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What ever happened to Tesselation?

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Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-12-20 02:15:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief
Mara Rinn wrote:
Word of advice: Don't cheap out on the video card when building a gaming computer: I'd be looking at a GTX 670, which will cost me about $500 in Australia (perish the thought of a GTX680). Then you build the system around the video card: motherboard and case which will fit the card, memory and processor to fit the motherboard.


670 is nice, but I'm quite happy with my 7950 for half that much! You'll get 98 FPS, I'll get 93 FPS on the same benchmark. But I saved nearly $250. My motherboard is actually a little old. More than a little. But you don't really need a cutting edge one. Again, my old one runs fine, manages BF3 maxed out and smooth as butter. Processor cost around $220 when I got it, and it's still good. So, video card and CPU cost me slightly less than your video card alone. See what I mean by not throwing money away? You can pay $100 for a banana. Doesn't make the banana any better than $0.30/lb ones.

Quote:
I have visited friends trying to convince me to buy a Windows 7 gaming computer. Between all the cables (OMG the cables: I've been using iMacs for 7 years, cables are just not something I want to deal with) and the endless cycle of upgrading Windows, then upgrading video drivers, then waiting for the virus scanner to let you use the computer, we spent an hour waiting for the computer to be ready for us to play a game. He convinced me alright, and that was before Windows restarted the computer in the middle of a game in order to install a "critical update". WTF?


Really? Jeez, you need a computer-savvy friend to show you the ropes. You really do. And Windows 7 actually has one of the easy installs. If I remember right, WinXP and Win2k were significantly wonkier. And WinVista? Ugh!

Quote:
No, I don't have time to futz around fixing things which shouldn't be broken. No, I don't enjoy spending my time watching the sales and computer fairs and special offers just to build a computer for $800 over six months rather than just buying it off the shelf for $2000. That is time better spent shopping for a new investment property or gardening.


Well, yeah, I suppose. Trouble is, most of those "gaming PC" packages are actually a little on the weak side. They look impressive and all, but often end up being slapped together from basically "spare parts", whatever they can get cheaper, even if it is suboptimal.

I mean, I just glanced at the "best selling" one on the local store's website. Two $140 cards in crossfire, $100 CPU, $80 MB, body, 8 Gigs of RAM (peanuts at current prices), the case, the DVD player and the keyboard/mouse (cheapie $19 ones). Total? $1600. There's no more than $800 of stuff in there. You can literally buy the same items from that same store, and pay $800 or so. Less if you catch it on sale.
Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#42 - 2012-12-20 02:19:43 UTC
CCP Mankiller wrote:
Tessellation REQUIRES DX11!

So first we have to roll out a dx11 client...

Working on it... but we need more dx11-capable customers... and that would be you...


Can we see the client wide computer specs survey ?
Like the one done by steam?

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Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#43 - 2012-12-20 02:20:10 UTC
CCP Mankiller wrote:
Moonaura wrote:
So basically CCP, you trolled us. Shocked

Many games are coming out non XP in the next year. Really, this is the last year of XP. And no, you can't point at a concrete block and say, that is why, and say its pointless, when your own freaking demo at fanfest showed exactly why it wasn't pointless.

Remember the crowd cheering for it? Remember people saying they wanted it?

Right now the capitals look awful. I'm sure they might get improved at some point, but at this size, detail makes things look bigger than they actually are. Making stuff just larger with bad textures doesn't make them really feel all that big frankly. They are just filling more screen real estate.



I agree: the capitals DO look awful. Trust me, the V3-project will make them look a lot better... (release: around summer 2013)

But: dx11 doesn't make something "just look better", you have to use dx11 features! And that takes dev time...


Thanks for being cool enough to reply Mankiller. I figured that the capitals would get the V3 treatment at some point. I'd like to see a big polygon increase as well as just textures, and maybe them being redesigned with this in mind.

And one day, maybe the Typhoon won't look like a garbage collection lorry. Dreams are made of this :)

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-12-20 02:34:05 UTC
CCP Mankiller wrote:
Moonaura wrote:
So basically CCP, you trolled us. Shocked

Many games are coming out non XP in the next year. Really, this is the last year of XP. And no, you can't point at a concrete block and say, that is why, and say its pointless, when your own freaking demo at fanfest showed exactly why it wasn't pointless.

Remember the crowd cheering for it? Remember people saying they wanted it?

Right now the capitals look awful. I'm sure they might get improved at some point, but at this size, detail makes things look bigger than they actually are. Making stuff just larger with bad textures doesn't make them really feel all that big frankly. They are just filling more screen real estate.



I agree: the capitals DO look awful. Trust me, the V3-project will make them look a lot better... (release: around summer 2013)

But: dx11 doesn't make something "just look better", you have to use dx11 features! And that takes dev time...


I just hope the graphics designer can make the ships a bit more... uhh.... conventional.
We have space penislands with cap and shaft
We have space heads that looks like the helmet from Dead Space
We have a random ship with spikes sticking out all over the place.
We have a brown turd that goes pew pew .

Maybe its also time for some more..... aesthetically sound designs?

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ ＤＡＭＮ ＴＨＩＳ    SIGNATURE    ＩＳ ＦＡＮＣY ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#45 - 2012-12-20 03:07:31 UTC
CCP Mankiller wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I am a graphics programmer, I love everything new. But statistics show that only ~50% of the players run dx11-ready systems. So we don't want to shut them out for this


but then again, similar to those games.
You'll have the option to opt for dx9 instead of dx11
Its not compulsory :P

and DX11 is inevitable

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ ＤＡＭＮ ＴＨＩＳ    SIGNATURE    ＩＳ ＦＡＮＣY ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
#46 - 2012-12-20 03:10:39 UTC
If you make EVE Online a DX11 game, then your customers would upgrade to a DX11 card.

Yes, some would not like it - it may even be a PR disaster...not that the publicity would be a bad thing, because 'all publicity is good publicity'.

Most would say 'well, it makes sense they should chose to move forward with the game graphics...I was going to get a DX11 card anyway at some point...I guess now this brings that date forward'.

If you gave us all 12 months warning this is going to happen, I think that's plenty of time to scrub $200.

Besides, it's not like EVE Online is the only game we have installed, is it?

DX9 was 2004 - get with the times everybody.

It pre-dates pure pwnage...if anyone even remembers that now.

On a related topic, CCP, can we please have an optional download of high-res textures please?

We know you have them...

AK

This space for rent.
Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-12-20 03:18:49 UTC
AlleyKat wrote:
If you make EVE Online a DX11 game, then your customers would upgrade to a DX11 card.

Yes, some would not like it - it may even be a PR disaster...not that the publicity would be a bad thing, because 'all publicity is good publicity'.

Most would say 'well, it makes sense they should chose to move forward with the game graphics...I was going to get a DX11 card anyway at some point...I guess now this brings that date forward'.

If you gave us all 12 months warning this is going to happen, I think that's plenty of time to scrub $200.

Besides, it's not like EVE Online is the only game we have installed, is it?

DX9 was 2004 - get with the times everybody.

It pre-dates pure pwnage...if anyone even remembers that now.

On a related topic, CCP, can we please have an optional download of high-res textures please?

We know you have them...

AK


Reserve one for me plz

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ ＤＡＭＮ ＴＨＩＳ    SIGNATURE    ＩＳ ＦＡＮＣY ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#48 - 2012-12-20 03:46:36 UTC
Everybody get better computers by 2013 please.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2012-12-20 03:53:49 UTC
CCP Mankiller wrote:
WinXP is the problem... It just won't die!


shall i remind thee of eve classic and eve premium... just have two compatible clients for 6 months... ffs
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Ayuren Aakiwa
Shadow Legion X
Seriously Suspicious
#50 - 2012-12-20 04:06:45 UTC
Seems like a waste of time.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#51 - 2012-12-20 05:00:22 UTC
Tesselation is being done at their Atlanta office.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
TharOkha
0asis Group
#52 - 2012-12-20 06:03:22 UTC  |  Edited by: TharOkha
CCP Mankiller wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I am a graphics programmer, I love everything new. But statistics show that only ~50% of the players run dx11-ready systems. So we don't want to shut them out for this


Ugh come ooon What?. Do you remember when Unreal1 was released?. Only few % of computers were capable of running it. Every PC gamer desperatedly upgraded their HW for minium specs at least(oh i remember "mom i realy need those 32MB RAM upgrade" back then ). And those times were when PC hardware was realy expensive. These days PC hardware is cheap. Problem is that devs nowadays thinks totaly differently as before. They are waiting for users to upgrade. And thats the problem because it works vice versa. Players are waiting for games that will needs upgrade. Its stalemate situation. Remember that games and their minimum specs are the stimulus for upgrade, not the word editors or internet browsers. It always were, and it should be again once more.

Do you remember the times when EVE was proclaimed "best game graphic" nearly every year? As long as EVE will NOT be tied with crappy console hardware, it can be best PC/Mac game graphic every year. Believe me, players WILL upgrade.You are the devs, you should show us what current modern hardware is capable of.

Fok statistics.Just release two clients simultaneously (curent and dx11) for the next year and you will see that % of dx11 capable users will skyrocket.


edit:
Quote:
So we don't want to shut them out for this


I dont think that failed crysis2 dx11 implementation is the right thing to compare. What about this dx11 or this

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#53 - 2012-12-20 06:17:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
CCP Mankiller wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I am a graphics programmer, I love everything new. But statistics show that only ~50% of the players run dx11-ready systems. So we don't want to shut them out for this


Oh, I absolutely agree. But 50% is a pretty high number (I honestly expected a lot less). And wouldn't the new DX11 client be DX10 compatible anyway (for the remaining 40% or so). I don't imagine there's a lot of folks out there still running DX9 and WinXP. And if they do...well...maybe they should get with the times.


There's still a crapton of people playing with Win XP. Microsoft had to postpone XP dismissal several times.

With the current:

- trend to port lots of stuff to the WEB (where powerful clients are not required)

- worldwide crysis

- simple fact that XP works well, browsers work on XP, XP drivers are still being released, peripherals are to be changed when upgrading (see old yet perfectly functioning scanners, printers)

- EvE specific fact that EvE clients tend to be "light" and CCP forces "encourages" players to multi-account.

XP is here to stay for a while longer.


Edit: to make things much worse DX 11 is not "just" the factor but also the shaders engine.

IE I have a Windows 7 computer (read: much much modern than XP), with nVidia video card (read: not the worst) yet it won't run anything above the current EvE shader.

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Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#54 - 2012-12-20 07:16:36 UTC
CCP Mankiller wrote:
Tessellation REQUIRES DX11!

So first we have to roll out a dx11 client...

Working on it... but we need more dx11-capable customers... and that would be you...


How can I check if I'm DX11-capable? I think I am, but it'd be nice to be sure. Is there some simple test or check I can perform?
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2012-12-20 07:37:17 UTC
Salpad wrote:
CCP Mankiller wrote:
Tessellation REQUIRES DX11!

So first we have to roll out a dx11 client...

Working on it... but we need more dx11-capable customers... and that would be you...


How can I check if I'm DX11-capable? I think I am, but it'd be nice to be sure. Is there some simple test or check I can perform?

just type the card you have into google/search-engine-123456789

directx is common enough that most of the cards ive bought say right on the specs which versions it is compatible with.
AndromacheDarkstar
Integrated Insterstellar Holdings
#56 - 2012-12-20 07:57:49 UTC
ACE McFACE wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
the idea of collisions taking place between object models instead of bounding bubbles (they're called?) should have some damage implications, I think. as in, bumping is no longer "free" and inconsequential to the pilot performing the bump

Can people please stop suggesting that bumping should do damage, it just makes you look like a victim of James315 and would be terrible in fleets or the undock of popular stations (Jita)


Agreed, its more than stupid to ask for bumping to do damage, imagine the utter chaos of undocking a fleet.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#57 - 2012-12-20 08:01:23 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Dx10 was the first to fully support tesellation and the first dx10 card was mid 2007.


Only DX10.1 (Shader Model 4.1) had support for early tessellation.

Nvidia never bothered to support it until they started supporting DX11.
ATI already had feature supported in their cards before feature was supported by API. We are talking about Radeon 8500 here! Yes, that's one ancient piece of hardware right there!

This ancient tessellation and tessellation supported in DX11 are totally different from each other and aren't compatible.
Drekarg
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#58 - 2012-12-20 08:06:32 UTC
Quite an important feature of DX11 is that you can run Crossfire/SLI setups in EVE windowed mode. You won't need one really expensive card to get the FPS results you want you can use 2 reasonably priced cards.

Those of us that use 2 or more screens and multi GPU systems will really benefit from the upgrade CCP so come on set a date.
Thomas Gore
Blackfyre Enterprise
#59 - 2012-12-20 09:12:45 UTC
Why the hell would anyone upgrade their HW (mine is DX11 of course, I'm a geek) if there are no applications (in this case EVE) running it. Your argument makes no sense. If around 50% of your playerbase is already DX11 capable you should damn well be developing the DX11 client already, because when it's ready that 50% has grown into... 70%? 90%? Who knows.

Also, a lot of game clients offer switching between DX9 and DX11.

Don't be a backwater dev lagging behind. Be the cutting edge. You're a PC only dev (well was before DUST). Be proud of it and lead the way.
Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
#60 - 2012-12-20 09:23:10 UTC
Threads like this make me feel old.

Not only do I think of XP as newish but whenever I read anything about tesselation I can't see what the fuss is about.

Will my trusty Matrox Millenium run DX11 or will I need to change the jumper settings on it first?

Fear God and Thread Nought