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High Sec / Low Sec / Null Sec Truth in Relation.

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Santa Spirit
Christmas Spirit and Goodwill Toward Man
#101 - 2012-12-18 05:12:55 UTC
oh my.. so many posts to read through and I can't figure out the multiple quote thingy (shrug)

Anyway, My main primarily runs in High sec, he mines, builds, missions and buys those really cool mods for his ship when he finds one he likes and can afford...

he would(along with his corp and probably many of his friends) be more than happy to go to a place where the roids are better, the rats are bigger and the missions might actually get half way through his ship before he killed the NPCs... Without a doubt, he and his friends could help the true empire builders realize the enormous amount of isks and resources they have at their fingertips, provide POS's, ship and accessory arrays, ammo, labs, refineries... you name it under the right conditions.

Between the two groups, fortunes could be made, growth could be achieved and honestly a good time could be had by all.

The reason he stays in high sec is simply that PvP, looking over his shoulder every 30 seconds and worrying that he's going to lose most of what he worked for over the past year or so, simply isn't his style of play and holds absolutely no interest for him.

Each side could look out for the other's needs in their respective areas of expertise.

The problem is that no one wants to honestly put forth the effort to make this work based on what I've seen over the years I've played the game, and more often than not, I'm reminded by the actions of people of the story about the scorpion and the frog.

A true "empire builder" should take an industry corp into their group, give those people the ability to work with them to provide them with the minerals, ships, and every other things that can be built at a fraction of the costs of the sometimes over-inflated markets in low and nullsec, give those folks a safe environment to work in and watch what will happen.
Killing every miner or industrialist and their POSs in sight just because you happen to be in an area where the police don't go, only cuts your own throat to spite your face.
Make your own police force and trust me when I tell you that if given the opportunity and teaching that's needed, those same miners will gladly dock up and get in their fighting ships to help you protect that which you've built together.


It is a truth, an undeniable truth that each person has their own style of play, that's what they're comfortable with and if they want to play that way, that's fine, it's their right and their choice to do so, but I do find it funny that many of those same folks complain about what they don't have and the only reason they don't in many cases is because in their own way, it is they themselves who have placed it out of their reach

Well I hope I've said that in a way that makes sense, but if not, I apologize in advance.

This of course is nothing more than my humble opinion and you can take it for what it's worth to you and I'm perfectly fine with that.


o/
Santa

Please come join the fun Dec 14th., 2017 Find the details [HERE] when the post is made
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#102 - 2012-12-18 05:45:07 UTC
Santa Spirit wrote:
Killing every miner or industrialist and their POSs in sight just because you happen to be in an area where the police don't go, only cuts your own throat to spite your face.

It's almost as if we don't have people building the biggest, most expensive and riskiest things in our home, or mining ops going on in the ratting systems (when people aren't camping us, of course).

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Santa Spirit
Christmas Spirit and Goodwill Toward Man
#103 - 2012-12-18 06:12:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Santa Spirit
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Santa Spirit wrote:
Killing every miner or industrialist and their POSs in sight just because you happen to be in an area where the police don't go, only cuts your own throat to spite your face.

It's almost as if we don't have people building the biggest, most expensive and riskiest things in our home, or mining ops going on in the ratting systems (when people aren't camping us, of course).



Hmmm. what I wrote probably came across a little harsher than I meant it.

folks (you guys) build some of the coolest, biggest, most beautiful ships and provide us carebears with some of the niftiest toys..

I don't/didn't mean to detract from what you guys do accomplish there and if my post came across that way I am sorry.

I just constantly see people saying there aren't enough manufacturing slots, research slots, ect ect and the surest way to rectify that isn't to wait on the game devs to find some balance that won't send the entire system into a death spiral, it's just to do it yourselves and enlist the help and cooperation of those who can help you achieve that goal while building something that benefits you both.
My Intent was to just offer one possible solution to the problem.

And to all of the folks who live their lives in low and null space, I envy and admire you for the things you accomplish under the circumstances, I only wish that I had the courage and drive that you guys have to put yourselves in that position on an almost daily basis. :P

o/
Santa.

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#104 - 2012-12-18 06:17:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Santa Spirit wrote:
I just constantly see people saying there aren't enough manufacturing slots, research slots, ect ect and the surest way to rectify that isn't to wait on the game devs to find some balance that won't send the entire system into a death spiral, it's just to do it yourselves and enlist the help and cooperation of those who can help you achieve that goal while building something that benefits you both.
My Intent was to just offer one possible solution to the problem.

POSes are bad at manufacturing. We already have the max of 1 outpost per system in many systems. It just doesn't work out. I *think* all the slots are filled with important things like all the capital ship components, I don't really know what they're crammed full of. There's also "reserved" ones with ridiculously high prices that are dropped for the alliance's supercap producers. I think.


The simple economics mean "our" industrialists work out in highsec and just sell the stuff in Jita anyway (except for the 425mm Railgun I producers).For example, with a BPO, it's best to jump it to highsec where you have your nice 1man alt corp POS, research it, and copy it there, then move your BPCs back down. Highsec is just that awesome.

A slightly separate issue is the whole importing thing, which relies on our Jump Freighter service (our weak point!!!). It's fairly competitive for things we use. There's also the part where fitted doctrine ships are put up in VFK or whatever the staging system is. Rather than trying (rather fruitlessly probably) to keep prices down, you just get paid in reimbursement when/if you die. If you aren't dying in moronic ways, with the wrong fit, or in the wrong fleet....


We don't have tons of uberhardcore players, so the simple flow of 1) Rat for isk, 2) Buy items in Jita, 3) Jump Freighter items down works well enough. It's even easier if you are using fleet ships and don't mind the small margins to be paid for contract fits. Then you just buy, insure, hop in and when you explode in fleet, get paid.

Newbies can just get all the rifters/slashers they want.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Santa Spirit
Christmas Spirit and Goodwill Toward Man
#105 - 2012-12-18 06:36:54 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

POSes are bad at manufacturing. We already have the max of 1 outpost per system in many systems. It just doesn't work out. I *think* all the slots are filled with important things like all the capital ship components, I don't really know what they're crammed full of. There's also "reserved" ones with ridiculously high prices that are dropped for the alliance's supercap producers. I think.


The simple economics mean "our" industrialists work out in highsec and just sell the stuff in Jita anyway (except for the 425mm Railgun I producers).For example, with a BPO, it's best to jump it to highsec where you have your nice 1man alt corp POS, research it, and copy it there, then move your BPCs back down. Highsec is just that awesome.

A slightly separate issue is the whole importing thing, which relies on our Jump Freighter service (our weak point!!!). It's fairly competitive for things we use. There's also the part where fitted doctrine ships are put up in VFK or whatever the staging system is. Rather than trying (rather fruitlessly probably) to keep prices down, you just get paid in reimbursement when/if you die. If you aren't dying in moronic ways, with the wrong fit, or in the wrong fleet....


We don't have tons of uberhardcore players, so the simple flow of 1) Rat for isk, 2) Buy items in Jita, 3) Jump Freighter items down works well enough. It's even easier if you are using fleet ships and don't mind the small margins to be paid for contract fits. Then you just buy, insure, hop in and when you explode in fleet, get paid.

Newbies can just get all the rifters/slashers they want.


makes sense i guess from my limited knowledge of exactly how things operate down there
and Yes the 425s, I make some for a fellow and sell to him in bulk at prices that are below market in my area, I don't mind doing it because I know he'll never leave me hanging with some that I can't get rid of.
IRL I'm a problem solver, I have (not to toot my own horn) been given bonuses or recognition more than once for being able to come up with a better solution.
I guess (before I open my mouth again and stick my foot in it) I'll need to gain more knowledge of the specifics of that area and it's intricacies in order to be able to come up with some proposal that might work better along the lines of my previous suggestion, but with that said, I also think that somewhere, we should be able to gain some symbiosis/cooperation between our two groups of folks (carebears/non-carebears) that could hopefully remove barriers and gain benefits for us all until game restrictions or game balance allows a more profitable solution for everyone involved.

Thanks for the info and the chat. :)

o/
Santa

Please come join the fun Dec 14th., 2017 Find the details [HERE] when the post is made
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#106 - 2012-12-18 06:47:58 UTC
Santa Spirit wrote:
and Yes the 425s, I make some for a fellow and sell to him in bulk at prices that are below market in my area, I don't mind doing it because I know he'll never leave me hanging with some that I can't get rid of.

There's two cases I can think of.
One is that (certain) supercap producers sell their supercaps for the minerals (you give them minerals) and also get free use of alliance BPOs.

The other is that it's possible to buy black ops battleships cheaper than Jita, because those things "never" actually sell at Jita prices.

I was kidding about the 425s, really the reason freighterloads are brought down isn't because we love meta 1 battleship railguns...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Santa Spirit
Christmas Spirit and Goodwill Toward Man
#107 - 2012-12-18 07:01:41 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:


I was kidding about the 425s, really the reason freighterloads are brought down isn't because we love meta 1 battleship railguns...



YUP highest compression ratio of mins per m3...
reproc them to build the caps/supercap ships and other items of interest.

:)

o/
Santa

Please come join the fun Dec 14th., 2017 Find the details [HERE] when the post is made
CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#108 - 2012-12-18 10:26:43 UTC
I have removed some rumor mongering, trolling, and responses to such in this thread. Keep things constructive, it's really not hard to do.

EVE Online/DUST 514 Community Representative ※ EVE Illuminati ※ Fiction Adept

@CCP_Eterne ※ @EVE_LiveEvents
Yim Sei
Ontogenic Achronycal PLC
#109 - 2012-12-18 13:22:19 UTC
THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS...........

That every single one of you in this thread have your own selfish reasons to paint 'the truth' your own way.

The only real truth is balance. Thats balance between the Hi/Low amd nullsec players.

The only people who only truly understand that balance are CCP.

Does the corn understand the relevance of crop rotation?

Does the pig understand the fattening process?

Does the lab rat understand the underlying scientific theories related to its maze?

I think you will find the same answer as should you answer truthfully - Do you know the underlying reasons of every decision maker, chartered accountant and business developer of CCP?


“Not-knowing is true knowledge.
Presuming to know is a disease.
First realize that you are sick;
then you can move toward health.”
― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

Post with my main? This is my main - I just overtrain and overplay my alts.
Mund Richard
#110 - 2012-12-18 13:44:13 UTC
Yim Sei wrote:
The only people who only truly understand that balance are CCP.

Well, if you start bringing in THE TRUTH...

What CCP understand is what they want to achieve, and how far the state of affairs is from that.
You can call it balance if you wish.

I liked the quote you gave.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Santa Spirit
Christmas Spirit and Goodwill Toward Man
#111 - 2012-12-18 18:31:11 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:


A total lack of empire building aside, I can kill people at will in Null-sec and I like the feeling of belonging to something bigger than me.

Roll


Exactly. I play in nullsec because I've met a bunch of guys that seem pretty cool. We like to play with internet spaceships, and blow stuff up. Sometimes we're pretty awesome. Sometimes we suck. Everyone has good days and bad days. But we play as a group, we trust each other, and we pretty much know each other's strengths and weaknesses.

High sec however seems to be mostly about selfishness. My ISK. My wallet. My shinies. My standings. Alliances exist mostly to exploit newer players, and consist of a group of people doing things for themselves. With the occasional roam into a wormhole or low sec.


I can't speak for every corp or alliance out there, but I can tell you that you are 180 off in your assumption as it would apply or pertain to my main's corp.

We help new players, we don't exploit them, we buy/build/give them ships, we have cans of mlvl 3 and 4 mission loot that we use to help them fit a ship, we give them books from our cans (i almost always buy 10 at a time of the starter books for new folks) we give them advice based on our experience so they don't make the same mistakes some of us made when we were young.
Sure we like shiny toys (who doesn't) but that's not the driving force for any of us in the corp. we've made money in high sec, but not the kind of money we've heard of in other than high sec space. we build things for low/null folks and sell them to them for less than what we could put it on the market for, we mine in groups to be able to fill those orders and we mission in groups (taking the new guys with us) so we can blow stuff up and they can too where they won't get their butt handed to them on a platter.

For the new player trying to go it solo, there's no easy way to get a foothold in EVE, not always help available and there are more scammers out there who would take advantage of someone new than those who would draw some moral line in the sand and leave "new" players out of their schemes, these things when combined will run a player out of the game if the person doesn't have or find someone to help them learn the ropes on their way to whatever their chosen profession ends up being.

I realize you said "mostly" and I don't want to discount that, i simply think that too often that type statement is used as a "blanket" description for all of highsec corps and that's simply not the case from where I sit and i feel that sometimes it's prudent to show the other side of the coin if for nothing else than to ensure a balance of perspective.

just my 0.02 isks worth.
o/
Santa

Please come join the fun Dec 14th., 2017 Find the details [HERE] when the post is made
Qolde
Scrambled Eggs Inc.
#112 - 2012-12-18 19:13:55 UTC
I agree that part of nullsec's problem is self created. Most nullsec alliances require PVP participation. 99% of lowsec/nullsec corps are NBSI. But most of all, everyone supports hisec's industrial and commercial supremacy by exclusively buying and selling in Jita. You want people to consider moving to null for industrial purposes, make it happen. The few people who are selling manufacturing items in null are mistaking the lack of sell orders as a shortage of supply, and try to sell high. It's really a lack of demand. If you moon mine and react some stuff in 0.0, sell it there below Jita's prices. Put buy orders up for stuff that is likely to be produced in your area. If nullsec as a whole refused to sell in Jita, and instead use NPC null and lowsec waypoints as market hubs, you'd start to see changes. I'm sure we can change the game if we really want. The entire manufacturing market (t1 and t2) cannot be sustained without nullsec. The only problem is distribution of resources, hence a neutral ground (hisec) in which to trade. This sustains the POSes and manufacturing slots around the trade hubs. We make the goods available to the carebear, and now complain that they have it too easy?

If someone craps in your sandbox: 1. Light it on fire 2. Grab your shovel 3. Throw it back at them.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#113 - 2012-12-18 21:35:46 UTC
Qolde wrote:
I agree that part of nullsec's problem is self created. Most nullsec alliances require PVP participation. 99% of lowsec/nullsec corps are NBSI. But most of all, everyone supports hisec's industrial and commercial supremacy by exclusively buying and selling in Jita. You want people to consider moving to null for industrial purposes, make it happen. The few people who are selling manufacturing items in null are mistaking the lack of sell orders as a shortage of supply, and try to sell high. It's really a lack of demand. If you moon mine and react some stuff in 0.0, sell it there below Jita's prices. Put buy orders up for stuff that is likely to be produced in your area. If nullsec as a whole refused to sell in Jita, and instead use NPC null and lowsec waypoints as market hubs, you'd start to see changes. I'm sure we can change the game if we really want. The entire manufacturing market (t1 and t2) cannot be sustained without nullsec. The only problem is distribution of resources, hence a neutral ground (hisec) in which to trade. This sustains the POSes and manufacturing slots around the trade hubs. We make the goods available to the carebear, and now complain that they have it too easy?



Can you imagine that there might be good reasons why people aren't doing what you suggest? Like, for instance, that there's less manufacturing capacity in the whole of Deklein than there is in the single system of Nonni?

Can you imagine that there simply isn't the infrastructure in 0.0 to support your proposal?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#114 - 2012-12-18 23:03:15 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Yim Sei wrote:
The only people who only truly understand that balance are CCP.

Well, if you start bringing in THE TRUTH...

What CCP understand is what they want to achieve, and how far the state of affairs is from that.
You can call it balance if you wish.

I liked the quote you gave.

Yes, Titans are rare and balanced by their cost.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#115 - 2012-12-18 23:23:30 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Qolde wrote:
I agree that part of nullsec's problem is self created. Most nullsec alliances require PVP participation. 99% of lowsec/nullsec corps are NBSI. But most of all, everyone supports hisec's industrial and commercial supremacy by exclusively buying and selling in Jita. You want people to consider moving to null for industrial purposes, make it happen. The few people who are selling manufacturing items in null are mistaking the lack of sell orders as a shortage of supply, and try to sell high. It's really a lack of demand. If you moon mine and react some stuff in 0.0, sell it there below Jita's prices. Put buy orders up for stuff that is likely to be produced in your area. If nullsec as a whole refused to sell in Jita, and instead use NPC null and lowsec waypoints as market hubs, you'd start to see changes. I'm sure we can change the game if we really want. The entire manufacturing market (t1 and t2) cannot be sustained without nullsec. The only problem is distribution of resources, hence a neutral ground (hisec) in which to trade. This sustains the POSes and manufacturing slots around the trade hubs. We make the goods available to the carebear, and now complain that they have it too easy?



Can you imagine that there might be good reasons why people aren't doing what you suggest? Like, for instance, that there's less manufacturing capacity in the whole of Deklein than there is in the single system of Nonni?

Can you imagine that there simply isn't the infrastructure in 0.0 to support your proposal?


And here is the citation;

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Outpost

The problem with blaming nullsec for not fixing up their own space is that no one is actually looking at what nullsec has available.

We have 4 choices of outpost, and each is specialized to only have a large number of slots in one particular thing. And even fully upgraded, past the base price of about 20 billion, they are not as good as the NPC stations, and we can only have 1 per system.

The Amarr outpost tops out at 29 factory slots, and 30% base refine. That means that even at max skills and the best implants, you still can't get 100% refine, and that is after spending some 60 billion isk.

The Minmater outpost can get a 50% base yield, which is common in NPC stations, but tops out at 9 factory slots.

The Caldari outpost tops out at 19 research slots.

The Gallente outpost is used a lot just so allies can have offices in our space, but is otherwise totally worthless.

With the small number of factory slots, only 1 type of outpost capable of 100% refine, and the limit on 1 outpost per system, nullsec will _never_ be able to build itself up to compete even a little bit with NPC stations. Never mind the benefits of living in an NPC corp and having Concord protection. Just the raw number of slot/refine and the capital needed will forever keep nullsec industry poor.

Being able to drop and run a POS "for self", and not have to deal with permissions and alt corps could help. And I could live with the 1 specialized outpost per system, if the outposts stared at highsec quality in what ever niche and could be upgraded beyond that. Example, the Amarr outpost having 50 factory slots as a base, Minmatar having 45% base yield by default, and so on. Maybe even have the other station have a refinery that can be upgraded to at least 45% so it is possible to get 100% refine if I invest in skills and implants.
Father Amarria
Doomheim
#116 - 2012-12-19 01:34:09 UTC
After reading a lot of the Posts from the Industrialists of Null Sec, I understand why you are having issues.

But I do not think Nerfing High Sec is your solution, I think CCP needs to redesign their Sov / PoS structures for those of you trying to Live in Null Sec, and I think they should allow you to Anchor and Upgrades as many PoS's into Stations in one system as possible.

It seems kind of Cheesy that they want to push people to Null Sec, then say ok You are here but now we are going to bend you over for being here by limiting everything.

To me your Equipment should be better then that of High Sec.

At least allow for 1 of Every type of Station to be anchored in a system. So there are options for every level of game play.
AstraPardus
Earthside Mixlabs
#117 - 2012-12-19 01:40:07 UTC
Pretty GuyYeah wrote:
The problem is that the nullsec alliances ingore what they actually are.

They are empires. Empire builders, ever heard of it?

If only they would actually try to build an empire that could be used for something else than measure e-peen on the territory map..


And if they would actually bother to provide some half decent citizenship to people in the nullsec empires people may actually also go there. But no. It's a huge band of pirates that looks only to kill you - so why in the world do you think people don't want to come to your empire?

It's all a question of empire; in which do you want to live? One the tries to protect you or one that hunts you, griefs you and kills you?



If they need something from CCP to make this easier for them, then ask for god's sake. There's nothing more stupid than to ask them to nerf highsec because you're too bad to provide it yourself.

"Carebears are bad, they don't want to enter the PvP territory that we own in which we kill everyone who enters. Better nerf hisec because we're doing everything perfect."



I debunk this with three letters, followed by four: CVA & NRDS
Every time I post is Pardy time! :3
Father Amarria
Doomheim
#118 - 2012-12-19 01:45:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Father Amarria
So again from a New Corp / Player Perspective.

Why would I even bother trying to get to Null Sec?

It seems kind of pointless, More Risk then Reward, and just plain headaches waiting to happen.

Not to mention Billions of ISK that has to be spent to even make a go at it.

I'd rather visit, then move at this point.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#119 - 2012-12-19 02:16:07 UTC
Father Amarria wrote:
So again from a New Corp / Player Perspective.

Why would I even bother trying to get to Null Sec?

It seems kind of pointless, More Risk then Reward, and just plain headaches waiting to happen.

Not to mention Billions of ISK that has to be spent to even make a go at it.

I'd rather visit, then move at this point.

You shouldn't bother. CCP has made for you a paradise in New Eden - High Security Space.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#120 - 2012-12-19 04:58:41 UTC
With the whole risk vs. reward thing that people keep talking about, I don't understand why Eve's manufacturing & refining is set up the way it is. You'd think that the "reward" for taking the "risk" of low/null would be better refining percentages, and more manufacturing ability.

Why do high-sec and null-sec have to be so dependent on each other in the first place?

Profit favors the prepared