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THINK TANK -- ✓GRAPHICS Revolution! *NEW

First post
Author
Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#61 - 2012-12-17 11:18:50 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Ivy Romanova wrote:


but compared to the competitors of today, EVE is slowly falling behind.

Star Citizen is running on Cry Engine 3 for Christ sake.

and we are running on a puny Trinity2 engine.



That game isn't going to have hundreds to thousands of people in a single battle.


and when we do , we have to zoom all the way out to prevent EXTREME lagfest and the server have to go into time dilation in that system.

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ DAMN THIS    SIGNATURE    IS FANCY ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#62 - 2012-12-17 11:24:06 UTC
Ivy Romanova wrote:


and when we do , we have to zoom all the way out to prevent EXTREME lagfest and the server have to go into time dilation in that system.


I don't have to zoom out.
Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#63 - 2012-12-17 11:32:20 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Ivy Romanova wrote:


and when we do , we have to zoom all the way out to prevent EXTREME lagfest and the server have to go into time dilation in that system.


I don't have to zoom out.


then you're too spaced out .
try looking at a gas cloud , or fly into one.
It crunches on your frame rates BIG time .

I tend to take the testimonial of hundreds instead of one.

However, giving where credits are due , time dilation did help immensely on the lag issues.

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ DAMN THIS    SIGNATURE    IS FANCY ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

Pretty GuyYeah
#64 - 2012-12-17 11:33:29 UTC
While some ships look really great in my opinion, like the Guardian, the Vexor for instance looks as if it has been textured in Paint.

Post with your main.

A legend walks among us, a genius so significant he so dares to degrade himself as camouflage when you dispute.

Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2012-12-17 11:35:36 UTC
Ivy Romanova wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
Ivy Romanova wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
If you're actually comparing the current graphics to the ones from a game released in 2003 (the same year people started playing EVe by the way), then you probably need to pony up & buy new computer hardware. You can't really judge when you have everything set to 'low'.

its on high thx.
Try zooming onto your ship .
You'll see the problem.


Zooming in all way on your ship doesn't make for good gameplay. A couple of notches back and the ships look amazing. If nothing else they let you zoom in too far.

Put you face right up to any work of art and it looks pretty bad.


The first one I've met that says "if you punch your eyes out, you won't see the defects"
Stockholm syndrome victim no 5


Says the guy that punched reality out. Go to any art museum and put your face up to the painting and watch people mock you as you complain about the "defects".

Noone plays with their ship zoomed all the way in, so I don't see you point.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~

Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#66 - 2012-12-17 11:38:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Ivy Romanova
Sentamon wrote:
Ivy Romanova wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
Ivy Romanova wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
If you're actually comparing the current graphics to the ones from a game released in 2003 (the same year people started playing EVe by the way), then you probably need to pony up & buy new computer hardware. You can't really judge when you have everything set to 'low'.

its on high thx.
Try zooming onto your ship .
You'll see the problem.


Zooming in all way on your ship doesn't make for good gameplay. A couple of notches back and the ships look amazing. If nothing else they let you zoom in too far.

Put you face right up to any work of art and it looks pretty bad.


The first one I've met that says "if you punch your eyes out, you won't see the defects"
Stockholm syndrome victim no 5


Says the guy that punched reality out. Go to any art museum and put your face up to the painting and watch people mock you as you complain about the "defects".

Noone plays with their ship zoomed all the way in, so I don't see you point.


you don't have to zoom ALL the way in , just press reset camera and you can already see all the place they skipped corners

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ DAMN THIS    SIGNATURE    IS FANCY ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

ISVRaDa
Iberians
#67 - 2012-12-17 11:45:02 UTC  |  Edited by: ISVRaDa
Good thead, it´s always good to discuss about all features in a game like this.

Also I think the graphics are really good for a game liket this. You can´t expect to see an MMO with next-gen graphics. It´s like if someone is waiting for a MMOFPS (like Planetside) with Crysis at very high settings in the same world with 2000+ players online, it´s not possible today.

More high-poly models? maybe, but I have some experience in 3D modeling and for me in the videogame industry; shaders/textures > polygons

Anyway I´m agree with you in some others graphics features, like explosions. This game it´s about spaceships, and this game needs bigger and better explosions imo. Would be awesome to see a improvement this next year.

My personal graphic improvements list;

- Explosions and destruction visual improvements.
- More detailed ships and structures, texture/shaders work more than just add more polys.
- New lighting improvements (I love this already but it´s really important the lighting system in a game like EVE.
- Background textures (nebulas, etc) improvements. They did an awesome job with the nebulas but would be awesome to see more dynamic backgrounds.

[b][i]Immortality is only a word. All that exists can die. Every living thing has a weapon against which it has no defense. Time. Disease. Iron. Guilt.

¿ What can change the nature of a man ?[/i][/b]

Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#68 - 2012-12-17 11:47:44 UTC
ISVRaDa wrote:
Good thead, it´s always good to discuss about all features in a game like this.

Also I think the graphics are really good for a game liket this. You can´t expect to see an MMO with next-gen graphics. It´s like if someone is waiting for a MMOFPS (like Planetside) with Crysis at very high settings in the same world with 2000+ players online, it´s not possible today.

More high-poly models? maybe, but I have some experience in 3D modeling and for me in the videogame industry; shaders/textures > polygons

Anyway I´m agree with you in some others graphics features, like explosions. This game it´s about spaceships, and this game needs bigger and better explosions imo. Would be awesome to see a improvement this next year.


true, but textures only get you so far .
its like bloom and motion blur , fancy , but mostly just hide all the defects and lazy half finished jobs.
Ever looked at Crysis 2 without the bloom ?

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ DAMN THIS    SIGNATURE    IS FANCY ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

ISVRaDa
Iberians
#69 - 2012-12-17 11:59:04 UTC  |  Edited by: ISVRaDa
Ivy Romanova wrote:
ISVRaDa wrote:
Good thead, it´s always good to discuss about all features in a game like this.

Also I think the graphics are really good for a game liket this. You can´t expect to see an MMO with next-gen graphics. It´s like if someone is waiting for a MMOFPS (like Planetside) with Crysis at very high settings in the same world with 2000+ players online, it´s not possible today.

More high-poly models? maybe, but I have some experience in 3D modeling and for me in the videogame industry; shaders/textures > polygons

Anyway I´m agree with you in some others graphics features, like explosions. This game it´s about spaceships, and this game needs bigger and better explosions imo. Would be awesome to see a improvement this next year.


true, but textures only get you so far .
its like bloom and motion blur , fancy , but mostly just hide all the defects and lazy half finished jobs.
Ever looked at Crysis 2 without the bloom ?


Right but I was not talking about Crysis 2 (never impressed by this game when released). Crysis 1 at max settings its still today an awesome next-gen game. Nowadays there is not any MMO with similar graphics, and Crysis 1 is from 2007. It´s all about hardware/software limitations when we talk about MMO games.

Anyway I´m not a big fan of blooms effects :)

[b][i]Immortality is only a word. All that exists can die. Every living thing has a weapon against which it has no defense. Time. Disease. Iron. Guilt.

¿ What can change the nature of a man ?[/i][/b]

Lipbite
Express Hauler
#70 - 2012-12-17 12:01:23 UTC
The only graphic I see in EVE is space and stations. Dark ships on dark background are simply invisible most of the time. During fleet battles I can guess there are ships on field only if they are in brackets or shooting (by lasers and missile/bullet traces).

OP is correct - EVE graphic quality is questionable to say the least. Boost, please.
Manar Detri
#71 - 2012-12-17 12:10:18 UTC
Ivy Romanova wrote:


same goes for mine

I never asked for an engine update , i just asked for more focus on the graphics instead of fussing up the mechanics even further.
They fixed bounty.
GREAT
They fixed the bugs!
good
They added new ships.
AWESOME.

Can we start adding in the missing effects now?

Its like you guys are suffering the Stockholm syndrome or something :P


So you are asking for more detailed models for ships. Now, englighten me, how much is your fps with max settings when theres 4 or more full fleets on the grid and fully visible? :)
Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#72 - 2012-12-17 12:17:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ivy Romanova
Manar Detri wrote:
Ivy Romanova wrote:


same goes for mine

I never asked for an engine update , i just asked for more focus on the graphics instead of fussing up the mechanics even further.
They fixed bounty.
GREAT
They fixed the bugs!
good
They added new ships.
AWESOME.

Can we start adding in the missing effects now?

Its like you guys are suffering the Stockholm syndrome or something :P


So you are asking for more detailed models for ships. Now, englighten me, how much is your fps with max settings when theres 4 or more full fleets on the grid and fully visible? :)


I zoom out and then I get 50 fps with server dilation
zoom in, the CPU bottleneck kills it down to 30fps

But then again, GIANT fleet battles are quite rare , and the server dilation does an awesome job at controlling the performance issues on both the host and client sides.

HOWEVER , in terms of everyday operations ,the jarring graphical incompetency is not one you can simply dismiss off.

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ DAMN THIS    SIGNATURE    IS FANCY ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

Aracimia Wolfe
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2012-12-17 12:50:25 UTC
Ivy Romanova wrote:
Manar Detri wrote:
Ivy Romanova wrote:


same goes for mine

I never asked for an engine update , i just asked for more focus on the graphics instead of fussing up the mechanics even further.
They fixed bounty.
GREAT
They fixed the bugs!
good
They added new ships.
AWESOME.

Can we start adding in the missing effects now?

Its like you guys are suffering the Stockholm syndrome or something :P


So you are asking for more detailed models for ships. Now, englighten me, how much is your fps with max settings when theres 4 or more full fleets on the grid and fully visible? :)


I zoom out and then I get 50 fps with server dilation
zoom in, the CPU bottleneck kills it down to 30fps

But then again, GIANT fleet battles are quite rare , and the server dilation does an awesome job at controlling the performance issues on both the host and client sides.

HOWEVER , in terms of everyday operations ,the jarring graphical incompetency is not one you can simply dismiss off.


How much time do you spend in Null? Not a dig just a question. If you want to see larger fights thats where they'll be.

Also I think this entire thread smells of you going "Hey heres a great idea everybody. Upgrade your graphics card or gtfo" Eve is still am amazing looking game. Graphically it blows away the majority of other MMO's out there. Why are you comparing an MMO that requires support for multiple client types and capabilities with Crysis2 which is a single player game made by a development team who want to burn your system out on low detail?

TiDi I agree is teh win. But I think you're being somewhat unrealistic

Kill it with Fire!

Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#74 - 2012-12-17 12:55:45 UTC
Aracimia Wolfe wrote:
Ivy Romanova wrote:
Manar Detri wrote:
Ivy Romanova wrote:


same goes for mine

I never asked for an engine update , i just asked for more focus on the graphics instead of fussing up the mechanics even further.
They fixed bounty.
GREAT
They fixed the bugs!
good
They added new ships.
AWESOME.

Can we start adding in the missing effects now?

Its like you guys are suffering the Stockholm syndrome or something :P


So you are asking for more detailed models for ships. Now, englighten me, how much is your fps with max settings when theres 4 or more full fleets on the grid and fully visible? :)


I zoom out and then I get 50 fps with server dilation
zoom in, the CPU bottleneck kills it down to 30fps

But then again, GIANT fleet battles are quite rare , and the server dilation does an awesome job at controlling the performance issues on both the host and client sides.

HOWEVER , in terms of everyday operations ,the jarring graphical incompetency is not one you can simply dismiss off.


How much time do you spend in Null? Not a dig just a question. If you want to see larger fights thats where they'll be.

Also I think this entire thread smells of you going "Hey heres a great idea everybody. Upgrade your graphics card or gtfo" Eve is still am amazing looking game. Graphically it blows away the majority of other MMO's out there. Why are you comparing an MMO that requires support for multiple client types and capabilities with Crysis2 which is a single player game made by a development team who want to burn your system out on low detail?

TiDi I agree is teh win. But I think you're being somewhat unrealistic


I'm not comparing it to crysis .
I am comparing it to a game from 2003. Homeworld 2 .
And the upcoming MMO called Star Citizen, with similar internet spaceship pew pew themed combat. Which is running on CRY ENGINE 3

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ DAMN THIS    SIGNATURE    IS FANCY ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#75 - 2012-12-17 13:19:52 UTC
Ivy Romanova wrote:
This year has been a year of progress for EVE.
Especially true since the release of Retribution.
Crimewatch, new missile effects , new ships ,rebalancing , new clothing ,etc.

However , there is still a LOOOOoong way to go.
And when we look at a game from 2003 .

Homeworld 2



Now obviously, they are quite hideous for today's standards , but what they have which something EVE could learn is the variety.

We are just catching up to the graphical effects of a game from 9 years ago and in certain areas, such as the destruction mechanics ,gradual deterioration,aesthetics ,and surprisingly , model polycounts .....we are still lagging behind.

Baljos Arnjak wrote:
@.....
In HW2, the life of a ship had a certain continuity. When a ship was built or undocking, it wasn't just popped out, it was launched. When a ship dies, it does so in a fashion consistent with it's mass and purpose. Fighters left a streaking fire trail leading to an explosion, bigger ships had secondary explosions and slowly rolled out of control before a devastating final explosion. The sound effect made you feel like the ship was being ripped apart from the inside or that you were fighting for your life in a spacebourne fur ball. I think CCP could learn a lot about battle immersion from HW2
..........





Now lets look at another game from starship season 2012
Star Citizen



The contender for the throne of Internet Spaceship pew pew.
A threat to the existence of EVE, but also the driver of competition.

We need WAY more community ship model events and much faster pace in updates.

Not on the mechanics ,and not on catering to the carebear whiners .
They're working.
The game aesthetically is good, but we just need to fill in the pot holes.
Lets start polishing the graphics before working on the endless list of "things that would be nice to have "


*EDIT:
For some strange reason , the mentally challenged think graphics and gameplay is a zero-gain situation.
EVE already has good gameplay :P and its groundwork is solid
What hurt does it do if we start working on the graphics ?



It should be noted that there is also a rather gigantic difference between EVE and both the games you mentioned.

EVE is an MMO, the other two are not.

Homeworld 2 was ostensibly a single player game with the ability to have a maximum of 5 people in multiplayer mode. Star Citizen will also ostensibly be a single player game, with possibly the ability to have up to 100 people on field at once, and even then only some time in the distant future.

Your comparisons are flawed and your argument negated. Having graphics with a detail level as high as that expected from Star Citizen in a game where 2000 people can be in the same place at the same time would prove impossible for all but the top 1 or 2% of PC owners to render without effectively dragging their system performance to zero.

I award you 0/10.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.

To mare
Advanced Technology
#76 - 2012-12-17 13:22:40 UTC
every time CCP update graphics we lose some unique ship design for other ship that all look the same
also space camo
Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#77 - 2012-12-17 13:24:44 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Ivy Romanova wrote:
This year has been a year of progress for EVE.
Especially true since the release of Retribution.
Crimewatch, new missile effects , new ships ,rebalancing , new clothing ,etc.

However , there is still a LOOOOoong way to go.
And when we look at a game from 2003 .

Homeworld 2



Now obviously, they are quite hideous for today's standards , but what they have which something EVE could learn is the variety.

We are just catching up to the graphical effects of a game from 9 years ago and in certain areas, such as the destruction mechanics ,gradual deterioration,aesthetics ,and surprisingly , model polycounts .....we are still lagging behind.

Baljos Arnjak wrote:
@.....
In HW2, the life of a ship had a certain continuity. When a ship was built or undocking, it wasn't just popped out, it was launched. When a ship dies, it does so in a fashion consistent with it's mass and purpose. Fighters left a streaking fire trail leading to an explosion, bigger ships had secondary explosions and slowly rolled out of control before a devastating final explosion. The sound effect made you feel like the ship was being ripped apart from the inside or that you were fighting for your life in a spacebourne fur ball. I think CCP could learn a lot about battle immersion from HW2
..........





Now lets look at another game from starship season 2012
Star Citizen



The contender for the throne of Internet Spaceship pew pew.
A threat to the existence of EVE, but also the driver of competition.

We need WAY more community ship model events and much faster pace in updates.

Not on the mechanics ,and not on catering to the carebear whiners .
They're working.
The game aesthetically is good, but we just need to fill in the pot holes.
Lets start polishing the graphics before working on the endless list of "things that would be nice to have "


*EDIT:
For some strange reason , the mentally challenged think graphics and gameplay is a zero-gain situation.
EVE already has good gameplay :P and its groundwork is solid
What hurt does it do if we start working on the graphics ?



It should be noted that there is also a rather gigantic difference between EVE and both the games you mentioned.

EVE is an MMO, the other two are not.

Homeworld 2 was ostensibly a single player game with the ability to have a maximum of 5 people in multiplayer mode. Star Citizen will also ostensibly be a single player game, with possibly the ability to have up to 100 people on field at once, and even then only some time in the distant future.

Your comparisons are flawed and your argument negated. Having graphics with a detail level as high as that expected from Star Citizen in a game where 2000 people can be in the same place at the same time would prove impossible for all but the top 1 or 2% of PC owners to render without effectively dragging their system performance to zero.

I award you 0/10.



You forgot one key feature than EVE has but Star Citizen doesn't .
Time dilation.
Without time dilation , at 2000 people. The server would just DIE , if you remember what was said on the last CON.

Its a key problem with MMO that is proved to be solvable.
And in case you didn't notice.
The performance requirement of Cry Engine 3 is on par with the many other MUCH more popular games on the market.
Such as World in Conflict (2010) , Battlefield 3 (2011) , Assassin Creed 3 , Dishonored ,etc.

Don't underestimate the computers of the masses.

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ DAMN THIS    SIGNATURE    IS FANCY ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

Manar Detri
#78 - 2012-12-17 13:30:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Manar Detri
Ivy Romanova wrote:


I'm not comparing it to crysis .
I am comparing it to a game from 2003. Homeworld 2 .
And the upcoming MMO called Star Citizen, with similar internet spaceship pew pew themed combat. Which is running on CRY ENGINE 3


Ok, i'll make this even more clear for you, the reason "tricks" as you call them are used is due to it enabling easy graphical settings. If you go out and make models with more faces, those models will stay, and you can't do anything about it.

To sum this up even more for you, ccp is not interested in ditching a huge player base just because they don't have a top notch rig. Does this make sense to you? So they will use "tricks" to make eve look better, and in years to come, when the lowest end computers used to play eve have upgraded, they'll enhance models. They are already updating effects and didn't they just slap new explosions ? Also what comes to hull damage effects, who cares, you plow through target hull in seconds, and for that the fire effects work just great. I'm not going to include capitals that take bit longer in hull because you rarely see them, as you said you rarely even see big fights.

ps. you can't compare bf crysis and such to eve, they don't have as many models in view as eve does, not even nearly.
Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#79 - 2012-12-17 13:40:04 UTC
Manar Detri wrote:
Ivy Romanova wrote:


I'm not comparing it to crysis .
I am comparing it to a game from 2003. Homeworld 2 .
And the upcoming MMO called Star Citizen, with similar internet spaceship pew pew themed combat. Which is running on CRY ENGINE 3


Ok, i'll make this even more clear for you, the reason "tricks" as you call them are used is due to it enabling easy graphical settings. If you go out and make models with more faces, those models will stay, and you can't do anything about it.

To sum this up even more for you, ccp is not interested in ditching a huge player base just because they don't have a top notch rig. Does this make sense to you? So they will use "tricks" to make eve look better, and in years to come, when the lowest end computers used to play eve have upgraded, they'll enhance models. They are already updating effects and didn't they just slap new explosions ? Also what comes to hull damage effects, who cares, you plow through target hull in seconds, and for that the fire effects work just great. I'm not going to include capitals that take bit longer in hull because you rarely see them, as you said you rarely even see big fights.

ps. you can't compare bf crysis and such to eve, they don't have as many models in view as eve does, not even nearly.


There is always the option to turn the settings down and reduce effects quality, to solve the problem you raised.

Should CCP sacrifice the well being of the masses for the few who chose to stay behind in 2006?
We are seeing changes coming at the speed of the Vatican ,you think thats the pace CCP should take when the world progresses by the second?

As SSD ,8GB+ DDR3 ,gaming orientated hardware and 64-bit OS becomes the mainstream for today's platforms.
its time to welcome the future , and exploit the new found opportunity!

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ DAMN THIS    SIGNATURE    IS FANCY ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

Thomas Gore
Blackfyre Enterprise
#80 - 2012-12-17 13:41:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Thomas Gore
While I think EVE's spaceship models look pretty, the thing that EVE graphically really needs is what I'd like to call "oomph".

First on my list are explosions and wrecks. When a 200 meter long (let alone a 18km long), 200 tonne spaceship goes boom, it needs to go BOOM. Not just "pop" a bright yellow and disappear. I'm talking about smaller internal explosions, followed by a big explosion that will literally rip the ship apart and send smoking pieces of it flying around. The actual wreck can be the tiny lump of wires it's now for purposes of looting, so the floating wrecks can be just visuals if you don't like changing actual gameplay mechanics.

Second are hits on ships / structures. Give an effect when a hit is absorbed by the shields, a glowing yellow/blue/red/we part of a sphere, fading out soon after the hit. You've all seen Star Trek. You know what I'm talking about. Also, add randomization on the locations where the hits are drawn on the target. It's just super silly to see the shots hit the exact same singular point in the target, every time. I know there are a few options per target, but it needs to be much more random. Also add more effect to turret hits. Missile impacts are the way to go. They look sweet, especially the torps.

Third, make the ship movement more fluid. Currently they jerk and turn around their hard-fixed pivot point and look absolutely ridiculous. Analoguous to this, concentrate on warping and jumping. Look at Mass Effect 3 if you want to find a way to make jumping gates look cool. Also, why do ships often (but not always) stop for a second before entering warp?

Start with those and I'll give you more work to do after that. You don't even want me to start with the fact that nothing in EVE is actually solid.

I agree with the OP, EVE needs a lot of work to really look good.