the stations.

Start the day off slow and taper off from there.

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Ronix_Aideron
Aky Elrond
Guardian Angels of Alfheim
#20 - 2012-12-31 13:45:31 UTC
Ronix Aideron wrote:
You can also use the agent finder within the stations.


does not find them. I select one of the 3 solar systems they are supposed to be in (Emolgranlan, Arlulf, Engosi), I find different agents in those systems, but none of the agents that need angel tags (the ones mentioned in the link posted in the previous post).
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