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Falcon's = Combat Killer

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Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#61 - 2012-12-15 22:48:32 UTC
As an EWAR pilot, I would like NOT to be nerfed.

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maCH'EttE
Perkone
Caldari State
#62 - 2012-12-15 23:05:49 UTC  |  Edited by: maCH'EttE
agree with the OP 100 percent.
Have seen alot of sabre/falcon combo. The falcon is the most OP ship in game if you ask me. I dont care, if you disagree, than you fly with 2 falcons in your fleet, if you disagree, you probably have a falcon alt.
The falcon should be nerfed more, and it should never have the ability to PERMA JAM a ship nor have the ability to jam/perma jam over 90km.
The new ECCM skills are a JOKE. Putting eccm on your ship dont help at all, ccp should really get of their "I love falcon" seat and take a really good look at the ship. Nerf it more just like you have nerfed asb and tier 3/cloacky boosters..
maCH'EttE
Perkone
Caldari State
#63 - 2012-12-15 23:10:00 UTC
Gibbo5771 wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
Gibbo5771 wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
not these threads again.

let's take another swing at it.


warp jammers/scrammers = combat killers. I can't get out of an engagement with my ship and so I lose.
or
target painters = combat killers. It'll make me take more damage and die faster and so I lose.
or
energy neuts = combat killers. It'll kill my cap and I won't be able to do jack as long as I have cap-based modules and so I lose.
or
TD's = combat killers. It'll make me hit for **** and I won't be able to do enough damage and so I lose.
or
damps = combat killers . It'll make me unable to target stuff at longer ranges and so I won't be able to do jack and so I lose.

omfg, this means one thing only! EWAR IS BAD FOR PVP SO THEY ALL MUST BE NERFED TO HELL AND BACK/REMOVED FROM GAME.


Warp "jammers/scrammers do not cease the use of your weaponry/offensive modules

Target painters do not cease the use of your weaponry/offensive modules

Neuts can be 100% countered with a cap booster

TD's can be countered with manual piloting and smart use of transversal

Damps can be countered by getting closer to the target

ECM can MAYBE be counter by ECCM, while everything else has a guranteed counter, ECM does not.

Webbed? Get out of web range or kill the webber, even better MWD away if possible. Or try and neut it off.
Scrammed? Use your own tackle to try and break the scram, neut or kill the scrammer. Or try and neut it off.
TD'd? Get closer if optimal scripted, if tracking becomes an issue manual pilot to try and increase damage. Or try and neut it off
Neuted? Use a cap booster with good timing to gain enough cap to keep guns/tank active. Fit a nos.
Damped? Get closer to the target if possible, if not kill other things near you and accept the death.
TP's? Move faster, neut it off or even better find a ship that actually fits a TP and dont engage it.
ECM? Dont engage with it on field, wont engage with it within 100km. Or burn away, the only ship class capable of burning out of its range within a respectable time frame is a frig, which btw from personal experience can be jammed right out to the Falcons max lock range. Which funny enough means it can just rewarp to the guy thats chasing you.

Anyone that really argues that ECM is fine, is either someone who flys with ECM or flies in a gang so large that you have an MWD and guns with every other slot empty and still not die.

ECM'ed? move out of range. those things got a range nerf, and it's not like they have a huge life expectancy in a battlefield anwyays.

you lost to a gang with ECM? he was better prepared than you. just because you have MOAR WEAPONZ! doesn't mean you can win all day.

people brought ECM to counter your single solo-ship? well, that's called "risk aversion" and it's an innate human trait. you don't fight a losing battle unless you're backed to a corner, so why should I bring a knife into a fight? I'll bring a friggin' nuke and **** you up from orbit.


You are completely oblivious to how ECM is actually used in a fight aren't you?
You have already started the fight, a tackler rushes you and then suddenly Falcon before you realise it, perma jammed, scrammed...left for dead. You are pretty ******* stupid imo by thinking that a gang bringing ECM was more prepared, they are not more prepared just a lot less skill orientated and more catered towards the "killmails" mean everything playstyle that most of eve really needs to move away from.

You ever actually fought solo vs a gang with a Falcon? or even better in a duo vs a gang with a Falcon, there is so very very little you can do to avoid being jammed, one is do not engage while the other is move out of range of the Falcon. I have been perma jammed in a Talos from 100km, more than once.

You do the math and tell me what happens when a Falcon decloaks 50km away, it takes another 50km to MAYBE get out of jam range. It will take you 29 seconds doing 1.7km/s to get out of the possible jam range of the Falcon, presuming he is sitting still. It however only takes a ceptor 6 seconds to get within point range and 9 to get a scram. This means when the Falcon decloaks you need to either A) not be tackled by anything faster than you and B) no fast tackle coming/on you. Which btw 90% of the time is not possible, in order to tackle you must be tackled back, putting you at risk from the Falcon in pretty much every single engagement. This pretty much goes for anything that kites, anything that brawls is pretty much in a 100% guaranteed position of complete disadvantage if a falcon decloaks 50km away, to the point that you literally can not do ANYTHING to prevent the jamming, even the counter module ECCM only reduces the CHANCE of getting jammed, which counts for nothing if you have 6 jammers slapped on you.

Falcons are useless vs a big gang, however bring it against 1-2 targets and it can turn an already one sided 1/2 vs 10+ into a basic instawin, even more so if one of is already tackled.

Only time a Falcon has not become a problem for me solo is a stupidly fit one with tackle/multispecs, or lands @ zero, panics and fails to even jam/warp.

I agree with all the points stated here.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#64 - 2012-12-15 23:15:22 UTC
Nasty little Falcon deserves a spanking !

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Gibbo5771
AQUILA INC
#65 - 2012-12-15 23:16:40 UTC
Altrue wrote:
Nasty little Falcon deserves a spanking !


OOOOHHHH YEEEAAAHHHH
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2012-12-15 23:17:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
OkaskiKali wrote:
Ok - a few years ago i remember CCP talking about the reason why they changes the doomsday affect from area to target specific.

I agreed with a lot of their thinking, titan AOE doomsdays killed battles.

I am finding that Falcons are in my opinion coming close to being "battle killers"; its relative ease at how it can sit cloaked, and then uncloak to jam targets to me is what is painful; some of the lamest tactics are at play here. sabre on gate go to engage uncloak falcon and sit for 30 + seconds and not be able to defend yourself is quite honestly a game killer.

I like to PVP and I have been using smaller ships since they have give me chest beating than using 250m ships - if i lose my small ship to a falcon jamming is less painful than losing a 250m ship. However, what ever the cost of ship - the falcon is quite honestly a battle killer. i guess this is coming from a point of view of a solo pvp'er but in any sized gang being able to not defend yourself against a falcon or for that matter a BB, is what for me is killing PVP.


Falcon is no where near a battle killer. They're like flying paper kites. A falcon doesn't show up on a field of opponents and devastate them. It requires support. It also has a counter as previously mentioned, eccm or another falcon or drones or frigates or an Arazu or snipers etc etc etc. If you're frustrated because you aren't bringing ecm to the field but your opponent is then perhaps there's something to learn from that?

At best Falcon is a support ship in much the same fashion as a Guardian. If your opponent brings one, you need to bring two. If they bring two, you need three. Same is true for a Falcon when fleets and command are evenly matched.

If you're being out classed by your opponent either accept that you're not able to field a Falcon and choose your targets appropriately or field one. A Falcon neither costs much or has a high skill bar. Comparing the Falcon to Titans is....well.....asinine.

Other arguments against Falcon included permajam is no different from permatank except yes you can shoot your target but no you can't break their tank because logi is on the field. If there wasn't Falcon in the game the next argument would be against the Scorpion. No Scorpion, then against logi. No logi, then against something else that prevents >you< from being successful at a fight because you can't don't won't field it.

Don't ban me, bro!
Velarra
#67 - 2012-12-15 23:39:19 UTC
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YoYo NickyYo
Doomheim
#68 - 2012-12-16 00:25:31 UTC
OkaskiKali wrote:
Can we get past how it happens and discuss how falcons and BB and kitsune destroys engagements



Perhaps we can discuss your inability to adapt? Falcons are paper airplanes, easy to kill. If you're going up against multiple targets, perhaps you might want to get some friends? Shocked


I am not, nor will I ever be...Nicky Yo.... The question you should ask is.....When will they release the NICKY!
Amarra Mandalin
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#69 - 2012-12-16 05:34:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarra Mandalin
Galaxy Pig wrote:
As an EWAR pilot, I would like NOT to be nerfed.


Really? I didn't know Mackinaws required EWAR. Evil

Mr Kidd wrote:


Falcon is no where near a battle killer. They're like flying paper kites. A falcon doesn't show up on a field of opponents and devastate them. It requires support. It also has a counter as previously mentioned, eccm or another falcon or drones or frigates or an Arazu or snipers etc etc etc. If you're frustrated because you aren't bringing ecm to the field but your opponent is then perhaps there's something to learn from that?

At best Falcon is a support ship in much the same fashion as a Guardian. If your opponent brings one, you need to bring two. If they bring two, you need three. Same is true for a Falcon when fleets and command are evenly matched.

If you're being out classed by your opponent either accept that you're not able to field a Falcon and choose your targets appropriately or field one. A Falcon neither costs much or has a high skill bar. Comparing the Falcon to Titans is....well.....asinine.

Other arguments against Falcon included permajam is no different from permatank except yes you can shoot your target but no you can't break their tank because logi is on the field. If there wasn't Falcon in the game the next argument would be against the Scorpion. No Scorpion, then against logi. No logi, then against something else that prevents >you< from being successful at a fight because you can't don't won't field it.


This covers pretty much what I wanted to add earlier as well. Plus it does require a fair amount of skill to fly a suicide Blackbird and even a Falcon and not die (unless you only engage solo pilots). You're often primary and besides fast frigs there are snipers and drones to worry about.

It might not be fun to face on the solo end, but many ships aren't. Dying to a Kitsune and friend is worse, just on principle.

I think I'd be tempted to fly a Pilgrim against this set up, though the Falcon would probably not uncloak with only a Sabre. If he does uncloak he has friends, likely.

Best bet, if you had the skills and isk and wanted to fight, would be to bring a friend -- with one of you who holds on the other side of the gate. But only if they didn't bring more to the party.

Another, much cheaper, option is to stalk them in stealth bomber and try to kill the Falcon (or even the Sabre) when he's engaged. Look for either to be running MWD for best results. 800mm Falcon is bit tougher though.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#70 - 2012-12-16 06:21:31 UTC
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:
ECCM..
Problem solved

Lol
Oh wow. Maybe ECCM modules for some reason do really well in RvB where ECM is banned or whatever, but for the rest of the game; ECM is broken.
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#71 - 2012-12-16 08:05:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Simetraz
OP sounds like someone actually thought about bringing out a well rounded group instead of a bigger hammer.

50 people don't need a falcon cause they simply out DPS things.
Smaller groups bring falcons.

Then again if your group had its own falcon you could jam there jammer and be done with it.
IF your jammer pilot pilot doesn't jump the gun that is.

Wait doesn't that mean people would need to use tactics.

NVM people don't do that in EVE

EVERYBODY KNOWS
OkaskiKali
Aussie Carebear OverLords
#72 - 2012-12-16 12:47:31 UTC
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
OkaskiKali wrote:
Gillia Winddancer wrote:


Oh, and to the OP. Frankly, if you are solo and face off against the best ECM ship then yeah, I do think you should be in trouble with locking on regardless of how the ECM is designed.


I faced off against a sabre - thats what i saw in my overview.

take a look at my comments above ^ =====


I was under the impression that the Falcon was with the Sabre that you faced? Or did I misread somewhere?


Exactly i faced off against a sabre that i could see in my overview was more than happy to go at it and low and behold as soon as we engaged perma jammed from a falcon that uncloak 50km away....

Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#73 - 2012-12-16 12:56:08 UTC
Djana Libra wrote:
because of falcon!

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NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#74 - 2012-12-16 15:25:56 UTC
I like the idea of low slot eccm boosting sensor strength and mid slot stopping a jam
Fits with the dynamic of low being passive helping with mids being active aid.
The fun part should be is that they only bonus against that type of ecm.
So thus using off ecm is better at times than racial.
This would require a redo of adding all the sensor strengths to hulls, though with racial bonuses.
This would make it so that ecm is useful, but can not be a chance based perma effect so long as you pack the right mods.
Thus we keep jamming as its current effect while altering how it occurs.
And giving a way to neutralize it.

Now back to my griffon that no one shoots and yet jams the target well enough.
Veinnail
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#75 - 2012-12-16 15:37:35 UTC
I enjoy using a sabre and falcons against entire gangs. It is very much like Russian Roulette.
Amarra Mandalin
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#76 - 2012-12-16 16:28:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarra Mandalin
OkaskiKali wrote:
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
OkaskiKali wrote:
Gillia Winddancer wrote:


Oh, and to the OP. Frankly, if you are solo and face off against the best ECM ship then yeah, I do think you should be in trouble with locking on regardless of how the ECM is designed.


I faced off against a sabre - thats what i saw in my overview.

take a look at my comments above ^ =====


I was under the impression that the Falcon was with the Sabre that you faced? Or did I misread somewhere?


Exactly i faced off against a sabre that i could see in my overview was more than happy to go at it and low and behold as soon as we engaged perma jammed from a falcon that uncloak 50km away....




You still don't sound like you're taking responsibility for the fight that you engaged in. What if it had been a Sabre and and intstalock Zealot ...or one of many other 2v1 combos.

And I'm not trolling you, but if you want to improve your solo PvP experience you might consider a little humility.

Most of us mere humans learn PvP after many loses and oftentimes loses can be a lot of fun if you learn something from them -- for you live to fight another day and may win.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#77 - 2012-12-16 16:48:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Sounds like his problem isn't the lone falcon, but that falcon and the other ship.

Kind of like a guy in a falcon complaining that he got jumped by two guys and coudln't do anything.


What happens in the same situation if the OP had a friend with him in another assault ship?

Edit:
What would happen if the OP had 2 to 1 odds on those guys even?
CCP Falcon
#78 - 2012-12-16 16:51:33 UTC
Gibbo5771 wrote:
Altrue wrote:
Nasty little Falcon deserves a spanking !


OOOOHHHH YEEEAAAHHHH


Shocked

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

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ISD TYPE40
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#79 - 2012-12-16 16:54:48 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Gibbo5771 wrote:
Altrue wrote:
Nasty little Falcon deserves a spanking !


OOOOHHHH YEEEAAAHHHH


Shocked




Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:


FLY, YOU FOOLS!



FLY!

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OkaskiKali
Aussie Carebear OverLords
#80 - 2012-12-16 19:01:42 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Sounds like his problem isn't the lone falcon, but that falcon and the other ship.

Kind of like a guy in a falcon complaining that he got jumped by two guys and coudln't do anything.


What happens in the same situation if the OP had a friend with him in another assault ship?

Edit:
What would happen if the OP had 2 to 1 odds on those guys even?


I'm going to be polite - the problem is the falcon alone. Holistically there is not any way to combat being permanent jammed

Anyway a lot of good point on here it's time to kill this post