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Dev Blog: Introducing The Free Developer License & CREST API Beta Test

First post First post
Author
Creca
O.Z. Prizon
#21 - 2012-12-20 17:21:11 UTC
Small typo in the devblog:

Quote:
Protecting players and our game universe. Applications that we didn't write that connect to our game can potentially damage both individual players and our game universe as a whole. We need to be able to both close down access for whole applications if they threaten the game, and reach a person behind each appliation.
hfo df
Ramm's RDI
Tactical Narcotics Team
#22 - 2012-12-20 17:23:59 UTC
Awesome! Cant wait to get started!
CCP Seagull
C C P
C C P Alliance
#23 - 2012-12-20 17:41:40 UTC
Thelonious Blake wrote:
Could you please explain what do you mean by

Quote:
certain API endpoints


There are no practical plans for any of this - but there could be cases where if you want to query endpoints that cost us lots of bandwidth to deliver a lot, we'd ask you to pay for that. But we have no such end points today, and no such setup planned. I just wanted to flag that there is no guarantee that all access will be free for ever - just trying to manage expectations, in case we run into something that is too expensive for us to deliver for free, but that we could keep if developers were willing to pay.

/Seagull

Senior Producer, EVE Online Development CCP Games Reykjavik

CCP Alice
C C P
C C P Alliance
#24 - 2012-12-20 17:42:42 UTC
This makes me very happy! We're all very excited to see this becoming a reality :)

Alx Warlord wrote:
This also means that there will be a developers community page where all player could go and harvest their programs???

This sounds good! No more Internet Scavenging...


Yes, at some point in the future we're hoping to have an Applications directory that would also include the Fansites and other player generated resources. It would most likely be on the EVE Community website, since the Developers one will be more tailored towards the people who are developing the actual applications, fansites, and all the other shinys.

"There is no knowledge without unity"

CCP Seagull
C C P
C C P Alliance
#25 - 2012-12-20 17:45:20 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Quick question:

Will this be used to cover access to the SDE? And if so, what would be the status of people who distribute converted copies there of, in other formats? (such as mysql, sqlite, and so on)


SDE, access to the current API, and all other dev resources will be freely available, and not require the Dev License. Only CREST usage and Single Sign On usage will require the license.

Senior Producer, EVE Online Development CCP Games Reykjavik

CCP Seagull
C C P
C C P Alliance
#26 - 2012-12-20 17:50:34 UTC
Sentient Blade wrote:
Developer grants CCP a limited, non-exclusive, worldwide, nontransferrable right during the Term (i) to use the Application and view any publicly available materials associated therewith (e.g., documentation), and (ii) ***upon written
request of CCP delivered to Developer, to inspect the workings of the Application, including but not limited to its source code***


I have developed for numerous third party products in the past and I have *never* been required to sign an agreeement which allows a third party access to my source code, especially in such a way that is worded to be deliberatly open ended. There is no mention of disclosure agreements, retention, filtering or limitation of access.

This is not something I could in good faith suggest any developer accept, especially if they're dealing with things such as online services and centralised databases.

Also, does this prevent charging monthly fees for things such as CREST-integrated KBs running tasks such as as auto-reimbursement?


I will bring the source code concern to our legal counsel, to get a clarification of what the intention is here.

As the license currently stands, this would prevent you from charging for such a kill-board - but we are very interested in you sending exactly such cases to [email protected], so that we can look at how the license could evolve to support cases that are good for the community, and not a problem for us legally. Having concrete examples helps us a lot in this.

Senior Producer, EVE Online Development CCP Games Reykjavik

Arydanika
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2012-12-20 18:02:20 UTC
I'm so excited to hear about CREST Beta. Fan apps like Aura are going to have a field day with this and I can't wait to see what they come up with.

Big ups to CCP to taking them to really sit down, look over the 3rd party developer license and bring out something which is a true boon to the community. I don't just mean from a free aspect though that is part of it. The risk involved with a move like this is tremendous and I'm so happy to see CCP Games is sticking with their tag of being Fearless in a way that is positive for the game and the community.

Happy coding to all!

Runner of Voices from the Void podcast, Eve Online Pod Pack & DJ on eve-radio.com Sundays at 1800.  Organizer of the ATX Eve Online Meet. ♥

Akrasjel Lanate
Lanate Industries
#28 - 2012-12-20 18:06:44 UTC
Nice

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Peter Powers
Terrorists of Dimensions
#29 - 2012-12-20 18:14:53 UTC
Zagdul wrote:
Peter Powers wrote:
can you please clarify:
charging (ingame) ISK for applications is not allowed, only donations?

They did, twice... 3 times if you read the PDF as well.

they did not, 4.1 is the only mention of payment, and basically it doesn't specify in-game itself, actually it might imply it,
but its not clear, i'm not an US-Law professional.
hence i'm asking.


3rdPartyEve.net - your catalogue for 3rd party applications

Bai Guang
Root.
#30 - 2012-12-20 18:23:20 UTC
Peter Powers wrote:
Zagdul wrote:
Peter Powers wrote:
can you please clarify:
charging (ingame) ISK for applications is not allowed, only donations?

They did, twice... 3 times if you read the PDF as well.

they did not, 4.1 is the only mention of payment, and basically it doesn't specify in-game itself, actually it might imply it,
but its not clear, i'm not an US-Law professional. See below:
hence i'm asking.




it seems as if that is the case, currently you are not allowed to charge ISK for products, only donations, but they asked us to send queries to see if maybe that could be amended.

CCP Seagull wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:
...

Also, does this prevent charging monthly fees for things such as CREST-integrated KBs running tasks such as as auto-reimbursement?


I will bring the source code concern to our legal counsel, to get a clarification of what the intention is here.

As the license currently stands, this would prevent you from charging for such a kill-board - but we are very interested in you sending exactly such cases to [email protected], so that we can look at how the license could evolve to support cases that are good for the community, and not a problem for us legally. Having concrete examples helps us a lot in this.
Peter Powers
Terrorists of Dimensions
#31 - 2012-12-20 18:34:05 UTC
Bai Guang wrote:

it seems as if that is the case, currently you are not allowed to charge ISK for products, only donations, but they asked us to send queries to see if maybe that could be amended.

ok, before i get into rage about a simple request for clarification that i made and how people white knight in about it, i'll just stop it here.
The License does not mention ingame payments in any way, nor does it imply such intent. The Blog is unclear in the wording about it, and could imply it is not allowed. the part you quoted sais "charging" and avoids to differenciate between a real charge, and the transfer of ingame currency which legally and technically is owned by ccp anyways.

Now i'm dealing here with a license that is put under the law of a country which is known for its interpretable law, and cofusing law system.

So please forgive me when i'm trying to find out in very clear and reliable words whats meant.

3rdPartyEve.net - your catalogue for 3rd party applications

Amallya Trueshot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2012-12-20 18:38:19 UTC
Looking forward to this!!!! It will be awesome!
Bai Guang
Root.
#33 - 2012-12-20 18:39:09 UTC
Peter Powers wrote:
Bai Guang wrote:

it seems as if that is the case, currently you are not allowed to charge ISK for products, only donations, but they asked us to send queries to see if maybe that could be amended.

ok, before i get into rage about a simple request for clarification that i made and how people white knight in about it, i'll just stop it here.
The License does not mention ingame payments in any way, nor does it imply such intent. The Blog is unclear in the wording about it, and could imply it is not allowed. the part you quoted sais "charging" and avoids to differenciate between a real charge, and the transfer of ingame currency which legally and technically is owned by ccp anyways.

Now i'm dealing here with a license that is put under the law of a country which is known for its interpretable law, and cofusing law system.

So please forgive me when i'm trying to find out in very clear and reliable words whats meant.


Oh i wasnt trying to give you a hard time about anything, I was just relating what the dev said on the matter of charging ISK, vice donations. I skimmed the licence agreement, but thats about it.
Ambo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-12-20 18:59:21 UTC
Good to see some movement on this, I have a couple of questions:

I'm currently working on an app that I intended to offer for a small fee. (I started on this after the previous talk was of an agreement that would allow us to charge rl cash for our apps)

1) if I create a non-crest API app then I don't need to sign the agreement and can still charge rl cash for it?
2) if I create a crest API app and sign up to the agreement then can I charge an isk fee for it (as opposed to rl money)?

Thanks.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
#35 - 2012-12-20 19:02:12 UTC
CCP Seagull wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:
Developer grants CCP a limited, non-exclusive, worldwide, nontransferrable right during the Term (i) to use the Application and view any publicly available materials associated therewith (e.g., documentation), and (ii) ***upon written
request of CCP delivered to Developer, to inspect the workings of the Application, including but not limited to its source code***


I have developed for numerous third party products in the past and I have *never* been required to sign an agreeement which allows a third party access to my source code, especially in such a way that is worded to be deliberatly open ended. There is no mention of disclosure agreements, retention, filtering or limitation of access.

This is not something I could in good faith suggest any developer accept, especially if they're dealing with things such as online services and centralised databases.

Also, does this prevent charging monthly fees for things such as CREST-integrated KBs running tasks such as as auto-reimbursement?


I will bring the source code concern to our legal counsel, to get a clarification of what the intention is here.

As the license currently stands, this would prevent you from charging for such a kill-board - but we are very interested in you sending exactly such cases to [email protected], so that we can look at how the license could evolve to support cases that are good for the community, and not a problem for us legally. Having concrete examples helps us a lot in this.


The access to the source code is a show stopper. Unless CCP is willing to sign a NDA and licensing agreement with me.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-12-20 19:07:57 UTC
my PDF reader is broken so I have to go by the summary... Ugh

Quote:
You can take ISK donations and Real Money donations to cover your costs, but you can't charge outright for usage, access or download of your application.


Does this imply that charging ISK for usage is not allowed by the new license? If yes, what's the rationale?

(so far CCP has tolerated charging for tools that use the EVE API as long as the payment is in ISK - e.g. EMMA, eve-commander, Covert Kitty' Trade Analysis tool, ... all used that model.)

.

HARD STEEL
Caldari Capital Construction Company
#37 - 2012-12-20 19:22:01 UTC

  • You can take ISK donations and Real Money donations to cover your costs, but you can't charge outright for usage, access or download of your application.
  • You can show ads in your application, but they can't be ads for stuff that's EULA-breaking, like RMT ads. We also reserve the right to ban other types of ads at our discretion - but this is a right we need to retain to protect our business, not intended to be an arbitrary or draconian ad policy. We just need the ability to deal with this on a case-by-case basis.


Why out-right ban this?

Until these rules change - I don't see anyone other than an student, coding enthusiasts, and starving artists/people with no business sense building apps for EVE with CREST. As anyone who has the skill and grit to build something valuable needs to invest a lot of time and energy into building and upkeeping a 3rd party app. Someone in that position will probably have a family/mortgage to worry about - so therefor wont invest in your ecosystem.

So why can't we profit from our efforts?


ONLY THE HARD.  ONLY THE STRONG.

iskflakes
#38 - 2012-12-20 19:27:06 UTC
The source code disclose is a show stopper.

-

Bai Guang
Root.
#39 - 2012-12-20 19:29:35 UTC
Bai Guang wrote:


Oh i wasnt trying to give you a hard time about anything, I was just relating what the dev said on the matter of charging ISK, vice donations. I skimmed the licence agreement, but thats about it.



After going back an re-reading the post/licence agreement, I can see how it could be confusing. I was just assuming the monthly fee for the KB was in ISK, but it does not clearly state that fact. So the ISK for usage thing is still grey, although I likely suspect that as it is currently written, we will not be allowed to charge ISK for our services developed w/ the CREST API.

With regard to the souce code, if I release something that is opensourced I dont think would be a problem, however if I intend to keep it closed source, then there might be an issue there.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#40 - 2012-12-20 19:44:46 UTC
HARD STEEL wrote:

  • You can take ISK donations and Real Money donations to cover your costs, but you can't charge outright for usage, access or download of your application.
  • You can show ads in your application, but they can't be ads for stuff that's EULA-breaking, like RMT ads. We also reserve the right to ban other types of ads at our discretion - but this is a right we need to retain to protect our business, not intended to be an arbitrary or draconian ad policy. We just need the ability to deal with this on a case-by-case basis.


Why out-right ban this?

Until these rules change - I don't see anyone other than an student, coding enthusiasts, and starving artists/people with no business sense building apps for EVE with CREST. As anyone who has the skill and grit to build something valuable needs to invest a lot of time and energy into building and upkeeping a 3rd party app. Someone in that position will probably have a family/mortgage to worry about - so therefor wont invest in your ecosystem.

So why can't we profit from our efforts?





Because if you want money, this isn't the license to use. Talk to [email protected]

And I love how you're denigrating applications like Evemon as not valuable.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter