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Talos needs to be nerfed. Long live the Vagabond!

First post
Author
Silas Shaw
Coffee Hub
#101 - 2012-12-15 03:58:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Silas Shaw
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W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#102 - 2012-12-15 04:37:54 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Eve ate my orginal post :( .

In general, liang your videos show you at beeing at best a mediocre pvper which proves nothing in this discussion, your fit misses dps/range/ehp/agility to get sram immunity , it doesnt work solo (as anyone can just burn away) nor is it an actualy improvement over a real talos. (also 3200m/s is a number you achieve with heat and links, a mwd one has very similar speed)

The proteus killmail is bad and you could have done the same in a mwd talos (if youd suck less and handt been on 0 at the beginning). (same with the falcon)

100mn ships have their niche but its not a very big one and it certainly isnt what your using it in (blobbing people in amamake).

Lastly you can kite (kite not nano, even the vagabond isnt a naoship as nano=speed tank and it range tanks) with 1200m/s with no problem even without a web or neuts (watch for example fons rocket series for proof).

Lastly neither talos could actually do any harm at all to a competent 100mn tengu!


Wow, look how bad you are at this game. A few comments:
- It's not like you can't fit the MFS. It's that it delivers less real DPS than the tracking enhancers, which double as helping apply damage to smaller fry. I could potentially see switching out one TE for a MFS, but then you lose out on range and that's just silly.
- The primary goals of a 100mn fit is scram immunity and damage mitigation. That's what you're not understanding - you look at your pretty 30k EHP and it's a big number on EFT. But how does it fare when you're being focused fired by a bunch of BCs and battleships?
- The Proteus in question warped into my position at zero after scan probing me out. Amusingly, this is what I *wanted* him to do. The MWD Proteus would have died quite quickly to a range linked scram Proteus, and claiming otherwise is... well, stupid.
- I don't think that I'm the one blobbing when I'm fighting outnumbered and outshipped. I mean, perhaps there's blobbing going on, but I'm not the one doing it. Lol
- Yes, the Talos can do harm to a competent 100mn Tengu. I've done it. ;-)

Honestly, the more I talk to you guys the more I realize that Tuskers is full of terribads. 1600 m/s is nano and 1200 m/s is viable for kite tanking? Psch.

-Liang



I know perfectly well how a 100mn ab fit works (a proper one in a proper ship), but you dont migate a lot of damage, due to the way transversal works if you are able to hit them they can hit you, you also are to slow to really nano with it. The only damage you migate is that of a webless drake but you still arent fast/agile enough to hold it down (i.e if it swtcihes directions and heats you have pretty much no chance of holding it down).


Yes the 100mn ships can work but you dont get a similar performance out of them when you fly them without links/implants and even then they are worse at pretty much everything besides killing off frigates, webless drakes (which you can pretty much do in a void mwd talos anyways) and stationary battleships (which you pretty much never encounter). You also get the ability to fly at full speed at a 90% angle to a blob where you will tank quite a lot but you also wont track a thing.

What you lose and what imo is fatal to the ship is that it now loses to most cruisers, armor crusiers are now as fast as you with way more ehp and better agility (so they can click aproach web you and sit at 0, straight up winning the dps/ehp race) where a normal talso can kill them while they are aproaching as due to its agility they are a lot harder to catch (if you land 20km of a crusier in a ab talos you need forever to get to sufficient speed while a mwd talos can almost instanly speed up) and whats even worse, you loose to most shiled kiting cruisers in a straight dps/ehp race, a omen will win if it manages to start the fight under 30km!

And a cyna/vaga will now win vs you pretty comfortably.

Also from what i have seen in your videos (yes now i watched some of them) you simply blob people all day long.

And i have yet to see proove of you flying outbumbered/outshipped (and no ganking noobs in frigates is neither), and to say it again you cant kill competent 100mn tengus in your talos

And leave my corp out of this, it has nothing to do with my opinions.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#103 - 2012-12-15 07:27:28 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:

I know perfectly well how a 100mn ab fit works (a proper one in a proper ship), but you dont migate a lot of damage, due to the way transversal works if you are able to hit them they can hit you, you also are to slow to really nano with it. The only damage you migate is that of a webless drake but you still arent fast/agile enough to hold it down (i.e if it swtcihes directions and heats you have pretty much no chance of holding it down).


Yes the 100mn ships can work but you dont get a similar performance out of them when you fly them without links/implants and even then they are worse at pretty much everything besides killing off frigates, webless drakes (which you can pretty much do in a void mwd talos anyways) and stationary battleships (which you pretty much never encounter). You also get the ability to fly at full speed at a 90% angle to a blob where you will tank quite a lot but you also wont track a thing.


So.... in other words a 100mn nano fit should focus on tracking and damage application because otherwise they don't do any damage at all? ******* cool story bro, it's about time you caught up in the conversation. One thing you haven't considered is the fact that the Talos's sig radius isn't blown up by 500% while the MWDing ship after you is.

Quote:

What you lose and what imo is fatal to the ship is that it now loses to most cruisers, armor crusiers are now as fast as you with way more ehp and better agility (so they can click aproach web you and sit at 0, straight up winning the dps/ehp race) where a normal talso can kill them while they are aproaching as due to its agility they are a lot harder to catch (if you land 20km of a crusier in a ab talos you need forever to get to sufficient speed while a mwd talos can almost instanly speed up) and whats even worse, you loose to most shiled kiting cruisers in a straight dps/ehp race, a omen will win if it manages to start the fight under 30km!


See, that's what I've been trying to get at here. Yes, the MWD Talos can speed up a fair bit faster than the Talos I was running there, but the difference isn't nearly as crippling as you seem to think it is. It's also not nearly as large as you think it is. At any rate, I know you think that all that'll happen is that I immediately get vaporized by the first cruiser that I land within 20km of, but the truth is that I'm looking at me starting a fight at 300m/s and being primaried at 20km by:
- Harbinger
- Deimos
- Malediction
- Drake
- Hurricane
- Hurricane
- Hurricane

I survived and went on to do really well in the fight. It's true that the fight was a while back, but I'd have expected to be simply melted if what you said is correct. This is hardly a new or rare thing to happen in a fit like that - so I think your understanding of the way the fit works is fundamentally flawed.

Quote:
And a cyna/vaga will now win vs you pretty comfortably.


I don't remember hearing about any Cynabal/Vaga changes recently, and they damn sure didn't do anything to be before the patch. What changed?

Quote:
And leave my corp out of this, it has nothing to do with my opinions.


There's more than one of you up in here making absolutely silly comments. 1200m/s is good for kiting! 1600m/s is nano speeds.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Maelle LuzArdiden
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2012-12-15 08:04:53 UTC
Liang why do you always have to ruin every discussion thread with your irrelevant epeen bullcrap? This is going nowhere.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#105 - 2012-12-15 08:18:53 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:



So.... in other words a 100mn nano fit should focus on tracking and damage application because otherwise they don't do any damage at all? ******* cool story bro, it's about time you caught up in the conversation. One thing you haven't considered is the fact that the Talos's sig radius isn't blown up by 500% while the MWDing ship after you is.



See, that's what I've been trying to get at here. Yes, the MWD Talos can speed up a fair bit faster than the Talos I was running there, but the difference isn't nearly as crippling as you seem to think it is. It's also not nearly as large as you think it is. At any rate, I know you think that all that'll happen is that I immediately get vaporized by the first cruiser that I land within 20km of, but the truth is that I'm looking at me starting a fight at 300m/s and being primaried at 20km by:
- Harbinger
- Deimos
- Malediction
- Drake
- Hurricane
- Hurricane
- Hurricane

I survived and went on to do really well in the fight. It's true that the fight was a while back, but I'd have expected to be simply melted if what you said is correct. This is hardly a new or rare thing to happen in a fit like that - so I think your understanding of the way the fit works is fundamentally flawed.



I don't remember hearing about any Cynabal/Vaga changes recently, and they damn sure didn't do anything to be before the patch. What changed?


-Liang


Yes a 100mn should (if it isnt fit with missiles) be able to track well, im not saying that your 100mn talos is a bad 100mn talos, im saying its not as good in most situations as a 10mn talos (and that they are bad in general). And yes the reduced sig is nice vs missiles but you still arent a tiny ship even with an ab so medium turrets will still track you fine (especially as you cant orbit at 500 you will be a fair bit off all the time).

That you survived would be pretty impossible if they had really primaried you and you would have stayed at 20km (even an armor cane puts out vs your fit flying at the highest possible transversal at 20km 300dps, significantly more if it is an shield cane, a shiled harbi would do about 500dps and a shield deimos 500 aswell).

That vaga/cyna thing is just straight math, if we ssume you use cn antimatter and burn at your top speed in a straight line and they also follow in a straght line while you web them off at 13km (would still work with both ships sitting still btw) you do 700ish dps with 13k ehp, a vaga does 580dps with 30k ehp, guess who wins! (and due to their tracking there is no way for you to fly to reduce that damage).



And yes kiting works with 1200m/s base mwd speed, of course depending what you take on (i.e no you obviously cant kite a ceptor gang with that), its quite hard to do it solo at such low speeds but in a gang it works just fine. You dont have to be super fast you just have to be faster than their main dps (i.e bcs, which usually are around 1km/s). If you throw in snakes/links the 1200m/s ship suddenly flys 2km/s. The problem with more speed (unless you are in a oversized ab ship were the rules are a bit different as then speed=tank) is that once you are faster than their main dps much more speed isnt helping you much you still wont be much faster than frigates!
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#106 - 2012-12-15 08:24:01 UTC
Maelle LuzArdiden wrote:
Liang why do you always have to ruin every discussion thread with your irrelevant epeen bullcrap? This is going nowhere.


Yes please stop with the i tanked this i did that nonsense, its quite annoying. I once took a 10mn hookbill (with a 10mn slicer) and fought a 40man fleet and won and the next time they brought 3 rapiers a falcon and 4 blackbirds to kill me. Does it prove anything or does it provide anything usefull to the discussion or does it indicate that 10mn hookbils are awesome and are a better way of fitting them compared to a mwd or a normal ab? No of course not.

And neither does you i killed this and i tanked that!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#107 - 2012-12-15 19:49:09 UTC
Maelle LuzArdiden wrote:
Liang why do you always have to ruin every discussion thread with your irrelevant epeen bullcrap? This is going nowhere.


It was never my intention to bring up the 100mn Talos fits or any of the shenanigans that I've been up to in it. If you go back and read the thread again, I've only responded to complete and total misunderstandings of the way the ship works. Instead, my base assertion is that the provided "nano" Talos fit is a bad fit and is not nano. I further add that claiming fits like that "obsolete the Vagabond" is utter hogwash and the Vaga and Cynabal should never even be brought up in a discussion where actual nano isn't an important feature in the discussion!

Basically, this is the argument being put forward by the terribads in Tuskers:
- The Talos obsoletes the Vagabond at kite tanking because it goes faster than 1200 m/s and has better DPS at range.
- The Talos obsoletes the Vagabond at nanoing because it goes faster than 1600 m/s and has better DPS at range.

Amusingly, the Megathron also obsoletes the Vagabond at kite tanking because it goes faster than 1200 m/s and has better DPS at range. It also obsoletes the Talos, apparently.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#108 - 2012-12-15 20:06:29 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Yes a 100mn should (if it isnt fit with missiles) be able to track well, im not saying that your 100mn talos is a bad 100mn talos, im saying its not as good in most situations as a 10mn talos (and that they are bad in general). And yes the reduced sig is nice vs missiles but you still arent a tiny ship even with an ab so medium turrets will still track you fine (especially as you cant orbit at 500 you will be a fair bit off all the time).


Actually you did contend it was a bad fit and you've consistently misunderstood the amount of damage mitigation the fit has. You keep saying that medium turrets track it fine, but the truth is that they don't. I even cited a specific example of be getting literally primaried at 20km by an entire enemy BC fleet. I've got a lot of practical experience in this fit and you've done nothing but make completely wrong assertions about how it flies and how it works. For instance, that it doesn't mitigate damage vs medium guns. You don't understand it - and that's fine. But do try not to tell me about how it works, eh?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#109 - 2012-12-15 20:27:06 UTC
You simply are terrible, dont bring up stuff that doesnt matter!

Medium turrets track you just fine (try it with a corp m8 if you dont believe me), 1600m/s is more than fast enough for a kiting ship for pretty much everything but frigates (and even they can be killed), this is and has been documented in tons of videos.

And seriosuly get of your arrogant postion i know perfectly well how to fly a oversized ab ship (probably better than you) and you dont have to explain any of this stuff to any of us!

What i am trying to say is that if you try to kill someone in your talos which isnt a battleship or a frigate the 10mn talos is simply better due to better range control (yes your ship is faster and has a web. but due to your agility you cant try to match transversal).


Also the vaga is not a nano ship! (at least not in the conventional form, nano= tanks via speed and range, the vaga tanks only by range in the medern form nano=kititng so theres no speed difference in the two).


If you dont think that the talos (or tier3s in general) obsolete the vaga why is it that pretty much every small scale kiting gang prefers them over the vagabond? (and why is it that most people still prefer the 10mn talos over the 100mn)


Also your example is worthless (as is tbh your entire argumentation, it only bases on "im so l33t" "my epeen is so big" "look what i did" ).


And again its pretty clear that you arent very good at this game (as is proven in your videos/posts) and the only reason i havnt atacked your corp for having you yet, is because we have some ex heretics!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#110 - 2012-12-15 20:59:07 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
You simply are terrible, dont bring up stuff that doesnt matter!

Medium turrets track you just fine (try it with a corp m8 if you dont believe me), 1600m/s is more than fast enough for a kiting ship for pretty much everything but frigates (and even they can be killed), this is and has been documented in tons of videos. And seriosuly get of your arrogant postion i know perfectly well how to fly a oversized ab ship (probably better than you) and you dont have to explain any of this stuff to any of us!


I obviously have to explain it to you because you're a terrible baddie that keeps making consistently wrong statements. "If you can hit them, they can hit you". "Medium guns track it just fine". "It takes forever to get up to speed". Look, I get that you really want to refocus the conversation around 100mn Talos fits because you feel they're weaker than your garbage 10mn fit, but that really only works if they are weaker.

And the funny thing is that sometimes a 100mn Talos fit is weaker than a 10mn fit. You're right - it makes trade offs. It trades raw EFT damage for applied in game damage. It trades raw EFT tank and agility for actual in game damage mitigation, scram immunity, and range control. But there's a few times when you're actually able to bring raw EFT damage to bear - and in those cases the 10mn EFT damage EFT tank fit works better. But those aren't the kinds of situations that would typically have ever involved Vagabonds.

Quote:

Also the vaga is not a nano ship! (at least not in the conventional form, nano= tanks via speed and range, the vaga tanks only by range in the medern form nano=kititng so theres no speed difference in the two).


I'm not sure that your redefinition of the term nano holds much water. The Vaga has always been the flagship "nano ship", and it never "speed tanked" as you are using the term. It's always used speed to stay at range and kite tanked. Maybe this is where you're going wrong, because there's very few actual nano ships by your definition - maybe a few frigs, the Ishtar, and 100mn Tengus?

Quote:

If you dont think that the talos (or tier3s in general) obsolete the vaga why is it that pretty much every small scale kiting gang prefers them over the vagabond? (and why is it that most people still prefer the 10mn talos over the 100mn)


The reason that the Talos (and Tier 3s in general) don't obsolete the Vaga is because you aren't using it like a Vaga was ever used or meant to be used. The bar you've set for "obsoleting the Vaga" is so low that Battleships easily cross it, for crying out loud. Maybe you mean to say that the role the Vaga fulfills has gotten less important over time - and to a point that's certainly true.

But really, I think the primary culprit there isn't the Talos or Tier 3s, but rampant 50% mobility bonuses given out by gang boosters. The ability to easily get up into the 2.5-3km/s range would be a lot more valuable if pretty much every ship in the game couldn't be pushed there.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#111 - 2012-12-15 21:36:34 UTC
The vaga is/was a ship that is designed around speed and projecting damage at range, meaing you stay at range and kill off ships that burn after you . Frigates are generally faster than you but the rest isnt so you can control the range (same in fleet situation only that then frigates pose no danger to you). The problem with the talos is that it speed while it isnt great is fast enough to outrun most general fleet dps, and the ones it cant outrun it can outdps/tank (more so if you add in links/snakes), what is supposed to be the tradeoff is its tracking, battleship sized guns have a very big sig and in general bad tracking, the problem is that due to how the tracking formula works this doesnt matter anymore once the transversal is low enough (which it will be if they try to bun after you).

But please enlighten me and tell me what the vagas role is and why a talos cant fulfill it!

(also yes back in the nano/ages the vaga tanked via speed and yes by my definition the 100mn tengus and a few frigs are the only true nanoships left)

Btw you can kite in battleships, (and not just the machariel, you can kite in a pest or even a vindicator or a golem and yes a kiting vindicator is way better than the talos/vaga but it also costs way more) the problem is their agility and the fact that they take forever to lock stuff and that they are so big!

Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
#112 - 2012-12-15 21:49:52 UTC
Hmmm... "X outperforms Y, nerf it!" Kinda like: "His stuff is better than my stuff, take it away so I can feel good about myself again."

Love these threads. So Juvenile.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#113 - 2012-12-15 21:54:12 UTC
Petrified wrote:
Hmmm... "X outperforms Y, nerf it!" Kinda like: "His stuff is better than my stuff, take it away so I can feel good about myself again."

Love these threads. So Juvenile.



The problem is (even tho some bads refuse to acknowledge it) is that the tier3s obsolete the vaga/cyna for half the price! They do exactky the same but they are better at it!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#114 - 2012-12-15 22:01:29 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
The vaga is/was a ship that is designed around speed and projecting damage at range, meaing you stay at range and kill off ships that burn after you . Frigates are generally faster than you but the rest isnt so you can control the range (same in fleet situation only that then frigates pose no danger to you). The problem with the talos is that it speed while it isnt great is fast enough to outrun most general fleet dps, and the ones it cant outrun it can outdps/tank (more so if you add in links/snakes), what is supposed to be the tradeoff is its tracking, battleship sized guns have a very big sig and in general bad tracking, the problem is that due to how the tracking formula works this doesnt matter anymore once the transversal is low enough (which it will be if they try to bun after you).


One problem with your kiting MWD Talos fit is exactly the same one you were describing earlier. Even armor tanked cruisers are faster than it is now, and some of them actually have the tank to take it and damage projection to punch back. Once they land a scram or web on you, it's over for you. The Talos in question is in the "nano" battleship speed range and has absolutely no way to control range. You can say that this is mitigated by links and implants, but that street goes both ways.

Really, the Vaga has always been a conservative kiting ship - a Vaga pilot always tended to make sure of his own safety first and then pick off the stragglers. What made it so frustrating to fight was that it was so hard to catch and kill - a feature that's shared by the 100mn Talos but not by the 10mn Talos. I suppose that's why a large part of this conversation has revolved around your misunderstandings of the way 100mn fits work - because they potentially impinge upon the role of the Vaga. I don't think it's really true, but I can see the argument for it.

Quote:

(also yes back in the nano/ages the vaga tanked via speed and yes by my definition the 100mn tengus and a few frigs are the only true nanoships left)

Btw you can kite in battleships, (and not just the machariel, you can kite in a pest or even a vindicator or a golem and yes a kiting vindicator is way better than the talos/vaga but it also costs way more) the problem is their agility and the fact that they take forever to lock stuff and that they are so big!


I guess that this is a perfect summarization - in your own words - of why we should never trust your word about how the Talos obsoletes the Vagabond.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#115 - 2012-12-15 22:02:00 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Petrified wrote:
Hmmm... "X outperforms Y, nerf it!" Kinda like: "His stuff is better than my stuff, take it away so I can feel good about myself again."

Love these threads. So Juvenile.



The problem is (even tho some bads refuse to acknowledge it) is that the tier3s obsolete the vaga/cyna for half the price! They do exactky the same but they are better at it!


They don't do the same things. It's that you don't value the things that they do.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
#116 - 2012-12-15 22:03:03 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Petrified wrote:
Hmmm... "X outperforms Y, nerf it!" Kinda like: "His stuff is better than my stuff, take it away so I can feel good about myself again."

Love these threads. So Juvenile.



The problem is (even tho some bads refuse to acknowledge it) is that the tier3s obsolete the vaga/cyna for half the price! They do exactky the same but they are better at it!


Is that not what any technology advancement does? Make the former obsolete, and often for less cost? Perhaps the real issue is the cost of manufacturing the Vaga/Cyna to begin with or, likewise with tech advancements, the Vaga et al are improved.

Maybe it is time for CCP to introduce retrofitting, where an existing ship can be improved - at a cost, mind you, to keep up with the improvements of technology.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#117 - 2012-12-15 22:23:09 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

One problem with your kiting MWD Talos fit is exactly the same one you were describing earlier. Even armor tanked cruisers are faster than it is now, and some of them actually have the tank to take it and damage projection to punch back. Once they land a scram or web on you, it's over for you. The Talos in question is in the "nano" battleship speed range and has absolutely no way to control range. You can say that this is mitigated by links and implants, but that street goes both ways.

Really, the Vaga has always been a conservative kiting ship - a Vaga pilot always tended to make sure of his own safety first and then pick off the stragglers. What made it so frustrating to fight was that it was so hard to catch and kill - a feature that's shared by the 100mn Talos but not by the 10mn Talos. I suppose that's why a large part of this conversation has revolved around your misunderstandings of the way 100mn fits work - because they potentially impinge upon the role of the Vaga. I don't think it's really true, but I can see the argument for it.



The reason the shield talos works as well as it does is its extreme dps, an armour crusier isnt that much faster (if at all) so it will most likely get killed while it approaches, on the oposite you fit takes 18secs to reach its top speed giving a crusier enough time to get their webs on you and due to your tradeoffs you are now incapable of killing them

Vagas are extremly easy to catch and kill btw!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#118 - 2012-12-15 22:44:28 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

One problem with your kiting MWD Talos fit is exactly the same one you were describing earlier. Even armor tanked cruisers are faster than it is now, and some of them actually have the tank to take it and damage projection to punch back. Once they land a scram or web on you, it's over for you. The Talos in question is in the "nano" battleship speed range and has absolutely no way to control range. You can say that this is mitigated by links and implants, but that street goes both ways.

Really, the Vaga has always been a conservative kiting ship - a Vaga pilot always tended to make sure of his own safety first and then pick off the stragglers. What made it so frustrating to fight was that it was so hard to catch and kill - a feature that's shared by the 100mn Talos but not by the 10mn Talos. I suppose that's why a large part of this conversation has revolved around your misunderstandings of the way 100mn fits work - because they potentially impinge upon the role of the Vaga. I don't think it's really true, but I can see the argument for it.



The reason the shield talos works as well as it does is its extreme dps, an armour crusier isnt that much faster (if at all) so it will most likely get killed while it approaches, on the oposite you fit takes 18secs to reach its top speed giving a crusier enough time to get their webs on you and due to your tradeoffs you are now incapable of killing them

Vagas are extremly easy to catch and kill btw!


A few comments:
- You seem to have neglected the web. Yes, it's possible for something to get within web range but generally they're counter webbed and it isn't but a second or two before you're speeding out of reach (again).
- It doesn't take 18 seconds to reach top speed. It takes just over half that.
- Yes, you have "overwhelming DPS", but plated and trimarked armor cruisers are faster than the stated Talos fit. Everything that you're saying makes your fit work works for mine as well, except I'm not crippled the first time someone closes to within 15km of me.

-Liang

Ed: Also, if Vagas are extremely easy to catch and kill... then so is your Talos. Because your "overwhelming DPS" isn't really going to save you.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Gibbo5771
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#119 - 2012-12-15 23:11:33 UTC
Eternal Error wrote:
Noisrevbus wrote:


Basicly, it can kill Vagas like Vagas kill Frigates - with good piloting and support it deals well enough with Frigates too.

.

Competent vagabond pilot should kill a competent talos pilot.


Eh nope, unless the Vaga pilot has a specific anti Talos scram fit, he will die.

In order to keep within damage range the Vaga must keep his MWD on, the Talos with CN loaded constantly burning with 3x the cap life would melt it in no time, massive sig on the Vaga is what makes it possible, tracking is literally no issue at all.
Noisrevbus
#120 - 2012-12-16 00:35:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
Liang Nuren wrote:

Ed: Also, if Vagas are extremely easy to catch and kill... then so is your Talos. Because your "overwhelming DPS" isn't really going to save you.


Finally!

That comment helped so much.

It's even easier to catch and kill the Talos, and that's when you hit my side of the discussion again.

That is the problem.


Scope: The ships

The problem with the Talos isn't that it's "super OP and nothing can kill it" (no such ships exist in EVE imho). The problem with the Talos is that it is too offensively allround competent for it's "position" in the game. It breaks a fundamental part of overall ship balance and game design in EVE centered around rock-paper-scissor-lizard-spock.

It's problem is that it has malbalanced features which ultimately make people up-engage less and thus shoot each other less on scenes of relevance; because EVE is not built around equal numbers.

The Talos die even easier than the Vaga to what can be described as the "bottom" of cost-effect in the game. The Talos itself is part of that "bottom" and it creates a situation where more Talos is overblown better than fewer Talos. More Talos is overblown better than fewer Vagas. More Talos against most things in the game is much better than Vagas are at down-engaging. It's worse at up-engaging but better at down-engaging, which is the problem with it. That's horrible design.

Do you get what my sulky rants were all about now Liang?

It is counter-emergent design. It's easier to "gank" but more difficult to "goodfight" with, so we impose stupid limitations on ourselves such as limiting our regional attention ("lowsec-for-lowsec-players"), target pools ("everyone is a blob") and module interaction (ECM-hate etc.). We get more risk-adverse. Larger groups will blap your support and then control you with theirs. You will have to pick fights with larger caution (risk-adversity) because repairing an ill-advised engagement (disengage, regroup) is more difficult. Simply being in the same system put you at more risk, risk of being camped in etc.


Scope: All ships

It's just a terrible design-idea to have powerful glass cannons of such immense offensive prowess that eradicate counters-to-trends by enacting counters-to-counters-and-trends, while they cost next to nothing (tech I fit, yet still maintain such powerful features) or still maintain a tier 2 BC-level cost-effect performance (when tech II fit) and outperform more expensive ships in similar roles by a wide margin because they are twice as good at the "role" but worse at the "peripherals" that enabled functionality.

The same goes for recent changes to Logi-cruisers etc. It's just too powerful tools at no expense and while they will be fun these first few months they will ultimately stagnate the game over the comming year(s), because they can not contend with the "bottom" same as the Talos. Just like the Talos is worse than the Vaga in it's peripheral features, so is the Scythe worse than the Scimi at similar features. So they inexpense with the "bottom" but they have worse performance and will remain in some play-at-war level that create stagnance by obscuring the more expensive options, and tear the rift between different player groups (there is less incentive for players in Amamake to do something else).


Scope: Player reception

You may personally enjoy or be content with staying in one specific area and interacting with one specific subset of content in an isolated pocket of peers. However, it is detrimental for the game at large to have a polarisation of it's gameplay. It's a sandbox, we're all meant to share the sandbox and interact. Talos #uck interaction, so i hate them.

Hating them doesn't stop me from owning them or using them though, that would be shooting myself in the foot. It's similar to large coalitions arms-racing (bi-literally, as the limb) despite today gradually realizing the implications of it.

CCP are reproducing everything that was wrong with the Drake (while nerfing the perfectly acceptable sides of the Drake and not dealing with the true problem that hull and class was facing). I know it sounds very doom-prophetic, but essentially: They're turning everything into the "Drake" (not the Drake, but the "Drake", the roots of all issues and complaints regarding it's popularity). Take a score of Thorax with Execs and you will contend with any Deimos-Oneiros gang out there (they don't wanna fight you, because the risk-reward of doing so is completely up-ended). You will scare the risk-encouragement out of the smaller-ganged Proteus pilots out there creating content and so forth - but you will not contend with the proverbial "Drake" or "bottom". Wether that bottom is a sizable fleet of Drakes, Talos or Baddon/Rokh/Mael, or blap Dreads/Carriers. You do nothing to shake up the hegemony of buffer-projection, in fact, you obscure the few options that had potential to interact with it out-of-box - same as the tier 3 BC did.

Tier 3 BC also had a couple of months of shaking up the game before everyone caught on and incorporated it. Now, small gangs in those ships limit their target pools more than they did before: because they "die more easily", as you said.

Do see the larger implications now?