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Scanning down an Exit
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MocNoc
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2012-12-04 17:24:09 UTC
Squrriel Insurgent wrote:
So!!! news news news news...... First off i want to thank each and every one of you who tired to help. Second, scanning anything down with 3 probes does NOT work. Third, all you need is a little luck.

12/1 at 4:30 i logged in and started to attempt to scan down my exit. After about 15 mins, i got noting more then 50% tops. While just sitting there and scanning, I looked at local and to my amazement someone was talking. Jutye Badazas was an explore who just happened to come across the entrance in Mesybier. But he was in a pod, he was out exploring and got podded out in the WH. So i quickly responded praying he wasn't already out of the WH, but to my luck he was still there. He forgot to bookmark the exit, so he was as screwed as i was. So i thought to myself atleast i have a friend in here now. Luckly Jutye was in a pod and was willing to SD himself to get out, which he did and lucky for me he bookmarked the entrance. So he came back for me and i was able to warp to the exit and get out. A whole 18 jumps away from where i entered.

So pretty much the best way to get out of a WH without probes, is luck and kindness of the other capsullers.

Again i want to thank everyone for giving me any and all the help they gave. Now i'm back to Reg space and rdy to find another WH, but with more prodes this time.

Jutye, your my personal hero Thanks.



You are indeed lucky. The probability that anyone suggesting that to you before that happened and it actually happening b/c in W-space that's a fairy-tale ending is slim to none. That is one for the record books and a notch on your Explorers belt. The kindness of the other player to actually remember to come back to you is extraordinary. It could have turned out bad which would have to the EvE norm LOL.

Way to go for you.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#42 - 2012-12-04 19:37:25 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
LOL at the bunch of people posting ITT who don't know that you need at least 4 probes to scan anything. It should be the first thing you learn about w-space. I thought people were trying to troll the OP until I realized they are really that clueless Shocked

I carry only exactly 8 core probes on all my scanning ships, but then I never lose any. Once in a while I do lose a deep space probe because I have one far out when lurking for people to come online or into the system, and it's easy to forget about the timer when lurking a long time.

If I should ever lose my flight of sisters core I'd still have my 8 sisters combat probes as emergency backup...


Thing is in eve stuff doesn't always work as intended or as people believe - and I'd never actually tested it for myself. Conventional wisdom was that it was impossible to scan a 1/80th sig with a certain combination of skills and probes that I was using on a noobie alt but I still managed it despite it supposedly not being possible.
Or'ild Dral Utrigas
Junkyard Pickers
#43 - 2012-12-11 20:20:13 UTC
Nitrah wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Nitrah wrote:
Kanta Kansene wrote:
Nitrah wrote:
It is not triangulating. To triangulate, your probes need to return angles, which they don't. They only read off distances. It works the same way that GPS satellites work, and you need four in the sky to get a signal from them too.

Go try and scan with three probes. When you get a successful hit, come back and post that I'm wrong. In over 8 months of scanning wormhole chains I have not once gotten a complete hit where only three scan spheres intersected. To claim it can he done is patently false.


GPS only requires 3 satellite signals to give a fix, unless you don't know your elevation for some reason


Under normal operations, it requires four. You need to correct for your clock bias, and you can't definitively know elevation unless you are in a boat or have other means of getting one of the four variables (latitude, longitude, altitude, exact time).

But this is horribly OT now.


GPS give you TWO dimensional coordinated on a flat map (99% of the time), which requires 3 satellites.
getting a THREE dimensional coordinate required 4 'satellites'.

as a note, GPS also does not use 3 satellites, it uses as many as it can see.


http://www.maptoaster.com/maptoaster-topo-nz/articles/how-gps-works/how-gps-works.html

Projecting to a flat approximation can make you off by 100s of meters, and the calculations are more intensive to do the projections.


3 Sat's are the minimum needed to start receiving Lat/Long coordinates. The more Sat's you see the better the accuracy. Your standard car GPS units will give you accuracy to about 50' because that is all that they need. GPS with differential correction will give you yet more accuracy. Altitude/Elevation are meaningless on the low end devices because the government distorts those values. You would need a GPS unit with Satellite differential or survey grade GPS equipment, which requires subscriptions to services in order to correctly resolve altitude/elevation. See omnistar.com for more information on subscription and accuracy.

But, to stay on topic...unless a fine pilot happens to drop you another probe or two the chances of scanning down the exit are very slim.
Darth Bri
Maniaci Dello Spazio
#44 - 2012-12-11 21:41:19 UTC
Give me the WH ID and I'll try and do some scanning myself tonight.


And also, you could have self destructed, bought a new ship and earned all that ISK back by now, PLUS extra!!


Time is valuable in EVE
Tom Hagen
Twilight Empire
#45 - 2012-12-12 11:19:51 UTC
@Darth Bri and others who fail at reading :-P

Squrriel Insurgent wrote:
So!!! news news news news...... First off i want to thank each and every one of you who tired to help. Second, scanning anything down with 3 probes does NOT work. Third, all you need is a little luck.

12/1 at 4:30 i logged in and started to attempt to scan down my exit. After about 15 mins, i got noting more then 50% tops. While just sitting there and scanning, I looked at local and to my amazement someone was talking. Jutye Badazas was an explore who just happened to come across the entrance in Mesybier. But he was in a pod, he was out exploring and got podded out in the WH. So i quickly responded praying he wasn't already out of the WH, but to my luck he was still there. He forgot to bookmark the exit, so he was as screwed as i was. So i thought to myself atleast i have a friend in here now. Luckly Jutye was in a pod and was willing to SD himself to get out, which he did and lucky for me he bookmarked the entrance. So he came back for me and i was able to warp to the exit and get out. A whole 18 jumps away from where i entered.

So pretty much the best way to get out of a WH without probes, is luck and kindness of the other capsullers.

Again i want to thank everyone for giving me any and all the help they gave. Now i'm back to Reg space and rdy to find another WH, but with more prodes this time.

Jutye, your my personal hero Thanks.


I think we can let this thread die now :-)
Euthanasia Anneto
Embers Children
#46 - 2012-12-13 06:20:04 UTC
Squrriel Insurgent wrote:
Short and simple, I messed up and entered a wormhole with only 3 probes.

I scanned through C5's with 3 probes. It wasn't that easy and a lot time taking, but the job got done and I found my exits.
Hence the theory that you need minimum 3 probes for a 3-dimensional scan.

.EC.. of [TOHA], Industrialists with guns. We're overe there, some where and no where... Contacting go through ingame convo's .EC.. and [TOHA] are recruiting, get in contact with us
George Boothe
Blootered Bastards
#47 - 2012-12-13 06:32:54 UTC
Euthanasia Anneto wrote:
Squrriel Insurgent wrote:
Short and simple, I messed up and entered a wormhole with only 3 probes.

I scanned through C5's with 3 probes. It wasn't that easy and a lot time taking, but the job got done and I found my exits.
Hence the theory that you need minimum 3 probes for a 3-dimensional scan.



And we have a Win.. I mean Liar!
Even if you have all V, rigged scanning frig and full virtue set you cannot scan down a 10sigstr. signature with only 3 probes. If you perfectly position them at 0.25 au on a sig that you already have a bookmark for, you will not get a 100% hit.
Space Wanderer
#48 - 2012-12-17 23:23:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Space Wanderer
A pity I didn't see this thread before, I could have helped you getting out without losing much time.

Anyway, to all the people saying it's not possible to scan with three probes, I suggest you study the probe mechanics a bit better. I am actually a bit surprised to see how many people seem to be overconfident on their knowledge. Euthanasia Anneto is correct.

While it is not possible to scan signatures with only one or two probes, it IS actually possible to scan out a signature with only three probes (assuming you can reach a high enough scan strength). However it is much more time consuming than using 4 probes, and requires a decent knowledge of the scanning mechanism, quite a bit of spatial intuition, some inference ability, and a lot of patience.

But yes, it can be done (or at least it could be done a few months ago, when I last tested it).
Aducat Ragnarson
Blootered Bastards
#49 - 2012-12-17 23:29:20 UTC
Space Wanderer wrote:
A pity I didn't see this thread before, I could have helped you getting out without losing much time.

Anyway, to all the people saying it's not possible to scan with three probes, I suggest you study the probe mechanics a bit better. I am actually a bit surprised to see how many people seem to be overconfident on their knowledge. Euthanasia Anneto is correct.

While it is not possible to scan signatures with only one or two probes, it IS actually possible to scan out a signature with only three probes (assuming you can reach a high enough scan strength). However it is much more time consuming than using 4 probes, and requires a decent knowledge of the scanning mechanism, quite a bit of spatial intuition, some inference ability, and a lot of patience.

But yes, it can be done (or at least it could be done a few months ago, when I last tested it).


In order to get a 3 probe scan you would need to move the probes at .25 au range in a way that the edges of the probe radius ar meeting exactly at the point where the sig is. However, the mechanic does not work in eve, as the probes do not recognize that you have the sig at exactly the edge of the radius, therefore even with full virtue set and all V skills and t2 rigged scanning frig, sisters launcher and sisters probes and previous knowledge of where exactly the site is, it is not possible to get a scan, at least according to our testing.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#50 - 2012-12-18 01:41:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Inkarr Hashur
Everyone talking about GPS mechanics as a basis for arguing game mechanics are kind of silly, because there is no reason for CCP to actually implement really complex calculations such as a realistic GPS system into the EVE probing system. Therefore, it wouldn't surprise me one bit to learn that really great skills can get you a 100% hit with just 3 probes.

Just talk about your own experience in EVE, don't be bringing in RL things.
Space Wanderer
#51 - 2012-12-18 10:14:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Space Wanderer
Aducat Ragnarson wrote:
In order to get a 3 probe scan you would need to move the probes at .25 au range in a way that the edges of the probe radius ar meeting exactly at the point where the sig is.


*sigh*

It's much easier than that. The only condition is that the 3 probes must be co-planar with the target (and, obviously, properly surrounding the target). When the target gets closer to the plane identified by the three probes, the two targets reported by the three probes get closer. When they become closer than about 100km they collapse on a single one. And if the signature strength reported by the three probes is 100% (which implies high skills, good equipment, etc, because you have a reduced signal strength, due to using only three probes most likely placed in a non-optimal configuration), the reported signal will be warpable.

Aducat Ragnarson wrote:
However, the mechanic does not work in eve, as the probes do not recognize that you have the sig at exactly the edge of the radius, therefore even with full virtue set and all V skills and t2 rigged scanning frig, sisters launcher and sisters probes and previous knowledge of where exactly the site is, it is not possible to get a scan, at least according to our testing.


I am sorry to say that your testing is clearly insufficient. The mechanic works since the start of apocrypha, and still works today (just retested it on buck to be sure).
Le Badass
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2012-12-19 09:23:14 UTC
Why don't you fraps yourself scanning down a hole with 3 probes?
I'd love to see it and it would certainly end this, otherwise interesting, thread once and for all.
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