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Sephira Galamore

Inner Beard Society

Kvitravn.

Likes received: 385

#81 - 2012-12-17 13:44:03 UTC | Edited by: Sephira Galamore

Ivy Romanova wrote:

You forgot one key feature than EVE has but Star Citizen doesn't .
Time dilation.
Without time dilation , at 2000 people. The server would just DIE , if you remember what was said on the last CON.

I am not sure how much effect time dilation has on client gfx performance..
Client graphics are asynchroneous. Whereas the server works only in 1 second ticks your gameplay is more fluent. E.g. if you are moving, the client predicts your flightpath to allow a fluid gaming experience, whether the server is dilated or not.

The only perfomance gain could be effects that do not scale with TiDi. E.g. if an explosion is always displayed in the same speed, you have less explosions per second during TiDi.
But the ship and missile movements scale with TiDi, so the client just moves them slower (in space terms) but with as much frames per second. (So you effectively have more frames per server tick).

I myself don't have that much TiDi gameplay experience - maybe someone can tell how explosions / module effects etc behave during TiDi?
Last time I was in a large battle I had terrible gfx problems, despite all settings to low. Never encountered anything like that before, was pretty odd.. I am still surprised I got out there unpodded.

Cutter Isaacson

DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO

Likes received: 3,185

#82 - 2012-12-17 13:55:07 UTC | Edited by: Cutter Isaacson

Ivy Romanova wrote:

You forgot one key feature than EVE has but Star Citizen doesn't .
Time dilation.
Without time dilation , at 2000 people. The server would just DIE , if you remember what was said on the last CON.

Its a key problem with MMO that is proved to be solvable.
And in case you didn't notice.
The performance requirement of Cry Engine 3 is on par with the many other MUCH more popular games on the market.
Such as World in Conflict (2010) , Battlefield 3 (2011) , Assassin Creed 3 , Dishonored ,etc.

Don't underestimate the computers of the masses.

Pray tell, how many people partake in matches in any of the other games you just mentioned? Allow me to answer for you:

World in Conflict - Single player game with 16 person multiplayer support.

Battlefield 3 - Single player content with 64 player online multiplayer maps.

Assassins Creed 3 - Single player content with 8 player online content.

Dishonoured - Single player only.

As I already stated, not one of the games you mentioned is an MMO. Attempting to compare EVE to any of the above is the old apples and oranges routine and is thus doomed to fail.

And for clarification, as you appear to have missed my previous statement regarding the nature of Star Citizen, here is a quote lifted directly from the FAQ for said game:

Star Citizen FAQ wrote:

Is Star Citizen an MMO?

No! Star Citizen will take the best of all possible worlds, ranging from a permanent, persistent world similar to those found in MMOs to an offline, single player campaign like those found in the Wing Commander series. The game will include the option for private servers, like Freelancer, and will offer plenty of opportunities for players who are interested in modding the content. Unlike many games, none of these aspects is an afterthought: they all combine to form the core of the Star Citizen experience.

source cited: Star Citizen FAQ.

I highlighted the appropriate section for the purpose of clarity. You cannot, in any conceivable way, compare any of the games you have mentioned to EVE online and still have your argument hold up. EVE's unique position in the PC gaming market is well known and thus far uncontested, something that CCP has been, and remains to this day, rightly proud of. No matter which way you attempt to come at this argument you will lose.

You cannot draw comparisons against something that is provably unique thus, as per my previous statement, your argument is void.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.

Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 331
Fractal Muse Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic Likes received: 331	#83 - 2012-12-17 13:59:11 UTC 1 I love the graphics of EVE. They are gorgeous. My only issue is that the UI gets in the way of the beauty of the game but, happily, I remove the UI when I take screenshots.

Ivy Romanova

State Protectorate

Caldari State

Likes received: 1,133

#84 - 2012-12-17 14:07:26 UTC | Edited by: Ivy Romanova

Cutter Isaacson wrote:

Ivy Romanova wrote:

Star Citizen FAQ wrote:

The difference is , I'm not asking for an engine overhaul .
as proved by WoW, thats HIGHLY impractical, what I'm asking is improving the graphical effects and particle based fog and a more detailed model as a compromise between practicality and graphical evolution of today's world

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ ＤＡＭＮＴＨＩＳ SIGNATURE ＩＳＦＡＮＣY ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

Horrible Mining Corp 42
Dewa Cinta Horrible Mining Corp Likes received: 42	#85 - 2012-12-17 14:22:12 UTC 1 I would welcome a trinity3 engine.

Tactical Farmers. Pandemic Horde 9,004
Alpheias Tactical Farmers. Pandemic Horde Likes received: 9,004	#86 - 2012-12-17 14:24:10 UTC 1 This thread is stupid. Save your excitement, and comparisons, for when Star Citizen and/or Elite: Dangerous is out. Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord. Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.

Krixtal Icefluxor

INLAND EMPIRE Galactic

Likes received: 114,583

#87 - 2012-12-17 14:27:29 UTC | Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor

Considering the difference between now and when I first saw EVE in 2008, they have done an astounding job in the 4 years.

It looks absolutely nothing like it did that short time ago.

The graphics in the recommendations in the OP's post look too cartoonish for me and the EVE universe.

edit: typos. It's still early here. More coffee needed.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck." - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882


Ivy Romanova State Protectorate Caldari State Likes received: 1,133	#88 - 2012-12-17 14:27:33 UTC 1 Dewa Cinta wrote: I would welcome a trinity3 engine. me too ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ ＤＡＭＮＴＨＩＳ SIGNATURE ＩＳＦＡＮＣY ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

CCP BunnyVirus

C C P

C C P Alliance

Likes received: 1,409

#89 - 2012-12-17 14:29:10 UTC

Ivy Romanova wrote:

Baljos Arnjak wrote:

@Op. I sort pretty much agree with most of what you said. I think EvE is probably the best looking space game out there but they do need to up their game in certain areas.

My main beef with the graphics in EvE is the effects. They just need to go the extra mile and make sure that they have both visual and auditory oomph. They actually took a step backward in that department in Retribution as far as I'm concerned. The new explosions suck by HW2 standards, the particle system is technically better but the overall effect just doesn't compare.

In HW2, the life of a ship had a certain continuity. When a ship was built or undocking, it wasn't just popped out, it was launched. When a ship dies, it does so in a fashion consistent with it's mass and purpose. Fighters left a streaking fire trail leading to an explosion, bigger ships had secondary explosions and slowly rolled out of control before a devastating final explosion. The sound effect made you feel like the ship was being ripped apart from the inside or that you were fighting for your life in a spacebourne fur ball. I think CCP could learn a lot about battle immersion from HW2.

I totally agree with you about the community ship modeling contests! We definitely need more of them, even if there aren't any prizes other than the possibility of it being put in game. I've been working on a new Typhoon model off and on over the past couple of months and would probably submit it should they have another one. The creativeness of the community was one of the things that drew me to this game so long ago =)

Glad that creativity still thrives in this community :D
Maybe you should get in touch with the GMs with that model?
Better yet , lets wait and see if CCP actually read the forum posts :D

I read them

3D Artist

CCP BunnyVirus

C C P

C C P Alliance

Likes received: 1,409

#90 - 2012-12-17 14:30:37 UTC

Tykari wrote:

The problem with the graphics in an MMO is that often there are other considerations linked to it. Most notably performance when massive numbers are present. Top notch graphics are all well and good but in fleet battles and in trade hub systems where there are 100's of players for most people it would cause a lot of problems. So unless you happen to own a really high end system or spend most of your time alone in a system this really wouldn't do much good in the long run.

That said, CCP is updating the graphics and they're doing it one step at a time. The V3 project is mostly adjusting the way textures work on ships so that better effects can later be applied. And before those effects can happen every single object in the game needs to have those updates, which takes a lot of time considering the huge amount of assets this game has. The new lighting system they want to use is an example of this. As long as not everything has the V3 treatment they're not using it. Once that is done they can focus on dealing with ships whose poly counts are too low and so on. Same with corp logos and decalls. The V3 textures will open up the options of changing colors and so forth and they've already said that is something they do intend to do.

Give them time, they can only do so much at once.

Truth!!!!

3D Artist

Ivy Romanova

State Protectorate

Caldari State

Likes received: 1,133

#91 - 2012-12-17 14:30:59 UTC

CCP BunnyVirus wrote:

Ivy Romanova wrote:

Baljos Arnjak wrote:

Glad that creativity still thrives in this community :D
Maybe you should get in touch with the GMs with that model?
Better yet , lets wait and see if CCP actually read the forum posts :D

I read them

Then I'm sure you would agree in this time of revelation , its time for a revolution ?
Smile

Krixtal Icefluxor

INLAND EMPIRE Galactic

Likes received: 114,583

#92 - 2012-12-17 14:34:37 UTC

Ivy Romanova wrote:

My main beef with the graphics in EvE is the effects. They just need to go the extra mile and make sure that they have both visual and auditory oomph. They actually took a step backward in that department in Retribution as far as I'm concerned. The new explosions suck by HW2 standards, the particle system is technically better but the overall effect just doesn't compare.

In HW2, the life of a ship had a certain continuity. When a ship was built or undocking, it wasn't just popped out, it was launched. When a ship dies, it does so in a fashion consistent with it's mass and purpose. Fighters left a streaking fire trail leading to an explosion, bigger ships had secondary explosions and slowly rolled out of control before a devastating final explosion. The sound effect made you feel like the ship was being ripped apart from the inside or that you were fighting for your life in a spacebourne fur ball. I think CCP could learn a lot about battle immersion from HW2.

Then I'm sure you would agree in this time of revelation , its time for a revolution ?
Smile

Yes. All games should all look exactly alike.

(Not).

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck." - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Natsett Amuinn

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 2,232

#93 - 2012-12-17 14:35:18 UTC | Edited by: Natsett Amuinn

"I want it to be impossible to have a large number of ships to be rendered on screen while maintaining proper framerates without having to use a $1000 GPU."

That's all the OP is asking for.

Star Citizen has not mentioned a lot about how exactly the persistan part of the game world will work. I've never seen any metion of massive battles with hundrds of players involved, I think the guy making has said that they haven't even reached a point where they have a real plan for how the world dynamic will even work.

Homeworld wasn't an MMO, and I don't remember playing it with several hundred ship models shooting each other; nor did the game ever communicate with a server whenever I did something when I played it.

EVE, as far as MMO's go, is one of best looking ones on the market, and yeah, it was made in '03. CCP has recieved praise from gaming journalists and players alike over the fact that for a game of it's age it's still one of the best looking in the genre.

CCP does a great job of keeping EVE graphically relevant while still allowing many people to interact without causing huge performance issues. I think that the OP is being way over-critical.

Logix42

Taxation Damnation

Likes received: 200

#94 - 2012-12-17 14:35:50 UTC

I'm seeing two different threads of conversation here. One is graphics quality. The other is performance.

As far as graphics goes, no one has mentioned Tesselation yet. At fanfest last year they showed this video and asked if it was something players wanted them to pursue. This was a stand-alone test, not using the current Eve engine. You can read more details in this dev blog
So CCP is looking forward with graphics, don't worry too much on that front

As far performance goes... well that got a very brief mention at fanfest too but they had no map of how they're going to do it. (unless I missed something) In my personal opinion performance should take as high, or higher priority than improving graphics. Just my 0.02 ISK

Go beyond the edge of space... Explore

Ivy Romanova

State Protectorate

Caldari State

Likes received: 1,133

#95 - 2012-12-17 14:36:11 UTC

Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:

Ivy Romanova wrote:

Yes. All games should all look exactly alike.

(Not).

No one is asking for games that look exactly alike.
we are saying that its only logical for EVE to progress along the line of its own aesthetic merits and take cues from other franchises and products . Ranging from Star Trek to BSG to games as mentioned previously :P

Cutter Isaacson

DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO

Likes received: 3,185

#96 - 2012-12-17 14:36:25 UTC

Ivy Romanova wrote:

I clearly pointed out to you, as others have, that those improvements would require substantial hardware upgrades for all but the top 1-2% of EVE players. Do not forget that it is not just you that has to render these more complex models, but rather everyone who is in the same space as you and can see your ship.

While for the most part this may only be a handful of people if you live in a dead end backwater system, there are others who routinely see tens of hundreds of ships. The performance degradation inherent to rendering large numbers of high detail models makes such a thing impractical from a technical standpoint, not to mention suicidal in a customer retention sense.

You constantly made comparisons to both CryEngine 3 and the Frostbite engine, both of which are designed for use in singleplayer, or limited multiplayer games. They are not, nor will be in the foreseeable future, useful for games where it is possible (even if it is with time dilation) to have upwards of 1000 people all interacting within the same small space.

Reading back over your posts you have dismissed things such as shaders and tessellation, both of which can and have been used to great effect both in EVE and in many other games over the years. This leaves only one possible option; a complete engine overhaul, and yet you say this is not what you are asking for.

So, pray tell, what is it you wanted? Do you even know?

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.

Ivy Romanova

State Protectorate

Caldari State

Likes received: 1,133

#97 - 2012-12-17 14:40:23 UTC

Logix42 wrote:

Performance will always be an intrinsic problem to the Trinity Engine.
CPUs just can't MT as efficiently enough for the scale of battles in EVE and considering how Team Avatar, the team behind the Carbon Superstructure is disbanded, I'm not sure how things would go on the technical front .
But the art team is still here ,and its time to turn living into thriving .

Ivy Romanova

State Protectorate

Caldari State

Likes received: 1,133

#98 - 2012-12-17 14:43:16 UTC

Cutter Isaacson wrote:

Ivy Romanova wrote:

The tessellation and shaders upgrade are stated on the press conference, its planned by CCP , not me.
But what I want is more extensive graphical effects , note the starting post and the quotes .

Azrin Stella Oerndotte

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 118

#99 - 2012-12-17 14:43:23 UTC

My! A whole thread dedicated to graphical updates that are already in the pipeline since before fanfest with several videos showing it off.

The only thing I can't seem to remember is if they are planing to increase texture resolution, but then again I also remember reading somewhere that the model polygons is the limiter and that tessellation would solve this but that it would take a good couple of man years to finish (I can't find a link atm but it was less work than the trinity update).

That same video also show off future lightning effects that will come after (with?) the V3 project. There are also concept art of ships taking damage to noticeable shields as well as armor damage effects.

This is a big project and it will take time and should not be rushed, just be patient.