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Risk v Reward, high sec v low and null sec

Author
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#81 - 2012-12-16 19:26:11 UTC
foxnod wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
So what if you nerf hi sec refining to null sec rates? High SP characters like me will still reprocess at or close to 100% rate while newbies will get an huge shaft.

Think again.

We can always rebalance the refining skill tree to fix that issue.

It's a trick, they don't care about the newbies.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Exprecia
Almirante Alacran
#82 - 2012-12-16 19:32:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Exprecia
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Exprecia wrote:
IF IT AINT BROKEN DONT FIX IT. Bunch of haters from low and null sec. Im from Hisec, love it here. You hate me cause im "making more isk" than low and null sec players? Easy fix, come to high sec and do the same im doing. Cant do it cause your standing is so bad cause of all them Hisec ganks? Not Hisec peeps problem.

Hahahaha what. Ganking alts and money making alts are different, you silly GD poster.


Goons will always be goons. Go kiss some CCP's a$$ :)
foxnod
Perkone
Caldari State
#83 - 2012-12-16 19:37:00 UTC
Not true, there are many buffs to null industry that have next to nothing to do with high sec. Station factory slots being the most glaring. Getting off topic here.



[/quote]


Actually most buffs can't work without nerfing highsec.

Refine rates.....can't buff beyond the 100% you get in highsec.

Fees for installing jobs.....can't create a taxable base for them in nullsec without adjusting highsec fees upward.

Anoms & ratting..........As much as I would like to make 250mil per hr out here in null with a tengu, that probably wouldn't be good for the game's economy. So once again highsec will have to be balanced there.

Transport.............highsec has a huge advantage in that you can autopilot your freightor into jita to pick up your mins and autopilot back and install your job. in your all-in-one station

POS's.......highsec POS's are almost immune to a wardec even if the owner is semi-comatose. In low/null, our warning is 30 dreads dropping on the tower.




foxnod
Perkone
Caldari State
#84 - 2012-12-16 19:40:57 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
foxnod wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
So what if you nerf hi sec refining to null sec rates? High SP characters like me will still reprocess at or close to 100% rate while newbies will get an huge shaft.

Think again.

We can always rebalance the refining skill tree to fix that issue.

It's a trick, they don't care about the newbies.



If they really cared about the newbies, they'd keep their Orcas and hulks out of the newbie systems so the genuine new players could have a chance at getting some decent ore.
Randolph Rothstein
whatever corp.
#85 - 2012-12-16 19:43:43 UTC
foxnod wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
foxnod wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
So what if you nerf hi sec refining to null sec rates? High SP characters like me will still reprocess at or close to 100% rate while newbies will get an huge shaft.

Think again.

We can always rebalance the refining skill tree to fix that issue.

It's a trick, they don't care about the newbies.



If they really cared about the newbies, they'd keep their Orcas and hulks out of the newbie systems so the genuine new players could have a chance at getting some decent ore.


but then they would loose all the multiboxing botters
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#86 - 2012-12-16 19:44:58 UTC
Randolph Rothstein wrote:
foxnod wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
foxnod wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
So what if you nerf hi sec refining to null sec rates? High SP characters like me will still reprocess at or close to 100% rate while newbies will get an huge shaft.

Think again.

We can always rebalance the refining skill tree to fix that issue.

It's a trick, they don't care about the newbies.

If they really cared about the newbies, they'd keep their Orcas and hulks out of the newbie systems so the genuine new players could have a chance at getting some decent ore.

but then they would loose all the multiboxing botters

Now now, the uberhulks mining veld in the newbie systems are just making use of the resources, the newbies certainly can't mine them all clean in an hour or so...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Randolph Rothstein
whatever corp.
#87 - 2012-12-16 19:53:53 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

Now now, the uberhulks mining veld in the newbie systems are just making use of the resources, the newbies certainly can't mine them all clean in an hour or so...


newbies mine scordite,not veld

its 9 hours past downtime,there are still a lot of veld asteroids in belts...scordite will vanish in about 3-4 hours after reset

btw: i have seen maybe two or three hulk+orca in a week,so i doubt its a big problem
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#88 - 2012-12-16 20:50:41 UTC
foxnod wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
foxnod wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
So what if you nerf hi sec refining to null sec rates? High SP characters like me will still reprocess at or close to 100% rate while newbies will get an huge shaft.

Think again.

We can always rebalance the refining skill tree to fix that issue.

It's a trick, they don't care about the newbies.



If they really cared about the newbies, they'd keep their Orcas and hulks out of the newbie systems so the genuine new players could have a chance at getting some decent ore.


Because mining thumb sized roids is seriously what an Orca fleet is after. Roll
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#89 - 2012-12-16 20:53:22 UTC
Randolph Rothstein wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:

Now now, the uberhulks mining veld in the newbie systems are just making use of the resources, the newbies certainly can't mine them all clean in an hour or so...


newbies mine scordite,not veld

its 9 hours past downtime,there are still a lot of veld asteroids in belts...scordite will vanish in about 3-4 hours after reset

btw: i have seen maybe two or three hulk+orca in a week,so i doubt its a big problem


Don't let them miss on their mental masturbations.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#90 - 2012-12-16 21:35:21 UTC
TharOkha wrote:

The "risk" of low/null you pointing at is player driven.


but the players dont want risk
they want to farm FW LP's, not fight.
they want to farm -1 belt rats for isk, not fight
they want to farm 10/10 complexes, not fight


WilliamMays
Stuffs Inc.
#91 - 2012-12-16 23:45:53 UTC
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:
You can't just think in terms of risk vs reward.
....
Its a triangle; risk, reward, fun.
...
I want fun when I play a game. Fun and relaxation and not having to watch my back all the time.

You have to take that into account. Risk vs reward is 2 dimensional. Eve is a 3 dimensional game. And its not poker. Well, I guess it would be if I could sell ISK...


Never really thought of it as a triangle, but the fun is one of the rewards. I agree, eve needs more fun all around as part of balancing it out.




ashley Eoner wrote:
Yeah it's always cracked me up to read bittervets brag about how hardcore and awesome they are because EVE is "cold and HARD". It's like these people live in a privileged bubble safe from the realities of life.

Want to see real cold and hard? Move to Somalia...


Bubble safe? When was the last time you put 20 bil at risk for your daily activity? When was the last time one of your most expensive ships got tackled, by an "ally"? All part of my daily risk, which I am willing to take. As I have said before, I want more risk in null than I take now. It needs to be risk that can be mitigated, overcome, and provide rewards, not neccesarily increased isk.



Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
So what if you nerf hi sec refining to null sec rates? High SP characters like me will still reprocess at or close to 100% rate while newbies will get an huge shaft.


Don't bother messing with the refine rates, just change the contents of ores. That's actually my next post that I'm still writing.



Exprecia wrote:
IF IT AINT BROKEN DONT FIX IT. Bunch of haters from low and null sec. Im from Hisec, love it here. You hate me cause im "making more isk" than low and null sec players? Easy fix, come to high sec and do the same im doing. Cant do it cause your standing is so bad cause of all them Hisec ganks? Not Hisec peeps problem. Dont try to force me or anyone who likes being in Hisec to like yall playstyle, that is wrong on many levels. CCP, listen to all of us that are using your product, not just to a selected group of people, that is not professional. Good day.


Im hating? I'm posting about what I believe many people misunderstand and overlook.

more isk? you made 100 bil since may? grats Cool

I've never said you should have to move to low/null to continue having fun in eve. I'm saying that people need to consider all of what goes into doing something, and all of what they get out of it, not just time in the belt/plex and how much isk the recieve.



Tarvos Telesto wrote:
No risk at all in both places, null space and empire, if you are smart enough you never risk anything.

As carebear you can be safe in empire while run mission, trade, and even mining in general if you pay atention.
If you are null citizen you are safe to, here no risk, most of null space systems are empty or with very low visists, people who take control over region are immune form any agresion while plexes-rating in 0.0.

In both cases risk is minimal, in most cases people lose own stuf at own wish, here no risk while people are on earning ISK...
The risk factor is almost zero.

Whole risk vs rewad in EvE is more myth than true aspect in this game, same like small scale or - solo pvp( in general) both things are myth.


It is true that I have never lost a mission running ship in empire. I lost 2 ratting ravens back in the day, as a null noob ratter. I have never lost a mining ship in null; only because they are in the POS as soon as hostiles show up.

You're still not looking at the big picture, the extras that go into allowing me that time where I am able to mine.

null space is mostly empty? in three years of living in null in five different regions, I rarely see a day where I am not interrupted at least once, normally 2-3 times. Sometimes it's only 5 minutes, sometimes its the rest of the day.
WilliamMays
Stuffs Inc.
#92 - 2012-12-16 23:46:33 UTC

Kitty Bear wrote:
WilliamMays wrote:

High sec should be "safer" but with less rewards, pushing players into riskier areas to gain better rewards


Short response --> No.

Hisec does not need to made safer, ships explode for a variety of reasons and that is as it should be.

"pushing players into" ....... I'm not sure you even understand what you typed there.



When a game mechanic forces the players along a specific path it's called a "Themepark Game Mechanic"
CCP give us content, we decide if we want to play with it. This is called a "Sandbox Game Mechanic"

understand yet ??????


I didn't say safer than current high sec; I mean "safer" as compared to other areas.

Yes, I understand exactly what I typed there. So sorry if the word push offends you. I never said CCP needs to tell you where to go next, or what you should be doing, holding your hand along the way. EVE is a sandbox, defined by what CCP puts into the different areas. What's in the different areas, what we have to do to make use of it, what we get out of it, is how we decide what areas we like to play in. These changes "push" you to decide one way or another based on how you feel about the parameters.



Kitty Bear wrote:
TharOkha wrote:

The "risk" of low/null you pointing at is player driven.


but the players dont want risk
they want to farm FW LP's, not fight.
they want to farm -1 belt rats for isk, not fight
they want to farm 10/10 complexes, not fight


exactly, which is why I am saying carebearing in the face of risk needs to be more viable, and necessary.

"Push" players to want to take more risk, and watch the glorious battles that follow. This requires some of the current game mechanics to change. Carebearing needs to be more sustained, where you lose something if you stop right away when the risk goes up. Also, the ratter/miner needs to be able to survive long enough for reinforcements to arrive (this is mostly possible now, if ships are fit properly for the situation)

I understand that not all players will adjust, some will always safe up as soon as a single t1 frigate is in local. But some will say "I've been working on this for 20-30 minutes, so close to finishing, that bad guy cant catch me yet, I can finish in time....oh $%*t I am tackled, HALP!!" Now his friends come along to bail him out, the hostile lights a cyno and we have an escalating battle, which can go on and on. All because game mechanics made a player decide to continue taking risk.


Zaraz Zaraz
Zontik Paraphernalia Inc
#93 - 2012-12-17 00:00:47 UTC
WilliamMays wrote:
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:
You can't just think in terms of risk vs reward.
....
Its a triangle; risk, reward, fun.
...
I want fun when I play a game. Fun and relaxation and not having to watch my back all the time.

You have to take that into account. Risk vs reward is 2 dimensional. Eve is a 3 dimensional game. And its not poker. Well, I guess it would be if I could sell ISK...


Never really thought of it as a triangle, but the fun is one of the rewards. I agree, eve needs more fun all around as part of balancing it out.


Its just, when I read your posts and every similar post I've seen, the entire 'reward' that you write about is in-game reward in terms of LP or ISK. These kinds of post always seem to miss the whole point of playing games. Some people get so obsessed with the in-game rewards that an MMO offers (as a way of producing the addiction that the MMO producer needs to keep the cashflow up) that they forget about having fun. I guess similar to drug addiction... People don't smoke tobacco because it gets them high (it did in the beginning, very slightly); they smoke it so they can feel normal.

WilliamMays
Stuffs Inc.
#94 - 2012-12-17 00:15:42 UTC  |  Edited by: WilliamMays
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:
WilliamMays wrote:
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:
You can't just think in terms of risk vs reward.
....
Its a triangle; risk, reward, fun.
...
I want fun when I play a game. Fun and relaxation and not having to watch my back all the time.

You have to take that into account. Risk vs reward is 2 dimensional. Eve is a 3 dimensional game. And its not poker. Well, I guess it would be if I could sell ISK...


Never really thought of it as a triangle, but the fun is one of the rewards. I agree, eve needs more fun all around as part of balancing it out.


Its just, when I read your posts and every similar post I've seen, the entire 'reward' that you write about is in-game reward in terms of LP or ISK. These kinds of post always seem to miss the whole point of playing games. Some people get so obsessed with the in-game rewards that an MMO offers (as a way of producing the addiction that the MMO producer needs to keep the cashflow up) that they forget about having fun. I guess similar to drug addiction... People don't smoke tobacco because it gets them high (it did in the beginning, very slightly); they smoke it so they can feel normal.




Its actually the same in poker; not every player is there to make money, some have zero intention of turning a profit. Some are there to drink and have fun with friends, playing a game they know is impossible for even the best players to beat. Some are there just to make bad plays, and hope to get lucky and screw someone, so they can watch you get mad about losing to a bad player, hello goons. Some are there with the sole intention of being a ...... jerk ( a kind, PC word, which doesn't get censored ) to people that take their money; this is their twisted version of fun.

Its all about what they put in, and what they get out.
Toshiroma McDiesel
Lupus Draconis
The Lost Drone Society
#95 - 2012-12-17 00:27:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Toshiroma McDiesel
I've noticed that some people don't seem to understand is that any nerf to hi sec mining will probably increase profit for the miners themselves. Anything that drives that price of Tirt even higher is going to make us more money per load, and we well pull it in as fast as we can. Everynow and again someone complains that the value of Hi Sec ores is out of sync with Null and Low ores. And they seem to think that less mining in HI Sec will somehow fix this Lol

(heck, alot of people complaining about how the price of bare ship hulls has doubled or more in the last year, there is still one guy posting in GD here that thinks they are still too cheap, and he can't make a profit making them, his answer to that is to nerf hi sec industry Shocked )

I"m not really the Evil One, I'm just his answering service.

Xavier Hasberin
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2012-12-17 01:14:08 UTC
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:
WilliamMays wrote:
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:
You can't just think in terms of risk vs reward.
....
Its a triangle; risk, reward, fun.
...
I want fun when I play a game. Fun and relaxation and not having to watch my back all the time.

You have to take that into account. Risk vs reward is 2 dimensional. Eve is a 3 dimensional game. And its not poker. Well, I guess it would be if I could sell ISK...


Never really thought of it as a triangle, but the fun is one of the rewards. I agree, eve needs more fun all around as part of balancing it out.


Its just, when I read your posts and every similar post I've seen, the entire 'reward' that you write about is in-game reward in terms of LP or ISK. These kinds of post always seem to miss the whole point of playing games. Some people get so obsessed with the in-game rewards that an MMO offers (as a way of producing the addiction that the MMO producer needs to keep the cashflow up) that they forget about having fun. I guess similar to drug addiction... People don't smoke tobacco because it gets them high (it did in the beginning, very slightly); they smoke it so they can feel normal.



Don't know about the smoking thing, but I can attest that this game does bring out the min/maxer in spades. Tell them you run with an inferior ship, an inferior setup, or that you're not worried about PLEXing your account, and watch virtual steam escape their avatar's ears.
Erika Bronz
Nidaros Fritidsforening
#97 - 2012-12-17 03:20:42 UTC
As I see it, risk is just a mathematical question. In it's simplicity: risk = threat / volume.

Want to remove risk? Make all nullsec to be lowsec, then create huge new nullsec outside. Maybe infinite. Nullsec could be selfgenerating by exploration, and infrastructure all player buildt and fueled. The most dangerous place would now perhaps be highsec.

Not saying it should be like that. Just giving you a different angle than boost this, nerf that, stop ruin my gameplay argue.

I have lived in lowsec, and believe it is working as intended. You learn stuff, get friends and invitation to nullsec. Alternatively, you get attention, it gets hard and then the forementioned. Rewards are there, any playstyle you choose, except stupid.
ashley Eoner
#98 - 2012-12-17 11:19:26 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
WilliamMays wrote:

ashley Eoner wrote:
Yeah it's always cracked me up to read bittervets brag about how hardcore and awesome they are because EVE is "cold and HARD". It's like these people live in a privileged bubble safe from the realities of life.

Want to see real cold and hard? Move to Somalia...


Bubble safe? When was the last time you put 20 bil at risk for your daily activity? When was the last time one of your most expensive ships got tackled, by an "ally"? All part of my daily risk, which I am willing to take. As I have said before, I want more risk in null than I take now. It needs to be risk that can be mitigated, overcome, and provide rewards, not neccesarily increased isk.

Dude I live in Highsec/lowsec these days so I don't even have nor have I ever seen a figure as large as 20 billion isk (was never part of the huge sea of blue that exists). You nullbears are so isolated from risk that you think everyone can earn 20 billion like it's nothing.

Second off you're still not hard and you're still not risking anything.. You're crying about digital items that have absolutely no meaning in life. It doesn't bode well for your existence when your concept of "risk" is losing made up money in a made up game lolololol...

Want to hear real risk? I damned near got killed by a group of pissed off 200ish lb boars that charged me last time I went hunting (30 mph and armed with tusks). Fortunately I was able to kill the last one about 10 yards from me.

Want to feel real risk? Go to East St Louis and start screaming racial epitaphs...

Want real risk? enlist in the army and get shot at for 12 months then get told your tour is being extended because of a stupid ass surge that still aint working.
Xzar Fyrarr
Anime Masters
#99 - 2012-12-17 17:15:08 UTC
Nice thread.












Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#100 - 2012-12-17 17:26:19 UTC
people that think low sec is non-existent obviously havent been there often

non-existent != no 1600 man blobs

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us