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Are hobgoblins really the better choice of drones in my case?

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Shajden
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-12-17 09:12:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Shajden
Hey guys

Rookie question from a returning player.

Ive been using the new destroyer Algos alot lately and i am loving every bit of it, but ive had a lot of doubt on which drones really are the best to use when fighting frigs (which is what i encounter the most)

Some info before question: My char is heavily trained drone guy with 6.5 million sp in drones alone but only caldari drone spec is 5 (rest training)

Ive been using hornets because of the following arguements:

Better speed
Better tracking
Better HP

Now, ive done several tests with a fellow frigate m8 with mwd on, it is a fact that the hobgoblins do more dmg but also have a harder time on keeping up with a mwd frigate.

So my question is, should i just let go of the hornets and start using the hobgoblins or are the better tracking and speed really more dps on fast frigates? Obviously on any slower target it would be best to use hobs but im kinda proud of my hornets cant be outrunned even by the fastests frigate in the game.

Heres my stats btw so you can see i really do love drones :)
http://rvbeve.com/blue/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=45367&view=ships_weapons

p.s Can really recommend RvB, its alot of fun
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#2 - 2012-12-17 09:27:26 UTC
As a rule, Gallente drones always get more damage per shot compared to anyone else.

However, they only do thermal damage. So it really depends on the target. Is the damage bonus enough to offset the potential greater damage another drone could do if your target is strong in thermal resist and weak in something else?

For example, against rogue drones Amarr do best because they're really weak against EM. So weak that the bonus from using Gallente drones is still less than the regular damage from Amarr drones.

So I guess the answer is: Situational.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Shajden
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-12-17 09:56:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Shajden
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
As a rule, Gallente drones always get more damage per shot compared to anyone else.

However, they only do thermal damage. So it really depends on the target. Is the damage bonus enough to offset the potential greater damage another drone could do if your target is strong in thermal resist and weak in something else?

For example, against rogue drones Amarr do best because they're really weak against EM. So weak that the bonus from using Gallente drones is still less than the regular damage from Amarr drones.

So I guess the answer is: Situational.


Yea okay, well obviously targets resistance would matter a great deal on how much dmg you would do but, if we ignore the resistances for a second here, i am interested to know if the lesser tracking and speed of the hobgoblins makes the hornets land the same, better or worse amount of dmg against very fast frigates?
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#4 - 2012-12-17 10:30:42 UTC
General rule: Hobgoblins for everything, except Angels (use Warrior IIs)

I believe someone ran the math and the Amarr drones are actually not the optimal choice in ANY situation (ergo, don't use Amarr drones, ever)
Dzajic
#5 - 2012-12-17 11:53:17 UTC
Oh you are making my poor Curator IIs cry in a corner.
Cyniac
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-12-17 18:38:19 UTC
Dzajic wrote:
Oh you are making my poor Curator IIs cry in a corner.


Curators aren't really drones, they are floating platforms projecting death from afar. (Does the amarr drone specialization skill apply to them after all the changes?)

It's the Acolytes / Infiltrators / Praetors which are meh.


To the OP - for PVP hobgoblins vs frigates are so so because they really have trouble keeping up. Warriors are often your best friends. (with the Algos bonus to drone speed those warriors zip around fast).
Tamiya Sarossa
Resistance is Character Forming
#7 - 2012-12-17 18:49:54 UTC
Warriors are almost universally preferred to hobgoblins in PvP for the reasons you mentioned - speed, tracking - so if you'd prefer to use Hornets instead they're probably a perfectly acceptable mid-ground between Hobbies and Warriors. Hobgoblins are by no means the be-all and end-all of killing frigates.
ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#8 - 2012-12-17 21:06:41 UTC
My personal rule(s) of thumb is(are):

Is the target frigate scrammed and webbed? Hobgoblins.
Is he free to run around, under some limits (not hyper-fast ship, is scrammed, or something else)? Hornets.
Is he exceptionally fast, or resistant to kinetic damage? Warriors.

Of course, this isn't scripture, but it gives me some way to quickly decide on something. Feel free to come up with your own.

ISD LackOfFaith

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to Eve Mail or anything other than the forums.
Shajden
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-12-18 10:13:33 UTC
Okay, thanks for the feedback.

I did another couple of tests last night vs a 2500m/s frigate and a 5000m/s frigate.

On the "slow" frigate" both the hobs and hornets where able to land many hits both of them, the hobs took a little seconds to catch up vs the hornet but it didnt really seem like a big problem.

On the 5000m/s frigate though, only the hornets was able to land hits.

So i guess if its just normal frigates i shouldnt expect anyone of them to be going faster than a hobgoblin cant keep up.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-12-18 17:49:37 UTC
The only real certainty you have is Amarr drones are generally not worth using.


Hopefully at some point Drones and the Drone UI will recieve some proper Dev-time loving.
Mire Stoude
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-12-19 00:20:29 UTC
If this is for running missions or ratting in gallente / caldari space, I believe the overall damage from kinetic and thermal drones are about the same. More damage from thermal but better tracking and speed with kinetic seems to balance each other out. I always perferred kinetic drones when running missions.
Nor Tzestu
Dos Pollos Hermanos
#12 - 2012-12-19 01:00:04 UTC
There are non sentry combat drones besides Gal and Matar? And people actually use them? Like on purpose? Basic math people...
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#13 - 2012-12-19 04:39:10 UTC
Mire Stoude wrote:
If this is for running missions or ratting in gallente / caldari space, I believe the overall damage from kinetic and thermal drones are about the same. More damage from thermal but better tracking and speed with kinetic seems to balance each other out. I always perferred kinetic drones when running missions.


That's because kinetic drones are better against both Serpentis and Guristas. See here.
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-12-19 14:27:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzzmong
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Mire Stoude wrote:
If this is for running missions or ratting in gallente / caldari space, I believe the overall damage from kinetic and thermal drones are about the same. More damage from thermal but better tracking and speed with kinetic seems to balance each other out. I always perferred kinetic drones when running missions.


That's because kinetic drones are better against both Serpentis and Guristas. See here.


I was about to say the same thing. In Gal space, Hornets are actually better than Hobs as you're mostly bashing Serps, so they hit slightly better but are quite a bit faster.
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-12-19 15:17:45 UTC
Something else to bear in mind: Caldari drones move a little more quickly than Gallente drones, so they don't spend as long in transit, letting them spend more time applying their DPS to their targets. They're not as fast as Minmatar drones, granted, but every little bit helps, especially when you add them to the Serpentis and Gallente kinetic holes. (Also, if you're using sentries, Wardens don't do as much raw per-shot damage as Gardes, but they can apply it at much longer distances, which probably balances out from a sustained-damage viewpoint.)

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
Shajden
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-12-20 08:37:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Shajden
Marc Callan wrote:
Something else to bear in mind: Caldari drones move a little more quickly than Gallente drones, so they don't spend as long in transit, letting them spend more time applying their DPS to their targets. They're not as fast as Minmatar drones, granted, but every little bit helps, especially when you add them to the Serpentis and Gallente kinetic holes. (Also, if you're using sentries, Wardens don't do as much raw per-shot damage as Gardes, but they can apply it at much longer distances, which probably balances out from a sustained-damage viewpoint.)


Exactly my point in making this thread, i was interested in finding out how Hobgoblins performed vs Hornets in actual real scenarios and not just on paper. And my scenario being, very fast frigates.

On paper, Its very clear to see that Hobgoblins are the best dmg, Warriors the fastests and Hornets a perfect in between of the 2.

As i did more and more tests on my own, it became clear that Hobgoblins start struggling on targets moving faster than 4km m/s (even less without the algos mwd bonus) The times they needed to mwd up to shoot the target just kept increasing and increasing.

And as Marc says even though you think the small speed diff isnt a big deal, ive seen my Hobgoblins be as far as 10km behind my Hornets in big transit tests and that is alot tbh. Remember many times the drones must cover alot of distance from target to target and in my case (pvp) the target i am after often moves away from you.

Nevertheless, i have switched to Hobgoblins for main drones but only because of the algos drone mwd bonus. I do keep a pack of Hornets though still in case of catching interceptors etc.