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A call to arms against the True Slavers of New Eden

Author
N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#21 - 2012-12-18 11:04:30 UTC  |  Edited by: N'maro Makari
I would like to echo sentiments expressed previously here and lay out the simple facts. If you're planning to rehabilitate True Slaves, don't.

Nation implants are all derived from Kuvakei's original fusion of Jovian capsule technology with neural implants, and have only gotten more advanced with time. After a certain period, the damage to the brain means that removal with result in either straight out death, or severe mental instability resulting in suicide. Even in early stages, some damage will be irreparable, even with skilled neurosurgery. It is also worth baring in mind that the vast, overwhelming majority of True Slaves are well past the point of no return.

In short, rehabilitation is a futile endeavour at present, as we are still a long way off being able to deal with this medically. True Slaves are designed precisely not to be rehabilitated.

I would stick to stemming the Incursions by foreceful means. But your enthusiasm is heart warming.

**Vherokior **

Ston Momaki
Disciples of Ston
#22 - 2012-12-18 13:44:53 UTC
Dear Mr. Muertas,
While DSTON cannot participate in the "taking up arms" of your vision, we would like to offer our services on the humanitarian end. We currently have a small group of rescued "true slaves" in long term care in our center in Ation. We have prepared that center to be a place where there is ongoing attempts to help true slaves in spite of the difficulty.

While I agree in part of the cautions given by many who have responded to you, I disagree with the harsh pessimism and insistance that nothing can be done. This is typical "kill first, think later" attitude of capsuleers. In spite of common belief, every individual person implanted with Sansha control devices differs from every other. Depending on the particular abductee, what implants were used, the amount of time elapsed, and the task they had while abducted, these differences determine their ductility to both surgical and psychological reform. It is only after a certain time has passed that there is no reversal. In particular and somewhat ironically, those who were more submissive to Sansha are the best candidates to help. They often were allowed to keep measures of free will and creative volition while in the network. Regardless, we provide long term care at our Ation Center for all.

Please do not let the harsh and constant nay-saying, "just kill-em" attitude disuade you from a right course of action. DSTON is committed to the long term seeking of ways to help true slaves recover their personhood. We will help you in any way we can with those you rescue. We can house, treat, and care for those you may rescue. Also, once our Center planetary cmplexes are running at surplus, we will also be able to contribute potentially large amounts of material resources for humanitarian operations. Please keep us in mind.

The Disciples of Ston bid you peace

Luna Mori
AmmuNacionale
#23 - 2012-12-18 19:27:31 UTC
It will take some time to provide the necessary medical infrastructure, but I am willing to attempt to replicate some of DSTON's success at this and help to rehabilitate those rescued. I am also willing to put aside any historical differences and join in fleet to counter Sansha Incursions.

General Secretary, Ani Tribal Assembly

Los Muertas
HDYLTA
#24 - 2012-12-19 00:31:53 UTC
To Mister Momaki and Miss Mori, I thank you for your offer and accept it. I am pleased that there are some who, like me, are willing to try and fail if need be rather then just accept that there can be no result but failure. To clairfy, my initial attempts will be towards those most recently taken and thus have a low base line of indoctrination. I will bring "test subjects" (and yes I know how disgusting it is to look at those that were once people as test subjects) to Mr. Momaki and any others that wish to research further stages of "True Slaves" implants, but in limited number. I do not wish to take large samples of that community until Mr. Momaki or others can show me progress in their efforts.

This is not lack of faith in DSTON mind you but rather a desire not to use people, and yes regardless of the implant level these were once people, as lab rats if their is no hope beyond rescue of those only recently taken.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#25 - 2012-12-19 00:42:30 UTC
Lai Dai Research Biomedical and Cybernetic would like to offer this venture its expertise in the field of neurological reconstruction. Please contact us via LDRSS with your needs and we will endeavour to supply what we are able.
N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#26 - 2012-12-19 01:33:53 UTC  |  Edited by: N'maro Makari
I would like some clarification.

Is this now a medical research venture, or will DSTON be removing the implants from every True Slave you find? Because I assure you the second option comes with a very long and far messier butcher's bill.

Although techincally correct on some points, vis a vis different purposes and different thresholds, Mr Momaki's estimates seem over -optimistic given the current state of medical technology in this area. More solid estimates from DSTON would be welcome, however.

To put it bluntly, without further research, which is the noblest of the options presented thus far, finding people with genuine potential to be rehabilitated is looking for a needle in a haystack.

On top of that, consider the problem presented by having to diagnose each True Slave individually. What assurances can you give that this endeavour wont turn into a bloodbath? How many True Slaves will be taken in at a time?

I find myself in the highly unusual position of agreeing with Ms Vea, you need to put some clarity into your proposals.

Sources:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/True_Slaves#cite_note-plague-1

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/True_Slave

http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=29-11-10

**Vherokior **

Ston Momaki
Disciples of Ston
#27 - 2012-12-19 01:46:19 UTC
Los Muertas wrote:
To Mister Momaki and Miss Mori, I thank you for your offer and accept it. I am pleased that there are some who, like me, are willing to try and fail if need be rather then just accept that there can be no result but failure. To clairfy, my initial attempts will be towards those most recently taken and thus have a low base line of indoctrination. I will bring "test subjects" (and yes I know how disgusting it is to look at those that were once people as test subjects) to Mr. Momaki and any others that wish to research further stages of "True Slaves" implants, but in limited number. I do not wish to take large samples of that community until Mr. Momaki or others can show me progress in their efforts.

This is not lack of faith in DSTON mind you but rather a desire not to use people, and yes regardless of the implant level these were once people, as lab rats if their is no hope beyond rescue of those only recently taken.


You, sir, are wise in your precautions. Indeed, we have not shown great progress as of yet other than providing a place of watchful care. We share the concern of not treating these victims as experimental subjects and as a result are probably overcautious in trying to "repair" the damage done by the Sansha experience. I can recommend Lai Dai Research as another avenue for you. They have helped us in the past in difficult medical cases.

We are committed to patiently care for these in the long term and approach recovery very slowly. Our primary contact for our Ation center is Poteque Pharmaceuticals. They have made the initial evaluations of the group we have in Ation and are not ready nor anxious to take any radical courses. Right now the main focus is to determine if there is cognitive response and an ability to learn even at a rudimentary level.

We will respect your choices and judgements in the matter. We wish you the very best in your efforts.

The Disciples of Ston bid you peace

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#28 - 2012-12-19 01:49:31 UTC
To clarify the position which we are prepared to participate;

We have two neurological reconstruction specialists and four research interns currently conducting studies in fields related to the pathologies often found in True Slaves. We are prepared to offer the expertise of this group in advising medical staff, supplying access to therapeutic implants, and diagnosing pathologies to the Servant Brothers of New Eden.
N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#29 - 2012-12-19 02:02:28 UTC
Ston Momaki wrote:
Los Muertas wrote:
To Mister Momaki and Miss Mori, I thank you for your offer and accept it. I am pleased that there are some who, like me, are willing to try and fail if need be rather then just accept that there can be no result but failure. To clairfy, my initial attempts will be towards those most recently taken and thus have a low base line of indoctrination. I will bring "test subjects" (and yes I know how disgusting it is to look at those that were once people as test subjects) to Mr. Momaki and any others that wish to research further stages of "True Slaves" implants, but in limited number. I do not wish to take large samples of that community until Mr. Momaki or others can show me progress in their efforts.

This is not lack of faith in DSTON mind you but rather a desire not to use people, and yes regardless of the implant level these were once people, as lab rats if their is no hope beyond rescue of those only recently taken.


You, sir, are wise in your precautions. Indeed, we have not shown great progress as of yet other than providing a place of watchful care. We share the concern of not treating these victims as experimental subjects and as a result are probably overcautious in trying to "repair" the damage done by the Sansha experience. I can recommend Lai Dai Research as another avenue for you. They have helped us in the past in difficult medical cases.

We are committed to patiently care for these in the long term and approach recovery very slowly. Our primary contact for our Ation center is Poteque Pharmaceuticals. They have made the initial evaluations of the group we have in Ation and are not ready nor anxious to take any radical courses. Right now the main focus is to determine if there is cognitive response and an ability to learn even at a rudimentary level.

We will respect your choices and judgements in the matter. We wish you the very best in your efforts.


This goes some way to adressing my original concerns. Further details would be welcome.

**Vherokior **

Los Muertas
HDYLTA
#30 - 2012-12-19 02:05:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Los Muertas
N'maro Makari wrote:
I would like some clarification.

Is this now a medical research venture, or will DSTON be removing the implants from every True Slave you find? Because I assure you the second option comes with a very long and far messier butcher's bill.

Although techincally correct on some points, vis a vis different purposes and different thresholds, Mr Momaki's estimates seem over -optimistic given the current state of medical technology in this area. More solid estimates from DSTON would be welcome, however.

To put it bluntly, without further research, which is the noblest of the options presented thus far, finding people with genuine potential to be rehabilitated is looking for a needle in a haystack.

On top of that, consider the problem presented by having to diagnose each True Slave individually. What assurances can you give that this endeavour wont turn into a bloodbath? How many True Slaves will be taken in at a time?

I find myself in the highly unusual position of agreeing with Ms Vea, you need to put some clarity into your proposals.

Sources:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/True_Slaves#cite_note-plague-1

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/True_Slave

http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=29-11-10



All well and good. Let me clarify, this venture, on my part, is reverse incursions of Sansha operations where in I and pilots that wish to join in the endeavor will meet Sanshas incursions head on with a primary goal of rescue and extraction of those being taken during that operation. CONCORD and other paramilitary organizations engaged in the effort can take the glory of smashing Nation forces, our goal is rescue first.

The second effort of this organization is to send ground teams to Incusrion sites, render paramilitary aide in the form of defense, medical and search and rescue operations and moving civilians to safe zones while also actively engaging Nation forces on the ground.

My request for aide is issued in regards to helping those whom have been "collared" but not yet implanted with full implants. Madam Scherezad and Mr Momaki are offering their aide in the treatment of "collared" prisoners and Mr Momaki is willing to do limited research into more advanced cases IF research dictates that it is a worthwhile venture that has a probablitity of success. Madam Scherezad's organization, as I understand it, is willing to offer aide in "mentally repairing" these poor souls.

The final piece in this puzzle that I must solicit is organizations willing to give these souls a chance at a life after recovery. Work Programs with on going emotional and psychological care, a reintegration into society if you please.
Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#31 - 2012-12-19 03:55:03 UTC
Los Muertas wrote:


My request for aide is issued in regards to helping those whom have been "collared" but not yet implanted with full implants. Madam Scherezad and Mr Momaki are offering their aide in the treatment of "collared" prisoners and Mr Momaki is willing to do limited research into more advanced cases IF research dictates that it is a worthwhile venture that has a probablitity of success. Madam Scherezad's organization, as I understand it, is willing to offer aide in "mentally repairing" these poor souls.



Someone that focuses on Nation would be better suited to answer this: how many persons are abducted by Nation and how regularly? Just how many people do you expect to find that have been taken, but not already implanted?

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.

Los Muertas
HDYLTA
#32 - 2012-12-19 04:53:09 UTC
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
Los Muertas wrote:


My request for aide is issued in regards to helping those whom have been "collared" but not yet implanted with full implants. Madam Scherezad and Mr Momaki are offering their aide in the treatment of "collared" prisoners and Mr Momaki is willing to do limited research into more advanced cases IF research dictates that it is a worthwhile venture that has a probablitity of success. Madam Scherezad's organization, as I understand it, is willing to offer aide in "mentally repairing" these poor souls.



Someone that focuses on Nation would be better suited to answer this: how many persons are abducted by Nation and how regularly? Just how many people do you expect to find that have been taken, but not already implanted?



I have spent most of my capsuleer life gaining either wealth, or cultivating Amarrian kills. Numbers are all that counted there, now I have decided to dedicate my life to spending my wealth and saving lives, and the only number I care about is ONE. If I save one, one hundred, one million, it will be a life well used. The crewmen on my ship are all Mir'Mulnir, freemen and women who hold the ideals doing the hard thing, not because of the rewards, but because we have been given the ability to do so.
Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#33 - 2012-12-19 05:21:54 UTC
Los Muertas wrote:

I have spent most of my capsuleer life gaining either wealth, or cultivating Amarrian kills. Numbers are all that counted there, now I have decided to dedicate my life to spending my wealth and saving lives, and the only number I care about is ONE. If I save one, one hundred, one million, it will be a life well used. The crewmen on my ship are all Mir'Mulnir, freemen and women who hold the ideals doing the hard thing, not because of the rewards, but because we have been given the ability to do so.


Before I respond, a few questions. Why Nation and no say Blood Raiders or Angels? All three of them are known slavers and horribly mistreat their slaves. Is there a significant difference between freeing a slave from one group and not the others? Is freeing a person recently abducted by Nation somehow better than freeing a slave of the Blood Raiders? If so, how much better?

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.

Los Muertas
HDYLTA
#34 - 2012-12-19 05:34:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Los Muertas
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
Los Muertas wrote:

I have spent most of my capsuleer life gaining either wealth, or cultivating Amarrian kills. Numbers are all that counted there, now I have decided to dedicate my life to spending my wealth and saving lives, and the only number I care about is ONE. If I save one, one hundred, one million, it will be a life well used. The crewmen on my ship are all Mir'Mulnir, freemen and women who hold the ideals doing the hard thing, not because of the rewards, but because we have been given the ability to do so.


Before I respond, a few questions. Why Nation and no say Blood Raiders or Angels? All three of them are known slavers and horribly mistreat their slaves. Is there a significant difference between freeing a slave from one group and not the others? Is freeing a person recently abducted by Nation somehow better than freeing a slave of the Blood Raiders? If so, how much better?


I want you to think of the worst hell possible for you. For me my deepest fear has always been a coma. Many say that a person in a coma has the ability to tell what is going on around them, that they are locked in a hellish prison that has become their own body. Unable to cry out for help, to let those around you know that you still are, and that the only hope you have is that one day soon your body will expire and this torment will end. That is the slavery of Sansha's Nation, a soul being trapped in a body that is now their prison, unable to cry for help, unable to let the world know that they still are. I have been a slave, the master before the Lord Father was cruel, a Holder that the Amarrians would tell you does not exist any longer, but when I think of that hell that is True Slavery, my first masters wicked and twisted acts seem preferable.

That is why I would target the Nation, to save any that could be saved from a torment worse then the Blood Raiders, Cartel's or the most depraved Amarrian Holder would cringe at.

Given your predilection for snide comments and making every discussion about yourself, I will not be surprised that this will most likely not suffice as a good enough reason, but it is all that I have.
Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#35 - 2012-12-19 05:48:07 UTC
Los Muertas wrote:

That is why I would target the Nation, to save any that could be saved from a torment worse then the Blood Raiders, Cartel's or the most depraved Amarrian Holder would cringe at.

Given your predilection for snide comments and making every discussion about yourself, I will not be surprised that this will most likely not suffice as a good enough reason, but it is all that I have.


If you feel that saving one person from Nation is better than some untold number from other groups, then good luck. Just, prepare yourself for a lot of disappointment.

And it's not so much as a predilection, more of a penchant.

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#36 - 2012-12-19 06:20:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Scherezad
Los Muertas wrote:
I want you to think of the worst hell possible for you. For me my deepest fear has always been a coma. Many say that a person in a coma has the ability to tell what is going on around them, that they are locked in a hellish prison that has become their own body. Unable to cry out for help, to let those around you know that you still are, and that the only hope you have is that one day soon your body will expire and this torment will end.


That is roughly what it is like, sir; yes. It is a deeply uncomfortable experience, and one I will do my best to help relieve and avoid if it is in my power to do so.

I would also like to clarify further - LDRBC is a leading research and development firm in the field of therapeutic neurological and neuro muscular implants. We also have a competent decision networking lab. If we are accepted as associates to your project, we will be devoting not-insignificant shares of our resources to the task of developing durable solutions to the current unknowns.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-12-19 08:59:53 UTC
Los Muertas wrote:
however as a capsuleer organization I plan to actively engage Sansha Incursions and free those whom they have taken.

I am glad that finally you have begun to see clearly. And even more glad that you will join our efforts in fending Nation dogs away.

However, that you focus that much on the slavery part, it is still bothers me. Going to a war means death business. And if you wage a war only because of slavery, either you don't value your (and your friends with subordinates) lives, or you are still under blurry delusion caused by gallentean 'slavery-hating' propaganda. If you continue to fight only because of slavery, Sansha will win in the moment when he will decide to kill all his true slaves and replace them with mechanical servants.

From now on sometimes you will notice that we will be fighting on one side, and I greatly recommend you to revision your reasons to fight. If you won't do this, then your Lord Father's last lesson will remain unheard and his death will be pointless.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Ston Momaki
Disciples of Ston
#38 - 2012-12-19 14:46:11 UTC
N'maro Makari wrote:


This goes some way to adressing my original concerns. Further details would be welcome.


I'm guessing that you are a very knowledgable scientist and that my attempts as a non-scientist to explain what I have been told are rather elementary. But, I'll do my best with what I have. Maybe you can fill in the blanks if any of it makes sense.

1. You may recall the disasters endured by the Aliastra Corporation in Ation and surrounding systems. Sansha incursions resulted in the loss of massive numbers of Aliastra employees through abduction. This part of the story has to do with our long standing relationship with Aliastra and their continued help in aiding our centers in Ealur and Ation. Understandably, they are motivated to address the Sansha situation long term. We have bases in their stations, so there is a natural partnership. Proteque comes in the picture due to their expertise in all things medical.

2. This is the part where my knowledge is limited and elementary. The body of medical technology that hereto has been exclusively devoted to capsuleers has its basis in more rudimentary science. The transneural burning scanner is an extreme version of the simple cortical scanner. The later focusses on neural/electical activity and neural/chemical memory patters while the former burns to the atomic level, thus destroying the brain. The cortex constructor now used in applications of clone brain duplication is derived from medical technology that predates YC105. All this to say that the branch in the technological tree that we capsuleers sit on has a root and trunk large enough for applications that could provide the cure for victims of Sansha abduction.

I'm told that just maybe selective cortical scanning in combination with reconstruction using modified cortext construction technology may be a workable solution. In subjects who have retained enough core personality elements and basic brain function, implant removal in combination with applied and heavily modified technology for cortical reconstruction, might work. I think what I am being told is that technology designed for the capsuleer can be modified to benefit the non-capsuleer.

In the mean time, our organization is willing to take in rescued true slaves and provide care for them, while scientists are working out the details of how to help them. What we won't do is kill these people when there is hope to help them. None of this technology may hold the solution; even so we will be here to care for the victims.

The Disciples of Ston bid you peace

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#39 - 2012-12-19 16:55:09 UTC
Frankly, very few of you seem to know what you are talking about, and I remain unsurprised to see capsuleers engaging in idealism (a good thing!) without a concrete plan of action (bad) or real understanding of the issues involved (very, very bad).

Here's the thing about Nation implants. I don't mind telling you this, because everyone knows it.

They become a necessary part of your mind. They are not modular. You cannot remove them in the same way you would remove, say, a shirt, or a ring. They are not something you wear, they are what you are.

This level of integration is a necessary function of being made a part of a network. In a sense, they give you access to a new and complete level of interaction with the world at least on the level of sight, and possibly on the level of smell and taste in terms of importance to the recipients of these implants.

You cannot remove them more than you could remove the pre-frontal cortex. Its possible, but things will not be the same.

In this case, you are also removing a sense of belonging, and a closeness with your fellows that is difficult to use language to even describe to those without the networked implants. How do you explain the colour red to someone without the use of their eyes, for instance?

Leave your idealism at the door until you have a working knowledge of what you're dealing with.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#40 - 2012-12-19 17:38:28 UTC
And just to make that abundantly clear to anyone who bitches about post length.

These people are only falling into comas, going insane, etc, because you idiots are pulling out necessary functioning parts of their brains. Stop doing that, and there wont be an issue.