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Frigate PvP Help
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Dhaaka Vincatar
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-12-15 19:46:58 UTC
I would like some opinions and advice from you folks on the forums, if that's alright with you.

I have been getting frigates exploded in PvP for a while now (off and on of course over the years), but I don't understand a few things.

I have a few questions and maybe someone can shed some light on them for me.

Firstly: Afterburners on frigates.

The way I see it there are four ways you can fit a frigate. MWD, short and long range, and Afterburner, short and long range.

I have seen many people fit Afterburners and I have fit them myself, but I don't understand how they ever work in PvP.

Afterburner/short range fits should in theory (and practice, since I lost several ships to people I couldn't ever catch), lose automatically to MWD/longrange and Afterburner/longrange fits, since they can't catch either one. They will beat a MWD/shortrange fit, but they will never get to fight one, as the MWD fit will walk away. So that leaves one type of frigate that they can fight and potentially win, out of four, which is other afterburner/shortrange frigates.

Afterburner/long range fits will lose to MWD/shortrange, beat Afterburner/shortrange, will never get to fight a MWD/longrange as it will walk away, and so this gets to fight 2/4 fits as it can fight itself too.

However, I see many afterburner/shortrange fits out there. Why is that? Is there something I am missing?

Secondly: Light Missiles and Drones against Frigates.

I have observed that Light Missiles do very little damage to MWDing frigates, which as I understand is due to the velocity of the ship compared to the explosion velocity of a light missile. Since there is no way to slow down a frigate from further then 12.5 km or so, are Light Missile fits for ships such as Kestrels or Breachers useless? Must they fit rockets and get close in in order to use their scram and web, so that they actually deal damage?

Along the same vein, I have noticed that light drones don't do ANY damage to a MWDing frigate, because they cannot catch it. Do drones ships like the new Tristan have to get in close as well? Do any drones have the range or speed to catch most frigates? How about web or energy neut drones?

And finally: Tier 2 pulse lasers

Since they have the ability to fit Tier 2 ammo, including the long range ammo Scorch, is there any reason to fit Small Beam Lasers at all? I have noticed Scorch almost gives the range of the long range guns to the short ranged version, and with nearly the same damage as Multifrequency? This seems a little unfair. Any thoughts?
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#2 - 2012-12-15 20:57:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Taoist Dragon
Basically it come down to how the fight is set up.

An AB fighter will murder a MWD fighter if he catches him.

But if the MWD fighter can get away then he'll slowly chew through the AB fighter.

So they effectively counter one another but it is all in the setup. If you are in an AB ship you need to set up the fight to land right on top of them or have them warp on top of you. The FW plex's are perfect for this. as you know exactly where your opponent will be warping into.

The lines get a bit more blurred if you use a long rnage fit with an AB and a short range fit with a mwd but in this fight my money would be on the AB fighter as he will have better range control once engaged.

Prepareation is the key with frigate pvp.

As for the missiles and drones......I often see fast kitey frigs get eaten by drones and light missiles so I'm not sure I agree that they don't work. The key is to get your support skills up if you want to use missiles and drones to combat kitey frigs. Also the new destroyer with a drone speed and/or drone tracking bonus' should whelp all over kitey frigs now.

T2 pulses are indeed nice but I often fit small beams to my frigs as on a few frigs the scorch range is just not quite far enough but if you fit samll beams T2 and put in imperial navy standard you get decent range with just a slight loss in damage and tracking which can be compensated with by good flying.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Dhaaka Vincatar
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-12-15 22:22:51 UTC
Thanks, that is really helpful!

I hope more people will weigh in with their advice and opinions.
Icarus Flame
Doomheim
#4 - 2012-12-16 19:50:10 UTC
I think that with frigates, "long range" can have two different meanings - either MWD kiting outside scram range, or AB kiting just inside scram range. If you're running an AB, scram, and web all inside 10k, then you can completely control range against any MWD-only fit or AB fits without a web. There are a number of frigs for which kiting at 9k works quite well - rail Incursus, Tristan, Tormentor with Scorch, etc.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#5 - 2012-12-16 19:59:01 UTC
Icarus Flame wrote:
I think that with frigates, "long range" can have two different meanings - either MWD kiting outside scram range, or AB kiting just inside scram range. If you're running an AB, scram, and web all inside 10k, then you can completely control range against any MWD-only fit or AB fits without a web. There are a number of frigs for which kiting at 9k works quite well - rail Incursus, Tristan, Tormentor with Scorch, etc.



Rail-incursus god tier.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Dhaaka Vincatar
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-12-17 07:04:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Dhaaka Vincatar
Icarus Flame wrote:
I think that with frigates, "long range" can have two different meanings - either MWD kiting outside scram range, or AB kiting just inside scram range. If you're running an AB, scram, and web all inside 10k, then you can completely control range against any MWD-only fit or AB fits without a web. There are a number of frigs for which kiting at 9k works quite well - rail Incursus, Tristan, Tormentor with Scorch, etc.


I see your point, I think, but wouldn't a short range, MWD fit (such as a Blaster Merlin, or something of that nature) be able to close into a decent range just by approaching the Afterburner ship with the MWD overloaded?

Apparently a Merlin can go 3.5 km/sec with an overloaded MWD. Between lag and the sheer speed you are going (nearly three times that of the Afterburner frigate, even if the Afterburner was overloaded too), wouldn't you be able to get to 2k or so before they shut down your MWD and web you?

This is all foolish EFT theorycraft of course. I guess even 2k isn't enough for a Blaster Boat anyways; since after you are both webbed, he is now going three times YOUR speed with the Afterburner on, and you've got no way to get away or maintain your range.

I guess one of those situations where Null ammo might win the fight and anything else you're boned.

But you've got no way to make him fight unless he wants to.... I guess these are more of a 'trap' fit where you kill overconfident people with the wrong fit?

Thanks for the input, though, and clearly it works (rail Incursus god tier, i guess), but I'm not sure its enough for me to fit an Afterburner again. If I'm going to blow up, I'd prefer it to be from my own bad judgement (my MWD Blaster Merlin vs said Afterburning Rail Incursus) then a guaranteed loss to a long range MWD fit you can't ever escape with an Afterburner.

Or do you have a trick for Afterburners to escape from MWDs?

EDIT: I guess the Rail Incursus can still FIGHT a long range MWD fit, since he can load Iron or whatever and the other frigate needs to have long range guns and ammo as well....he just can't kill him because he can't get the point on it, he might still be able to make him warp off....hmm.....something to think about i guess.

You've made a good case for the Afterburner Frigate with long range guns, I must say! Any use for the Afterburning Short-Range frigate?

Everyone please continue, this is very helpful!
Maelle LuzArdiden
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-12-17 07:44:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Maelle LuzArdiden
EDIT: nevermind, I fail at reading. Oops
Jakob Anedalle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-12-17 17:34:13 UTC
I seem to remember that the last time I tried to make an Incursus with rails, a warp disruptor, and a MWD I ran out of fit in a real hurry. It's probably my noob manual piloting skills, but I wouldn't want to count on using a scram if I was going to try to keep the opponent precisely between 9 and 10 km.

Very interesting thread, very helpful to us newer guys.

Trying out all the things to do here in Eve - it's quite a checklist. So I made a blog Jakob's Eve Checklist
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#9 - 2012-12-17 17:47:06 UTC
Jakob Anedalle wrote:
I seem to remember that the last time I tried to make an Incursus with rails, a warp disruptor, and a MWD I ran out of fit in a real hurry. It's probably my noob manual piloting skills, but I wouldn't want to count on using a scram if I was going to try to keep the opponent precisely between 9 and 10 km.

Very interesting thread, very helpful to us newer guys.


Rail incursus is an AB thing.

Scram kiting

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#10 - 2012-12-17 22:18:47 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Jakob Anedalle wrote:
I seem to remember that the last time I tried to make an Incursus with rails, a warp disruptor, and a MWD I ran out of fit in a real hurry. It's probably my noob manual piloting skills, but I wouldn't want to count on using a scram if I was going to try to keep the opponent precisely between 9 and 10 km.

Very interesting thread, very helpful to us newer guys.


Rail incursus is an AB thing.

Scram kiting


Your rail incursus is inferior to mine. Deal with it.

As to AB kiting frigs, you could do it out of scram range like my 2km/s 150 dps rail atron that can hit out to 20km and has a defensive web.This will also smash rail incursi.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
Dibblerette
Solitude-Industries
#11 - 2012-12-18 07:01:23 UTC
Don't forget, short range AB fits are very good at killing larger vessels due to the massive speed tank an AB frig can get. This makes it trivial to get under most guns, and without neuts, webs, or a well-stocked drone bay, you can settlie in and start chewing away.

Try a few of each, and see what suits your flying style..
Brisby of Nimh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2012-12-18 18:45:54 UTC
here are some example fits that can work well(amarr because that is what I fly)

Punisher
high
x3 dual pulse lasers, Nos
mid
AB,scram
low
DCU,x2 adaptive resistance plates,400mmplate
rigs
x3 trimark

basic bufffer fit for this ship makes it slow but once it gets under a ships guns and in a nice orbit using its Nos incase the enemy has a med nuet. this ship does not like enemy webs but has nice staying power for a frig gang.

executioner
high
you choose here
mids
MWD,point,med sheild extender
low
DCU,x2 speed mods

s speed tanker you can fit it with beams or pulses not really ment to kill target so much as to hold it in place till the calvery arrive and bring some real tackle in. or you can come up with your own scram kitting fit using AB,scram,web.

also a very important thing to know in a frig is how to sling shot an opponent into your scram range to turn off the MWD alot of kitting fits use.

well go out there and have fun
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#13 - 2012-12-18 21:12:45 UTC
Kiting incursus. This can complete with pretty much any other kitey frig but will die horribly if it get caught by a brawler.

[Incursus, Kiter]

Capacitor Power Relay II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II

Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script

150mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Thorium Charge S
150mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Thorium Charge S
150mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Thorium Charge S

Small Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Small Hybrid Locus Coordinator I
Small Hybrid Locus Coordinator I

Warrior II x1

Rail Brawler (anything in scram/web range is a brawler IMO) this kites at the edge of scram range. Pretty tough but fairly easy to beat with a brawling attack frig that goes alot faster and gets under the guns even if you swap the mag stab for a TE

[Incursus, brawler - rail]

Damage Control II
Small Armor Repairer II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

1MN Afterburner II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

125mm Railgun II, Javelin S
125mm Railgun II, Javelin S
125mm Railgun II, Javelin S

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Small Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I
Small Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I

Hobgoblin II x1

Dual Rep. Replies on your target not having a web. if it does then they can pretty much leave when they want. But like most amarr frigs can hit with decent dps to anywhere in scram range and tanks a load.

[Incursus, brawler - dual rep - blasters]

Small Armor Repairer II
Small Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

1MN Afterburner II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400

Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S

Small Processor Overclocking Unit I
Small Anti-Explosive Pump I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I

Hobgoblin II x1

More of a general brawler. Has cap issues if you are nos/neuted. Decent tank, decent rep, decent dps, decent range control. But TBH generally underperforms against the EFT 'paper' numbers would indicate.

[Incursus, Brawler - Balls to the wall]

Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Small Armor Repairer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

1MN Afterburner II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Null S

Small Processor Overclocking Unit I
Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Hybrid Ambit Extension I

Hobgoblin II x1


if you fit MWD and blasters to any boat you will be owned/escaped from by any scram/AB frig. in an equal scram/mwd dogfight then it boils down to players and the tactics used with their respective fits.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Dhaaka Vincatar
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2012-12-20 04:00:51 UTC
@Taoist Dragon:

Thanks for the example fits! Seems like Incursus is the new Rifter!

I see your point regarding MWD/blasters vs AB/scram, but at least in this case you only die if you chose to fight the AB/scram boat (or you've warped in at a bad spot).

In an AB/scram boat with Blasters, you instantly lose as soon as a MWD/long range boat catches you. I don't like the idea of sitting there impotently while they destroy you from 18km. At least if you had rails fit you could fight back a bit.
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#15 - 2012-12-20 11:38:07 UTC
Dhaaka Vincatar wrote:
@Taoist Dragon:

In an AB/scram boat with Blasters, you instantly lose as soon as a MWD/long range boat catches you. I don't like the idea of sitting there impotently while they destroy you from 18km. At least if you had rails fit you could fight back a bit.



Generally you are right and it is frustrating to slowly get picked apart by an opponent you are helpless to catch/run away from. But this is where situational awareness come into play. For example if he is 'orbiting' and you are on a station or in an asteroid belt try and 'bounce' him off a rock or the station or another nearby structure.

Not saying this will catch your opponent but at least you have a chance and aren't just sitting there waiting to pop!

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
galenwade
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-01-03 07:20:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Galenwade
Since everyone else has already given good info i will just throw in a different ship that is fun to fly.... the condor



Ok stop laughing it is ok now :)


Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II

Experimental 1MN Afterburner I
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Scrambler II

Rocket Launcher II
Rocket Launcher II
Rocket Launcher II
[Empty High slot]

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer


With some tweaking and or implants you can get a tech 2 shield extender in there.


I often recommend this ship to newer people because you dont have to worry about tracking .

Normal rockets have a range of around 8300m which you can use if you think brawling is a good idea. On the other hand if you come across something that has a lot of DPS up close but is slower than 1300m/s (approx) you switch out to javelin ammo which drops your dps a bit . You then kite them in Web range 10kms ( javelins hit out to around 11kms) and only get closer once you are going to win a DPS vs Tank Race and need to hit them with the scram .

Same works with the Executioner

Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Small Armor Repairer II

1MN Afterburner II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

Small Focused Pulse Laser II
Small Focused Pulse Laser II
Small Focused Pulse Laser II
[Empty High slot]

Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
Small Energy Ambit Extension I
Small Auxiliary Thrusters I


But with this fit you need scorch for that range, and you have very little buffer. So you need to watch , Tank,Cap, Range and transversal.(spelling Sad )