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Get rid of "insurance" entirely

Author
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2012-12-17 20:31:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Crimeo Khamsi
Insurance is really pointless. It's not anything like actual real life insurance: it is just a flat government subsidy on ship hulls. Thus, there are no interesting decisions to be made. The right choice is ALWAYS either not insuring (if you are going to repackage frequently, like with shuttles), or platinum (if you don't plan on repackaging).

This unnecessary button clicking annoyance can be easily removed, with absolutely no affect to actual gameplay, in two simple steps:

1) Get rid of insurance.
2) Multiply the mineral recipe amounts for all t1 ship hulls by 0.3

Since platinum = pay 30% and receive 100%, the only real affect of so-called "insurance" in this game is actually just to reduce the real cost (mineral portion) of t1 ship hulls by 70%. We can have the same effect with less busy work by simply applying that number automatically and directly to recipes.
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2012-12-17 20:45:21 UTC
Actually there would be one other side effect: lower demand for ore, means less demand for miners.

So, better way without screwing over miners:
1) Keep "insurance" but make it automatically pay out 70% of t1 hull mineral value for no cost, without having to push any buttons, and no option to change insurance amount.

Done!
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#3 - 2012-12-17 20:47:33 UTC
if you don't plan to lose your ship, don't insure, you safe money. If you plan to lose your ship, insure, you safe money.

I don't see whats wrong with it. It is a decision, players can choose. Having the option to choose between multiple insurance types is debatable since most will probably use platinum but i see no real argument why it should be removed.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2012-12-17 20:56:02 UTC
Quote:
if you don't plan to lose your ship, don't insure, you safe money

No you don't. Im suggesting automatic 70% insurance coverage at no cost.

Zero cost is not a "savings" compared to zero cost.



Right now, you have a choice to choose between losing 60% of your ship and 30% of your ship when it blows up. I'm just saying make it 30% all the time, automatically, no (annoying and in all honesty irrelevant) decision required, and minus 10 or so clicks per ship you buy.

Nobody gets hurt by that, and the game becomes less tedious and complicated.
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#5 - 2012-12-17 21:11:44 UTC
do you get FREE insurance IRL? NO.

leave insurance AS IS! value of the minerals used then minus the cost of the insurance policy.

NOW t2 hulls.. same thing but add on the cost of the additional resources used.

LOW sec. lower pay out due to the known risk and knowingly going into danger.

NULL sec.. no insurance payout at all.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]

Kirkwood Ross
Golden Profession
#6 - 2012-12-17 21:20:52 UTC
I like the idea of removing isk ensurance completely and then adding new salvage to the wreck that could be refined into minerals. That way isk isn't being put into the game and it encourages players to hold the field while a salvage team comes out to clean up and get some of the minerals back from the ship parts to rebuild ships. Perhaps make the salvaged ship parts refine into 10% of the ships total mineral cost.
Octoven
Noir Holdings
#7 - 2012-12-17 22:05:48 UTC
I dont understand why you would need to remove a feature that you, or no one else as you imply, uses. Leave it in place for those who use it and if you don't it shouldnt bother you.
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#8 - 2012-12-17 22:09:47 UTC
Kirkwood Ross wrote:
I like the idea of removing isk ensurance completely and then adding new salvage to the wreck that could be refined into minerals. That way isk isn't being put into the game and it encourages players to hold the field while a salvage team comes out to clean up and get some of the minerals back from the ship parts to rebuild ships. Perhaps make the salvaged ship parts refine into 10% of the ships total mineral cost.



your alliance must be nice....this won't work for a large majority of them. Most homes I lived in very rare was the chance you actually got your wreck back even if you won the battle and the enemy did not want that pos and left the field. You'd have players like me who jumped on the hunt the straglers down detail. And you'd get your vuttures who picked the corpses clean.

Hell we had one corp make no attempt to hide thier vulture ways....they'd field rorq's as part of the cap crews. Since before the the days of noctis they'd clean any wrecks even if not in their corp. Oddly enough no one ever got a message from them saying player xyz we have your wreck, will trade back to you at station.

Only corp I know of where your grand scheme would work is evolution. Unless changed they were a "communiist/socialist" corp. Somehow they make it work but....I know former members not thrilled with that arrangement when in it. Also worth noting a corp is not an alliance....evolution may have been communistic as a corp, they ran IT very capitalistic though lol.

TL;DR....the only time I only ever saw the gentlemen's aggreement that people who lost ships get loot and salvage given to them to replace the ship loss was in small roams where most were mates or not total asshats if outside the circle of friends as it were. 80 plus people across several corps....that wreck ain't coming to you to replace the loss. And this is why you have insurance.
Kirkwood Ross
Golden Profession
#9 - 2012-12-17 22:14:34 UTC
I never said you'd get your own wreck back or any sort of recovery personally. Just whoever holds the field or vultures battlefields could make back some minerals if they were willing to expose themselves while they salvaged and hauled. In retribution they made all wrecks white so they can be tractored and cleaned up a bit faster.
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2012-12-17 22:50:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Crimeo Khamsi
Seranova Farreach wrote:
do you get FREE insurance IRL? NO.


1) You already get free coverage in eve. if you don't choose any options, you still get 40% back when you lose your ship. You are aware of this, yes?

2) Comparing actual insurance to anything related to what they call "insurance" in EVE is laughable. Actual insurance companies would have to make money. How do you expect eve insurance companies would make money by paying out 90% of their policies for three times the amount of money they got for them?

The only way insurance would be mildly realistic in eve would be if your premiums went up depending on how many ships you crashed, such that the insurance company could still make money. For example, if you crash about 95% of your ships, then in order to make money off of you, you would have to pay something like 97% the cost of the hull, in exchange for 100% coverage. Thus, real PVPers would never ever bother with insurance if it were even remotely realistic.

Additionally, there would be no real reason for customers to buy insurance if it were just a one time, up-front premium. Generally, the main reason people buy insurance is that they want to spread out their risk over time, so they aren't hit all at once by some huge bill they can't cover (another reason is if you don't know if it will happen to you at all, but in Eve, you will always lose ships, so meh). But EVE insurance doesn't work like that. Even if you were to adjust premiums based on people's loss records, not even haulers losing their ships 20% of the time would spend 25% on insurance. Why would they? It's just moving the one big bill around, not spreading it out.

So to make insurance at all realistic would require a major revamp, where you started off with bad deals but could work toward reasonable rates over time if you didn't crash many ships compared to how many you insured. And it would also have to be based on daily small payments, not a lump sum. AND due to the small payments you would need to have some way of investigating insurance fraud....

Huge nightmare, not at all worth it and almost impossible to balance to make "insurance" realistic. Thus, I am not suggesting making it more realistic. I'm suggesting admitting to what it is already, which is NOT insurance, but actually just a government subsidy. And government subsidies shouldn't require any annoying clicking. They should be automatic.

Quote:
I dont understand why you would need to remove a feature that you, or no one else as you imply, uses. Leave it in place for those who use it and if you don't it shouldnt bother you.

I said no such thing. It is exactly the opposite: I not only use it all the time, but everybody uses it SO often and So ubiquitously (especially for larger ships where the isk makes more difference) that we can dispense with the unnecessary clicking and complexity and annoyance and just make it automatic.

Quote:
I like the idea of removing isk ensurance completely and then adding new salvage to the wreck that could be refined into minerals. That way isk isn't being put into the game and it encourages players to hold the field while a salvage team comes out to clean up

That may or may not be a good idea. Your suggestion changes the balance of the game. It makes ships more expensive for pilots, and shifts those rewards over to the people who shot them down. It is a nerf for defenders and a buff for pirates. Which is inevitably going to be controversial.

I don't want to get into any controversy or change any balance issues. Unlike yours, my suggestion keeps money in exactly the same hands it was in before and does not change the real prices or profits for anybody significantly. Therefore it doesn't affect balance. It just makes the game simpler and less annoying/tedious.

If you want to change balance, I suggest a separate thread.
Akiyo Mayaki
Perkone
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-12-18 00:58:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Akiyo Mayaki
This also came to my mind as I first checked out the feature. I didn't really see the logic outside of choosing the best possible insurance. And.. I guess I still don't.. I'm fairly positive I will lose my ship before the plat insurance expires and I don't plan on repackaging it either.. (:

No

Mirac Factar
Hypergolic
#12 - 2012-12-18 02:21:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Mirac Factar
This is EvE we should be moving away from NPCs providing services.

We should make an 'insurance' player to player contract, give players who offer these insurance contracts the tools to manage risk and create these contracts similar to real insurance contracts.

e.g
how many ships people lose and other pertinent statistics
stand down periods before coverage
sec status restriction (both player and system the ship is used in)
fitting requirements

and then let the EvE market forces sort out the solution as any good market does.
MItchell Jensen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-12-18 07:23:33 UTC
The insurance system is fine as it is in my opinion.

Getting the 70% of the value of the ship is a good enough excuse to get it if you know that you're going to lose your ship soon. Players can do this before a big battle so they don't suffer as much of a loss if they lose their ships.

I mean, if 2 alliances end up fighting and one side loses 100 ships valued at 10 billion ISK (not including mods), then getting 7 billion ISK back if everyone platinum insured their ships would be a very healthy action to take. It reduces the losses.

I don't know why you have to be picky on a system that works just fine. It's a simple system and definitely is not realistic, but do you really play this game to get ripped off by an insurance company? If you don't like insurance don't use it, or if you're pissed at it do what every other relatively intelligent EVE player would do. Start a Corporation that gives out insurance!

CCP Dropbear: rofl

edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2012-12-18 12:30:33 UTC
What is with all of these 'hurr durr insurance is bad' threads lately anyway? Insurance is fine.
Aptenodytes
Reckless Abandon
#15 - 2012-12-18 12:41:25 UTC
You state yourself, there are 2 choices. If you don't plan to lose your ship, don't insure, save the premium money, and get 30% back if you do lose it. Or if you do plan to lose it, get 70% back. Why remove that choice?

As for the in-between options I imagine they are mostly used by new players who can't afford the platinum premium. CCP can no doubt provide stats for this if they ever did consider changing up the insurance mechanics.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#16 - 2012-12-18 13:11:21 UTC
Insurance is awesome. Back when isk mattered and you spent 2 weeks saving up for a Ferox the insurance was a nice mechanism to get people back out pvp'ing. Now most people swim in isk or just has to reach out in the nearest Anomaly for 20 minutes to get the same and as such insurance seems unnecesary...

But instead of blaiming insurance I'd rather see CCP trying to limit how much isk gets stuffed into the game. When the super expensive ships are as common as today the world is coming to an end...
Erika Bronz
Nidaros Fritidsforening
#17 - 2012-12-18 18:00:45 UTC
Ship insurance is a guarantee for mineral prices. Won't disappear.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#18 - 2012-12-18 18:59:39 UTC
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Insurance is really pointless. It's not anything like actual real life insurance: it is just a flat government subsidy on ship hulls. Thus, there are no interesting decisions to be made. The right choice is ALWAYS either not insuring (if you are going to repackage frequently, like with shuttles), or platinum (if you don't plan on repackaging).

This unnecessary button clicking annoyance can be easily removed, with absolutely no affect to actual gameplay, in two simple steps:

1) Get rid of insurance.
2) Multiply the mineral recipe amounts for all t1 ship hulls by 0.3

Since platinum = pay 30% and receive 100%, the only real affect of so-called "insurance" in this game is actually just to reduce the real cost (mineral portion) of t1 ship hulls by 70%. We can have the same effect with less busy work by simply applying that number automatically and directly to recipes.
It's not meant to be anything like RL insurance. It's a combat facilitator and helps promote boat violence.

There is always the chance, that you don't lose your ship during the insurance period. I've had this happen to me a few times.

I prefer choice and options tbh, this idea removes them and doesn't solve anything but button pressing.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
#19 - 2012-12-18 21:12:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbara Nichole
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:

Since platinum = pay 30% and receive 100%, the only real affect of so-called "insurance" in this game is actually just to reduce the real cost (mineral portion) of t1 ship hulls by 70%. We can have the same effect with less busy work by simply applying that number automatically and directly to recipes.

Part of the game is remembering to do things... so I disagree with the "same result" statement. There are steep penalties for forgetting things in this game. The choice of types of insurance is kind of strange though.

While, fundamentally T1 ships seem ok to me for insurance, T2 ships are stupid. Say you are insuring a 150 million isk hull; the cost for platinum insurance is 16 million; the payout after the loss is 54 million isk. You recover about 38 million of your 150 million isk loss… that’s not even enough to buy a replace a module in many cases.

T2 platinum insurance - you are insuring a tire on your car…almost. Would I skip it? no. 38million is 38million.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]

Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2012-12-19 02:59:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Crimeo Khamsi
Quote:
Part of the game is remembering to do things...

Uh, right, and that's a problem.

Have you ever heard anybody say, "Sweet! I get to remember to pick up my dry cleaning!"? No. Remembering random errands is not fun.

For example, would you find it more or less fun if we had to feed our pilots and tell the pod when to inject water, and if we had to drain the septic tanks on our pods when we were in a station to prevent overflow? Perhaps we could have a little minigame where you have to remember to pull your socks onto your character whenever they get out of the spaceship, or else they get athlete's foot and need anti fungal cream applications twice daily.

It's an epic space adventure game, not a tamagachi.
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