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Does the math work - Bonds / IPO might as well be advertised in Jita Local
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Slumpert
Hookers and Quafe
#1 - 2012-12-14 19:15:36 UTC
Okay so can anyone give me a legitimate reason a player would need billions of isk in order to not only make the isk back but be able to payout 5-50% as promised on these so-called oppurtunities?

If your good with making a profit, you should be able to build up to that level of ISK in a shorter period of time than you seem to "Put" into making a realisic IPO/Bond.

I look at the effort put into the majority of this whole channel and all I see is "Scams" from the start, or disillusioned plans that will just turn out to be a "Scam" in the end.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-12-14 19:59:09 UTC
RP

.
Every One
Triglavian Directive
S h a d o w
#3 - 2012-12-14 22:24:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Every One
Slumpert wrote:
disillusioned plans

Hey! That's better than not having a plan at all!
Styth spiting
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2012-12-14 23:22:25 UTC
Slumpert wrote:
Okay so can anyone give me a legitimate reason a player would need billions of isk in order to not only make the isk back but be able to payout 5-50% as promised on these so-called oppurtunities?

If your good with making a profit, you should be able to build up to that level of ISK in a shorter period of time than you seem to "Put" into making a realisic IPO/Bond.

I look at the effort put into the majority of this whole channel and all I see is "Scams" from the start, or disillusioned plans that will just turn out to be a "Scam" in the end.



Well it's Jita local. Everything is a scam there. You should never click on anything, talk to anyone or be involved in anything in local. Anyone who says otherwise most likely is a scammer/alt scammer.


You know this right?
Joshua Vaughn Lampen
Archer Investments Initiative
#5 - 2012-12-14 23:47:50 UTC
Every One wrote:
Slumpert wrote:
disillusioned plans

Hey! That's better than not having a plan at all!


A good disillusioned plan is better than none. Have to agree :P
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-12-15 01:12:05 UTC
This is actually incredibly easy to answer;

Interest paid on collateralized loans is generally 2-3%, plus 1-3% for the third party trustee, per month. That only adds up to 3-6%. Now, once in a while, people like myself will spot (and by spot, I mean through lots of background research, reading between the lines, and understanding trends) a market opportunity, where there will be a sizable payout, however, we will not have enough isk on hand to truly capitalize on the investment as much as might possibly be desired.

This is where the bond comes in.

Lets say I have 2 bil in assets, but I have a capital ship bpo set, and a moros, that I'm not really using, parked in lowsec.

I spot an opportunity that will pay out probably between 30-40% return, in around 3 months time. If I invest my 2bil, at a minimum projected return rate, I end up with 2.6bil, for a total profit of 600mil.

However, with my capital bpo set having a market value of about 11bil, and my dreadnaught being worth about 3.5bil, I might collateralize them toward a 13billion isk loan at a rate of 2.5% interest + 1.5% broker fee (overcollateralized for bond safety). This leaves me with a total of 15 billion isk.

Now I will have to pay 4% interest per month on the 13 billion, so 520million interest for the 3 months, HOWEVER, once the product sells, at that minimum return of 30%, I will yield 19.5bil total, 4.5bil profit minus the 520mil loan interest, for a total return of 3.98 billion isk, even though I only had 2 billion isk to play with.

Of course, this is a little bit riskier than playing with just your own money, however, it gives you the opportunity to make more isk than you have to funds to do so.

The scenario I have outlined is not an unrealistic one, it infact fairly closely mirrors an investment I made recently.
Slumpert
Hookers and Quafe
#7 - 2012-12-15 02:18:57 UTC
Joshua Vaughn Lampen wrote:
Every One wrote:
Slumpert wrote:
disillusioned plans

Hey! That's better than not having a plan at all!


A good disillusioned plan is better than none. Have to agree :P


Haha okay on that point..

Back to - Arronicus : Thank you for the detail post, but in rewinding your post due to the fact you have a "disillusioned" plan.

You are selling the promise of a 30% minimum return on investment in 3 months time..
Your detailed breakdown is the exact thing I would expect from someone who writes out these "Bonds"
Including math error of 4% interest a month = 520mil a month, not total. So interest payment are @1.5bil

If you are as good at researching the markets and predicting the future 3months out, you might be better off selling your unused assets.

If your doing a secured collateral service your posing little risk to your investors or are you?? In this day and age even a 3rd party trustee is about as guaranted as well nothing.
Slumpert
Hookers and Quafe
#8 - 2012-12-15 02:21:47 UTC
[/quote]

Well it's Jita local. Everything is a scam there. You should never click on anything, talk to anyone or be involved in anything in local. Anyone who says otherwise most likely is a scammer/alt scammer.


You know this right?[/quote]

I know that and I think this channel is close to being the same results, only with better skilled scammers.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-12-15 02:30:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Arronicus
Slumpert wrote:
Joshua Vaughn Lampen wrote:
Every One wrote:
Slumpert wrote:
disillusioned plans

Hey! That's better than not having a plan at all!


A good disillusioned plan is better than none. Have to agree :P


Haha okay on that point..

Back to - Arronicus : Thank you for the detail post, but in rewinding your post due to the fact you have a "disillusioned" plan.

You are selling the promise of a 30% minimum return on investment in 3 months time..
Your detailed breakdown is the exact thing I would expect from someone who writes out these "Bonds"
Including math error of 4% interest a month = 520mil a month, not total. So interest payment are @1.5bil

If you are as good at researching the markets and predicting the future 3months out, you might be better off selling your unused assets.

If your doing a secured collateral service your posing little risk to your investors or are you?? In this day and age even a 3rd party trustee is about as guaranted as well nothing.





Thats a good catch on the 520 a month, forgot to multiple that by 3. However, That brings the total final profit down to 2.940 billion. I typically use spreadsheets to calculate these things, helpful for double checking and not forgetting stocks. As for selling off unused assetts, it's not always an option. I have assetts that I want to hold onto, but I'm willing to place bets with. I don't think people who own bpo sets neccessarily want to sell off their sets. Perhaps they have plans to use them again, perhaps, like me, they just like having various collections.

So, in many cases, no, not exactly unused assets. As for security, most collateral services aren't really worth trusting with large funds. In eve with anything where someone else is holding your money, you're going based on the other person's reputation. It all comes down to, if they've held 50x as much as they are brokering for you, and didn't steal that, are they going to steal yours? Chribba, Darkness, Grendell, are all tried and true. They've been doing this for years, and haven't scammed. As long as you uphold your end of the bargain, they aren't going to scam you.

So yes, their garauntees do count for something.

Now would you mind explaining to me how a small miscalculation, that STILL leaves my plan highly viable, makes it disillusioned? I'm even happy to outline past investments that yielded over 50% return within 3 months, if you like.
Slumpert
Hookers and Quafe
#10 - 2012-12-15 03:17:42 UTC
Arronicus - Okay so back to the topic of does the math work.

Best case senario:
4% interest paid month on your (I am sure I will make at least 30% in 90days) plan = Math does work

Reality:
I do not believe most of the offerings in this channel will ever achieve thier predicted rate of return, nor do I believe most of them would even really try as they intend to scam from the start.

I have no doubt that the three third-party persons you listed are currently legit, but rarely do they sponsor the stuff going on in this channel and their are plenty of third-party toons that went down the dark side and even more that will in the future.

I agree your plan is not disillusional as you fully know that if your wrong you will lose as proportional as you hoped to gain

Thanks for the feedback, I wish you sucess and I hope your plan works..

Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-12-15 03:36:32 UTC
Just so I'm absolutely clear, I can't say for anyone but the three I listed, anyone else trust at your own risk lol. Or dont use a third party, trade the collateral, for the loan
Razor Rocker
Super Mother Fan Club
#12 - 2012-12-15 15:50:14 UTC
In the end, Yes there is certainly a risk, and yet if you choose properly, loan sharking does turn a profit. Just need to be careful with who you deal with.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#13 - 2012-12-16 07:25:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Slumpert wrote:
Okay so can anyone give me a legitimate reason a player would need billions of isk in order to not only make the isk back but be able to payout 5-50% as promised on these so-called oppurtunities?

If your good with making a profit, you should be able to build up to that level of ISK in a shorter period of time than you seem to "Put" into making a realisic IPO/Bond.

I look at the effort put into the majority of this whole channel and all I see is "Scams" from the start, or disillusioned plans that will just turn out to be a "Scam" in the end.

Well for me, it really isn't worth my time to deal in piddly small change [Ningy and Pu]. I'd much rather earn 10% of 100b in one month than 10% of 10b in one month.

Add to that people with ISK sitting idle in their wallets. They'd much rather get ISK deposited monthly without having to actually do anything. Hence I always pay interest monthly, as people prefer to see ISK constantly rolling in [and pay for their accounts monthly via PLEX].

The offerings you see on MD are a tiny fraction of the offerings that are privately offered and filled in-game everyday.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#14 - 2012-12-16 09:19:12 UTC
Slumpert wrote:

If you are as good at researching the markets and predicting the future 3months out, you might be better off selling your unused assets.

If your doing a secured collateral service your posing little risk to your investors or are you?? In this day and age even a 3rd party trustee is about as guaranted as well nothing.


You should inform yourself better about the many facets of the game before coming out with blanket statements like these.

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