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Falcon's = Combat Killer

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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
#41 - 2012-12-15 14:21:52 UTC
OkaskiKali wrote:
Everything about the falcon makes it overpowered. Cloak for 1, how easy it is for them to sit at range and to render someone completely defenseless. anything cruiser class and below once committed is dead.
If you're killed by a Falcon, you have other problems you should look into first.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2012-12-15 14:23:21 UTC
Pohbis wrote:
OkaskiKali wrote:
Everything about the falcon makes it overpowered. Cloak for 1, how easy it is for them to sit at range and to render someone completely defenseless. anything cruiser class and below once committed is dead.
If you're killed by a Falcon, you have other problems you should look into first.

well, it might be because of the 3 light drones the falcon can carry.Shocked

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#43 - 2012-12-15 14:24:04 UTC
There seems to be a group of people in this game who think that gangs should consist entirely of unsupported DPS ships with no gang links, cynos, probing alts or any other thing that a smart person might use to gain an advantage and that combat should consist of two of these gangs flying at each other for no reason other than because they want to fight.

Those guys should probably go join RvB or something.
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-12-15 14:34:02 UTC
Amarra Mandalin wrote:
Malphilos wrote:
Amarra Mandalin wrote:
[quote=Malphilos][quote=Amarra Mandalin]


Also, you don't have to buy a second account. Albeit it is a bit of a pain. Another option is to join a corp or pair up with someone.


(1) Do something else
(2) Buy another account and do something else.

Not sure how you think the context has changed.


When you quit reposting the same gibberish with an alt, I might answer. It's pretty obvious to PvPers. [Edit] Thinking persons.


This is always me, not sure why you think an avatar picture would make a difference. And the "gibberish" is just me copying what you've said. [Edit] Not my problem.

What you're proposing is akin to a plan for putting out a house fire that involves only preventing the fire from happening. That plan, while valid and probably effective for the purpose of preventing a fire, completely fails to address the issue at hand.

If what you're saying is: "Sorry, nothing to do but be somewhere else in that situation", that's fine. But to pretend it addresses the issue of what to do when you are there is ridiculous.
SlapNuts
Lost Wacko's
#45 - 2012-12-15 14:38:23 UTC
lol @ jumping into a system with a lone bubbler on the gate and engaging him thinking he is alone....

you jump into a system and see that, if there is no one else in local then ya go for it, if there is another pilot in that system always assume he is with your target.

You need to use your head and not complain something in this game needs to be fixed because you are not able to understand your situation and die because of that lack of intellect.

falcons are fine
Amarra Mandalin
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#46 - 2012-12-15 14:52:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarra Mandalin
Malphilos wrote:


If what you're saying is: "Sorry, nothing to do but be somewhere else in that situation", that's fine. But to pretend it addresses the issue of what to do when you are there is ridiculous.


Scouting, trying a different ship/tactic next time, etc....all ridiculous.
Confirmed.

So is your problem with me or ECM or both? In both cases, you've not presented anything logical to respond to. Oh wait...
Gibbo5771
AQUILA INC
#47 - 2012-12-15 15:05:45 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Gibbo5771 wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
not these threads again.

let's take another swing at it.


warp jammers/scrammers = combat killers. I can't get out of an engagement with my ship and so I lose.
or
target painters = combat killers. It'll make me take more damage and die faster and so I lose.
or
energy neuts = combat killers. It'll kill my cap and I won't be able to do jack as long as I have cap-based modules and so I lose.
or
TD's = combat killers. It'll make me hit for **** and I won't be able to do enough damage and so I lose.
or
damps = combat killers . It'll make me unable to target stuff at longer ranges and so I won't be able to do jack and so I lose.

omfg, this means one thing only! EWAR IS BAD FOR PVP SO THEY ALL MUST BE NERFED TO HELL AND BACK/REMOVED FROM GAME.


Warp "jammers/scrammers do not cease the use of your weaponry/offensive modules

Target painters do not cease the use of your weaponry/offensive modules

Neuts can be 100% countered with a cap booster

TD's can be countered with manual piloting and smart use of transversal

Damps can be countered by getting closer to the target

ECM can MAYBE be counter by ECCM, while everything else has a guranteed counter, ECM does not.

Webbed? Get out of web range or kill the webber, even better MWD away if possible. Or try and neut it off.
Scrammed? Use your own tackle to try and break the scram, neut or kill the scrammer. Or try and neut it off.
TD'd? Get closer if optimal scripted, if tracking becomes an issue manual pilot to try and increase damage. Or try and neut it off
Neuted? Use a cap booster with good timing to gain enough cap to keep guns/tank active. Fit a nos.
Damped? Get closer to the target if possible, if not kill other things near you and accept the death.
TP's? Move faster, neut it off or even better find a ship that actually fits a TP and dont engage it.
ECM? Dont engage with it on field, wont engage with it within 100km. Or burn away, the only ship class capable of burning out of its range within a respectable time frame is a frig, which btw from personal experience can be jammed right out to the Falcons max lock range. Which funny enough means it can just rewarp to the guy thats chasing you.

Anyone that really argues that ECM is fine, is either someone who flys with ECM or flies in a gang so large that you have an MWD and guns with every other slot empty and still not die.

ECM'ed? move out of range. those things got a range nerf, and it's not like they have a huge life expectancy in a battlefield anwyays.

you lost to a gang with ECM? he was better prepared than you. just because you have MOAR WEAPONZ! doesn't mean you can win all day.

people brought ECM to counter your single solo-ship? well, that's called "risk aversion" and it's an innate human trait. you don't fight a losing battle unless you're backed to a corner, so why should I bring a knife into a fight? I'll bring a friggin' nuke and **** you up from orbit.


You are completely oblivious to how ECM is actually used in a fight aren't you?
You have already started the fight, a tackler rushes you and then suddenly Falcon before you realise it, perma jammed, scrammed...left for dead. You are pretty ******* stupid imo by thinking that a gang bringing ECM was more prepared, they are not more prepared just a lot less skill orientated and more catered towards the "killmails" mean everything playstyle that most of eve really needs to move away from.

You ever actually fought solo vs a gang with a Falcon? or even better in a duo vs a gang with a Falcon, there is so very very little you can do to avoid being jammed, one is do not engage while the other is move out of range of the Falcon. I have been perma jammed in a Talos from 100km, more than once.

You do the math and tell me what happens when a Falcon decloaks 50km away, it takes another 50km to MAYBE get out of jam range. It will take you 29 seconds doing 1.7km/s to get out of the possible jam range of the Falcon, presuming he is sitting still. It however only takes a ceptor 6 seconds to get within point range and 9 to get a scram. This means when the Falcon decloaks you need to either A) not be tackled by anything faster than you and B) no fast tackle coming/on you. Which btw 90% of the time is not possible, in order to tackle you must be tackled back, putting you at risk from the Falcon in pretty much every single engagement. This pretty much goes for anything that kites, anything that brawls is pretty much in a 100% guaranteed position of complete disadvantage if a falcon decloaks 50km away, to the point that you literally can not do ANYTHING to prevent the jamming, even the counter module ECCM only reduces the CHANCE of getting jammed, which counts for nothing if you have 6 jammers slapped on you.

Falcons are useless vs a big gang, however bring it against 1-2 targets and it can turn an already one sided 1/2 vs 10+ into a basic instawin, even more so if one of is already tackled.

Only time a Falcon has not become a problem for me solo is a stupidly fit one with tackle/multispecs, or lands @ zero, panics and fails to even jam/warp.
Varesk
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2012-12-15 15:16:00 UTC
train the new sensor comp. skills the put in to the game during the last patch.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2012-12-15 15:22:43 UTC
Gibbo5771 wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
Gibbo5771 wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
not these threads again.

let's take another swing at it.


warp jammers/scrammers = combat killers. I can't get out of an engagement with my ship and so I lose.
or
target painters = combat killers. It'll make me take more damage and die faster and so I lose.
or
energy neuts = combat killers. It'll kill my cap and I won't be able to do jack as long as I have cap-based modules and so I lose.
or
TD's = combat killers. It'll make me hit for **** and I won't be able to do enough damage and so I lose.
or
damps = combat killers . It'll make me unable to target stuff at longer ranges and so I won't be able to do jack and so I lose.

omfg, this means one thing only! EWAR IS BAD FOR PVP SO THEY ALL MUST BE NERFED TO HELL AND BACK/REMOVED FROM GAME.


Warp "jammers/scrammers do not cease the use of your weaponry/offensive modules

Target painters do not cease the use of your weaponry/offensive modules

Neuts can be 100% countered with a cap booster

TD's can be countered with manual piloting and smart use of transversal

Damps can be countered by getting closer to the target

ECM can MAYBE be counter by ECCM, while everything else has a guranteed counter, ECM does not.

Webbed? Get out of web range or kill the webber, even better MWD away if possible. Or try and neut it off.
Scrammed? Use your own tackle to try and break the scram, neut or kill the scrammer. Or try and neut it off.
TD'd? Get closer if optimal scripted, if tracking becomes an issue manual pilot to try and increase damage. Or try and neut it off
Neuted? Use a cap booster with good timing to gain enough cap to keep guns/tank active. Fit a nos.
Damped? Get closer to the target if possible, if not kill other things near you and accept the death.
TP's? Move faster, neut it off or even better find a ship that actually fits a TP and dont engage it.
ECM? Dont engage with it on field, wont engage with it within 100km. Or burn away, the only ship class capable of burning out of its range within a respectable time frame is a frig, which btw from personal experience can be jammed right out to the Falcons max lock range. Which funny enough means it can just rewarp to the guy thats chasing you.

Anyone that really argues that ECM is fine, is either someone who flys with ECM or flies in a gang so large that you have an MWD and guns with every other slot empty and still not die.

ECM'ed? move out of range. those things got a range nerf, and it's not like they have a huge life expectancy in a battlefield anwyays.

you lost to a gang with ECM? he was better prepared than you. just because you have MOAR WEAPONZ! doesn't mean you can win all day.

people brought ECM to counter your single solo-ship? well, that's called "risk aversion" and it's an innate human trait. you don't fight a losing battle unless you're backed to a corner, so why should I bring a knife into a fight? I'll bring a friggin' nuke and **** you up from orbit.


You are completely oblivious to how ECM is actually used in a fight aren't you?
You have already started the fight, a tackler rushes you and then suddenly Falcon before you realise it, perma jammed, scrammed...left for dead. You are pretty ******* stupid imo by thinking that a gang bringing ECM was more prepared, they are not more prepared just a lot less skill orientated and more catered towards the "killmails" mean everything playstyle that most of eve really needs to move away from.

You ever actually fought solo vs a gang with a Falcon? or even better in a duo vs a gang with a Falcon, there is so very very little you can do to avoid being jammed, one is do not engage while the other is move out of range of the Falcon. I have been perma jammed in a Talos from 100km, more than once.

You do the math and tell me what happens when a Falcon decloaks 50km away, it takes another 50km to MAYBE get out of jam range. It will take you 29 seconds doing 1.7km/s to get out of the possible jam range of the Falcon, presuming he is sitting still. It however only takes a ceptor 6 seconds to get within point range and 9 to get a scram. This means when the Falcon decloaks you need to either A) not be tackled by anything faster than you and B) no fast tackle coming/on you. Which btw 90% of the time is not possible, in order to tackle you must be tackled back, putting you at risk from the Falcon in pretty much every single engagement. This pretty much goes for anything that kites, anything that brawls is pretty much in a 100% guaranteed position of complete disadvantage if a falcon decloaks 50km away, to the point that you literally can not do ANYTHING to prevent the jamming, even the counter module ECCM only reduces the CHANCE of getting jammed, which counts for nothing if you have 6 jammers slapped on you.

Falcons are useless vs a big gang, however bring it against 1-2 targets and it can turn an already one sided 1/2 vs 10+ into a basic instawin, even more so if one of is already tackled.

Only time a Falcon has not become a problem for me solo is a stupidly fit one with tackle/multispecs, or lands @ zero, panics and fails to even jam/warp.

ok, the falcon appeared, so **** you, I won the fight because I nullified you.

your move?

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Thutmose I
Rattium Incorporated
#50 - 2012-12-15 15:23:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Thutmose I
OkaskiKali wrote:
Ok - a few years ago i remember CCP talking about the reason why they changes the doomsday affect from area to target specific.

I agreed with a lot of their thinking, titan AOE doomsdays killed battles.

I am finding that Falcons are in my opinion coming close to being "battle killers"; its relative ease at how it can sit cloaked, and then uncloak to jam targets to me is what is painful; some of the lamest tactics are at play here. sabre on gate go to engage uncloak falcon and sit for 30 + seconds and not be able to defend yourself is quite honestly a game killer.

I like to PVP and I have been using smaller ships since they have give me chest beating than using 250m ships - if i lose my small ship to a falcon jamming is less painful than losing a 250m ship. However, what ever the cost of ship - the falcon is quite honestly a battle killer. i guess this is coming from a point of view of a solo pvp'er but in any sized gang being able to not defend yourself against a falcon or for that matter a BB, is what for me is killing PVP.


They have already horribly nerfed the falcon once, i hope they do not do so again....

When was the last time you heard "Because of Falcon" used as an excuse for the loss of a battle?

edit: the new sensor skills also count as another minor nerf to it, as well as the further nerf to its range
Amarra Mandalin
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#51 - 2012-12-15 15:24:10 UTC
Gibbo5771 wrote:


You are completely oblivious to how ECM is actually used in a fight aren't you?
You have already started the fight, a tackler rushes you and then suddenly Falcon before you realise it, perma jammed, scrammed...left for dead. You are pretty ******* stupid imo by thinking that a gang bringing ECM was more prepared, they are not more prepared just a lot less skill orientated and more catered towards the "killmails" mean everything playstyle that most of eve really needs to move away from.

You ever actually fought solo vs a gang with a Falcon? or even better in a duo vs a gang with a Falcon, there is so very very little you can do to avoid being jammed, one is do not engage while the other is move out of range of the Falcon. I have been perma jammed in a Talos from 100km, more than once.



I love my Falcon pilot. After reading this, I want to train 3 more now.
Gibbo5771
AQUILA INC
#52 - 2012-12-15 15:29:36 UTC
Amarra Mandalin wrote:
Gibbo5771 wrote:


You are completely oblivious to how ECM is actually used in a fight aren't you?
You have already started the fight, a tackler rushes you and then suddenly Falcon before you realise it, perma jammed, scrammed...left for dead. You are pretty ******* stupid imo by thinking that a gang bringing ECM was more prepared, they are not more prepared just a lot less skill orientated and more catered towards the "killmails" mean everything playstyle that most of eve really needs to move away from.

You ever actually fought solo vs a gang with a Falcon? or even better in a duo vs a gang with a Falcon, there is so very very little you can do to avoid being jammed, one is do not engage while the other is move out of range of the Falcon. I have been perma jammed in a Talos from 100km, more than once.



I love my Falcon pilot. After reading this, I want to train 3 more now.


Just what I thought, the people defending it are regular users of the ship :p.

Hell I fly a Falcon on this character, not used it in a while tho. I mainly used it for lol's, trying to take down multiple BC's with an AF for instance.
Bohoba
#53 - 2012-12-15 15:30:39 UTC
Vaal Erit wrote:
OkaskiKali wrote:
You semi to have mis understood me.. you jump through a gate a sabre bubbles and when you have engaged the falcon jams you leaving you defenseless


Offenseless unless you are saying that falcons jam your tank modules as well?

Falcons are broken for small gangs but once you get to about 5-10 people in a fleet they become less and less a problem. Falcons are far easier to deal with than say cloaky t2 link alts or spider logistics.



:) ^^^ falcons suck

jamming sucks sometime it works most time it don't
Amarra Mandalin
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#54 - 2012-12-15 15:34:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarra Mandalin
Gibbo5771 wrote:
[quote=Amarra Mandalin][quote=Gibbo5771]

Just what I thought, the people defending it are regular users of the ship :p.



Well, yeah, I'm not going to defend a ship that sucks. :D

Though to be fair, my main targets have been 3+ logi chains...I miss out on lots of fun, when they're slow at breaking.
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2012-12-15 15:47:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Gillia Winddancer
This again Roll

If ECM was related to ship signature radius + sensor strength

A dampener reduces either range or lock-on speed. The latter affects a targets resolution.

ECM could work in a similar way but instead of resolution be based on strength. Constant effect just like all other electronic warfare modules.

Basically:

ECM strength + distance to target and all the usual factors VERSUS target sensor strength = Ships below X sig radius AND/OR outside Y distance cannot be locked on to. Preferably are also hidden from overview as an extra touch.

Basically ECM would work pretty much exactly the same way it does now if a target gets a big enough dose, but weaker doses of ECM will still allow the target to go for bigger ships.

Falcon would still be powerful as hell but it's disadvantage would be it's own size if the ECM is spread out too much. On the other hand, spreading out the ECM would be very favourable if you have lots of small ships alongside.

Basically, end result would be: more ECM on a single target in order to achieve identical effects to today's ECM (perhaps even more powerful than it is now considering it will not be chance based but constant). Spread out ECM however would unlike today, guaranteed affect multiple ships and aid small ships on your own side.

*edit*

Oh, and to the OP. Frankly, if you are solo and face off against the best ECM ship then yeah, I do think you should be in trouble with locking on regardless of how the ECM is designed.
OkaskiKali
Aussie Carebear OverLords
#56 - 2012-12-15 17:19:18 UTC  |  Edited by: OkaskiKali
I see a lot of stuff in here i agree with and i also see things i agree with that go against my point.

Having read all of the posts - i still have the opinion that tthe Falcon is a ship that does nothing but kill small and solo pvp.

I've used the ship and was heart broken when it was nerfed around the time of the nano nerf but none the less it needed to happen.

But and i want you to pay attention:

If we classified a class of ship "the titan" as being the decision for a gang and fleet engaging each other; then my decision from now on will be NOT to engage people where local count is 2 and I have a visual on 1 person who is a sabre sat on a gate.

Anyone who pertains this choice of fleet doctrine to be "Prepared" is having a laugh. there is no preparation needed to fit a Black Bird, Falcon or Kittsune and sit them 50km. The only difffernce is the BB and Kistune are visible in my overview and i can decide whether to engage or not.

Some may argue the arazu is a battle killere becuase of its damping ability the difference if a arazu engages you still have the ability to get out and the pilot of the arazu needs to make judgements on whether to continue the engagement. A falcon has no other decision to make once the battle ensue's.
OkaskiKali
Aussie Carebear OverLords
#57 - 2012-12-15 17:26:39 UTC
Gillia Winddancer wrote:


Oh, and to the OP. Frankly, if you are solo and face off against the best ECM ship then yeah, I do think you should be in trouble with locking on regardless of how the ECM is designed.


I faced off against a sabre - thats what i saw in my overview.

take a look at my comments above ^ =====
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#58 - 2012-12-15 17:29:45 UTC
Djana Libra wrote:
because of falcon!


Came to post this.. Leaving satisfied.

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2012-12-15 19:27:57 UTC
OkaskiKali wrote:
Gillia Winddancer wrote:


Oh, and to the OP. Frankly, if you are solo and face off against the best ECM ship then yeah, I do think you should be in trouble with locking on regardless of how the ECM is designed.


I faced off against a sabre - thats what i saw in my overview.

take a look at my comments above ^ =====


I was under the impression that the Falcon was with the Sabre that you faced? Or did I misread somewhere?
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#60 - 2012-12-15 19:43:44 UTC
Back Up array for shield tank
ECCM for armor

Train the new skills for sensors.

Falcons are on the way out. Cheap T1 cruisers with null sec suicide fits are going to make them too costly to lose.