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my email to CCP about trade margin exploits.
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Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-12-20 15:22:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Darenthul wrote:
Jealousy Asques wrote:
A partial solution to the problem that doesn't affect legitimate margin trades... Just make it so that we can at least check the buyers current capability to complete the order. Even if they can drain their accounts before I get there, at least they couldnt do it while offline. A way to rate sellers&buyers like ebay would be another nice option.


I'd have no issues with this really.

I've always thought that buy/sell orders should be labeled or such anyway, I'd like to sell things from my corporation and have them known by name. Just let people pick anonymous or not when posting it.

I shouldn't be required to divulge who I am before you buy from me. If they wanted to put in an option to allow your name to appear on the market, beside your order, that would be fine. It shouldn't be required though.

If CCP doesn't want you to do this, they should just make the order default to the next buy order and have you confirm the transaction so that you know the one you tried to sell to doesn't have the isk to cover.

Players should be able to set up margin scams. However, you should be able to protect yourself as long as you're paying attention.

Edit: I wonder if it's even possible for them to do that. Could that be problematic for the server in some way? I feel like maybe it would.
Kehro Urgus
Dark Nebula Academy
O X I D E
#22 - 2012-12-20 15:29:22 UTC
Beckie DeLey wrote:
TR4D3R4LT wrote:
Hello good Sir/Madam,

I'm wealthy Nigerian prince who wants to buy VW Beetle from year 1967 for bazillion euros/dollars. Unfortunately my country very poor and cannot afford VW dealer. Will you kindly buy one for me from your local dealer for cheap price of one million euros/dollars. I promise to buy it from you as soon as banks open in my country. Please enclose details where payment due.

Thank you kindly.


Hahaha, nobody could be stupid enough to fall for that!


EDIT: Oh wait.


That's nothing. I got a letter in the mail that some rich relatives of mine died recently in a car crash in France. The postmark was from Paris so it had to be true. Roll

Yeeee! 
Jealousy Asques
The Seventh Circle
#23 - 2012-12-20 15:29:37 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
So there's alot of pricks that want to put in their useless $.02. Fine. My solution to make it so people can see if the buy order is currently capable of being filled harms nobody but the scammers. The only reason that some of these scams are "glaringly obvious" is because the scammers make it obvious. If they were smarter and didn't try for quite so much, they'd get alot further, and I'm sure some of them do. Also, if you'd notice, I said that I did not fall for this. I almost did. The real issue here is that it hurts the trading market for high end items. You can't make a living trading them. You can sell what you come by thru pve etc, but you can't play the market with them.

Please keep it civil, thank you. -ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Darenthul
Anstard Armory Inc.
#24 - 2012-12-20 15:30:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Darenthul
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Darenthul wrote:
Jealousy Asques wrote:
A partial solution to the problem that doesn't affect legitimate margin trades... Just make it so that we can at least check the buyers current capability to complete the order. Even if they can drain their accounts before I get there, at least they couldnt do it while offline. A way to rate sellers&buyers like ebay would be another nice option.


I'd have no issues with this really.

I've always thought that buy/sell orders should be labeled or such anyway, I'd like to sell things from my corporation and have them known by name. Just let people pick anonymous or not when posting it.

I shouldn't be required to divulge who I am before you buy from me. If they wanted to put in an option to allow your name to appear on the market, beside your order, that would be fine. It shouldn't be required though.

If CCP doesn't want you to do this, they should just make the order default to the next buy order and have you confirm the transaction so that you know the one you tried to sell to doesn't have the isk to cover.

Players should be able to set up margin scams. However, you should be able to protect yourself as long as you're paying attention.

Edit: I wonder if it's even possible for them to do that. Could that be problematic for the server in some way? I feel like maybe it would.


Oh of course not, I understand anonymous trading is a massive part of it. I think that effectively posting under a name is a risky endeavor. If people see you flooding the market or such under a single name, it changes how they choose to purchase products.

However even in EVE where there isn't a feasible difference, you can create a proper brand identity and it could improve sales or drop them. Its a risk thing.

Its why I think it should be optional (defaulting to anonymous) where players who sell anon effectively sell through a market entity and others to sell publicly.

But I digress, on the topic of the current discussion I can't really say too much, while I get the gist of the scam, it still seems like more of an exploit of game mechanics than an exploit of stupidity. Is it without a doubt always possible to recognize one of these margin scams? Or is it possible to do it completely invisibly for smaller returns?

"I find mining to be an incredibly relaxing thing to do after work. It's like fishing without waking up early. Or cold. But the beer, the beer is the same." - arramdaywalker
Taria Katelo
Doomheim
#25 - 2012-12-20 15:35:30 UTC
just check the price history it always tells you everything you need to know and you can avoid every margin trade scam with it. if you don't use it then its your own fault for being too greedy. The only people that get scammed are the geedy ones.
Jealousy Asques
The Seventh Circle
#26 - 2012-12-20 15:35:33 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:


Players should be able to set up margin scams. However, you should be able to protect yourself as long as you're paying attention.

Edit: I wonder if it's even possible for them to do that. Could that be problematic for the server in some way? I feel like maybe it would.


Yes, trying to scam is one thing, but you should be able to research it and protect yourself. Don't tell me to check history. Some rarer items have very little history if any at all, and relyin on this takes those items out of the trading game. If current capability to complete the order was displayed, at least they couldn't pull this one while offline.
Jealousy Asques
The Seventh Circle
#27 - 2012-12-20 15:37:21 UTC
Darenthul wrote:


But I digress, on the topic of the current discussion I can't really say too much, while I get the gist of the scam, it still seems like more of an exploit of game mechanics than an exploit of stupidity. Is it without a doubt always possible to recognize one of these margin scams? Or is it possible to do it completely invisibly for smaller returns?


It is very possible to do this invisibly for smaller returns.
Kehro Urgus
Dark Nebula Academy
O X I D E
#28 - 2012-12-20 15:40:56 UTC
Bounty payouts are secured... just sayin'. Twisted

Yeeee! 
RomeStar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-12-20 15:43:17 UTC
You see alot of posts on this thread dogging the OP and saying leave it alone . Those posters are more than likey the ones who implement the scams. If not then why do you care if this is fixed or not? The only truely good aspect of the margin scam is the post on the forums from players who have fell for it. That would be the only reason to keep it in game but im sure we can find something else to laugh at them about instead.

Signatured removed, CCP Phantom
TR4D3R4LT
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2012-12-20 15:43:31 UTC
Jealousy Asques wrote:
... My solution to make it so people can see if the buy order is currently capable of being filled harms nobody but the scammers...


Actually, the "scam" part of the whole deal is selling overpriced stuff to people. Unless your suggestion somehow prevents either people listing rifters for 5 billion isk or prevents people buying items once their value has gone x% over eve average, it doesn't prevent the scam.

It's akin to selling "navy ravens" via direct station trade to "avoid paying npc taxes." Or buying 1 unit of trit for price of plex via contracts. Heck in the end of the day, gullible people will be scammed by promise of trading isk for locked jetcan password that will contain "duped t2 bpo that has to be cept shh shh from CCP and is therefore in passworded jetcan."

You cant prevent stupidity, if you want to work against margin trading scam, ask for huge highlight window on buy that pops up and requires CAPCHA installed that spells out "YOU DUMB FCK!" if item is over 5000% over regional average. Even that wont prevent people from falling to it.
Rengerel en Distel
#31 - 2012-12-20 15:52:36 UTC
I think the trade lag scam is much more of an exploit, as it counts on faulty game mechanics to work. If either party makes a change after clicking accept, it should fail and they have to start over.

The margin trading scam might be idiotic, but people are able to research the item to know if it's overpriced. If you're looking for pimped out mods, you should be able to spend a bit of time doing the research.

I'm sorry if you think anyone that disagrees with you is trolling, but once you post, the rest of the tread is pretty much out of your hands.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#32 - 2012-12-20 16:10:37 UTC
RomeStar wrote:
Those posters are more than likey the ones who implement the scams.



You don't have a clue how to justify that statement, do you.

OP: The margin trading scam has a simple, foolproof preventative measure: don't invest in items without research. If you find there is not enough data to make an informed decision on whether to invest, and if there is no market failure contingency plan, it's simple: 1. Do not invest; 2. Do not demand the situation be changed so that you can invest. Effectively, you are complaining because you can't get the same security in every market all the time. Go down to MD and post this, they'll troll you for being inexperienced.

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.
No More Heroes
Boomer Humor
Snuffed Out
#33 - 2012-12-20 16:32:52 UTC
Kehro Urgus wrote:
Seriously, those margin scams stick out like a sore thumb. If you fall for it, trading isn't what you should be doing. Roll


If it looks to good to be true- it is.

Margin trading and the unfulfillable buy order scam entirely belongs in this game about the cold harsh universe. Asking to be protected from mistakes and scams is asking for a themepark.

.
Djana Libra
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-12-20 17:05:53 UTC
again... its not an exploit, its a valid game mechanic, been said so dozens of times when ppl falling for a margin trade scam open a topic. you made an oopsie, deal with it go on like everyone else.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2012-12-20 17:38:40 UTC
Margin trading scams are so easy to spot ...
... am i missing something here ?
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#36 - 2012-12-20 17:44:38 UTC
Not having enough money to fulfil a market order is not a scam. How can NOT buying something be a scam? You still have your item, and the buyers trade order is cancelled.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)
Sarmea Moon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2012-12-20 18:36:36 UTC
RomeStar wrote:
You see alot of posts on this thread dogging the OP and saying leave it alone . Those posters are more than likey the ones who implement the scams. If not then why do you care if this is fixed or not? The only truely good aspect of the margin scam is the post on the forums from players who have fell for it. That would be the only reason to keep it in game but im sure we can find something else to laugh at them about instead.



You know nothing about trading or manufacturing.

Just In Time manufacturing requires you to have a ton of buy orders up for minerals in several markets. Not all are going to get filled, but just enough to keep manufacturing. Before everything gets filled, you have new ships/mods whatever coming out of the oven and selling to make the cash to buy more mins/subcombines with.

When an order fails because you don't have isk, you get hit with a penalty.

This completely excluding this thing EvE likes to call "market pvp" which means I can put up several buy orders, all with the same character, and make a particular market look very busy. This keeps random casual people out of that market, as they think they're going to have to play the .01 isk game in order to sell their stuff.

The only answer the OP is looking for is more "Hear Hear"s and a dev coming in with a personal apology and a promise to change a fundamental function of the game.

The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse [lady of commercial virtue]. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.- James Nicoll
Sarmea Moon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2012-12-20 18:40:18 UTC
Darenthul wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Darenthul wrote:
Jealousy Asques wrote:
A partial solution to the problem that doesn't affect legitimate margin trades... Just make it so that we can at least check the buyers current capability to complete the order. Even if they can drain their accounts before I get there, at least they couldnt do it while offline. A way to rate sellers&buyers like ebay would be another nice option.


I'd have no issues with this really.

I've always thought that buy/sell orders should be labeled or such anyway, I'd like to sell things from my corporation and have them known by name. Just let people pick anonymous or not when posting it.

I shouldn't be required to divulge who I am before you buy from me. If they wanted to put in an option to allow your name to appear on the market, beside your order, that would be fine. It shouldn't be required though.

If CCP doesn't want you to do this, they should just make the order default to the next buy order and have you confirm the transaction so that you know the one you tried to sell to doesn't have the isk to cover.

Players should be able to set up margin scams. However, you should be able to protect yourself as long as you're paying attention.

Edit: I wonder if it's even possible for them to do that. Could that be problematic for the server in some way? I feel like maybe it would.


Oh of course not, I understand anonymous trading is a massive part of it. I think that effectively posting under a name is a risky endeavor. If people see you flooding the market or such under a single name, it changes how they choose to purchase products.

However even in EVE where there isn't a feasible difference, you can create a proper brand identity and it could improve sales or drop them. Its a risk thing.

Its why I think it should be optional (defaulting to anonymous) where players who sell anon effectively sell through a market entity and others to sell publicly.

But I digress, on the topic of the current discussion I can't really say too much, while I get the gist of the scam, it still seems like more of an exploit of game mechanics than an exploit of stupidity. Is it without a doubt always possible to recognize one of these margin scams? Or is it possible to do it completely invisibly for smaller returns?



We already have this in place. We call it "Contracts". You even have the option of "ignoring" people who you think are scammers and never see another contract from them. People buy plenty of things by "brand identity" on contracts. ESPECIALLY if it requires a low sec pickup or delivery.

The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse [lady of commercial virtue]. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.- James Nicoll
RomeStar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#39 - 2012-12-20 18:45:39 UTC
Sarmea Moon wrote:
You know nothing about trading or manufacturing.



Well excuse me misses fancy pants. Yeah your right I dont know anything about large scalle lemming indy corps. Hows that ore buy back program working for you anyways?

Signatured removed, CCP Phantom
Sarmea Moon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2012-12-20 18:49:54 UTC
RomeStar wrote:
Sarmea Moon wrote:
You know nothing about trading or manufacturing.



Well excuse me misses fancy pants. Yeah your right I dont know anything about large scalle lemming indy corps. Hows that ore buy back program working for you anyways?



What ore buy back program? We don't have one. I, however, have standing buy orders up for everyone in 3 regions to sell to me.

If you are referring to my current alliance when you say "lemming indy corp" I suggest you look at my corp history. Oh that's right, you haven't been around nearly long enough to know what they mean and have no idea what you are talking about- as your post "this can only be used for scamming and has no legit purpose" has already shown:P

The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse [lady of commercial virtue]. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.- James Nicoll