These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Test Server Feedback

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Duality] NPC aggression against drones and Safety persistence changes

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
jonnykefka
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#21 - 2012-12-14 22:12:36 UTC  |  Edited by: jonnykefka
Since the new mission AI is just a variant of Sleeper AI (something which I have spent a fair amount of time dealing with), I have a guess as to what that variable everyone is getting so hot and bothered about is really doing. One of the factors that Sleepers take into account when selecting targets is how tanky the target is. If you fly into a Sleeper site with an undertanked ship that does a lot of damage, the Sleepers will generally try to wipe you off the field. If you have a lot of ships doing roughly the same DPS (or otherwise generating "threat") and one has less tank, that one will relatively reliably attract Sleeper aggro (usually when they get tired of trying to kill your logis).

So, my guess is that the "tanking multiplier" is just accounting for the mission AI making the same calculations for drones. Drones are naturally way less tanky than your ship but do a relatively large amount of damage/have a lot of "threat" for their miniscule tanks. Therefore, to stop their threat-to-tank ratio form becoming totally ridiculous and attracting perma-aggro (which I suspect is part of what's happening now), the new variable might be a generous multiplier that makes the AI "think" that the threat-to-tank ratio is a little closer to that of your average ship.

Also, if you guys want to make sure the AI hates you more than your drones, rep your drones or use ewar mods on the NPCs. If it's anything like sleeper AI, RR and EWAR generate a huge amount of threat.

EDIT: And as for the persistent safety, assuming no egregious flaws are found how soon can we expect that on TQ? All I want for xmas is my safety to say in the "everything in my optimal dies" position.
Rengerel en Distel
#22 - 2012-12-14 22:20:10 UTC
No matter how many times I mention that I've used EWAR, and it wasn't enough to get aggro back, people who haven't tried it keep telling me it's the way to go. I have no idea about RR, but I believe that might be a good way, since CCP said it worked for them, and made the afk drone boats the best option.

Unless they want to make a drone RR module that can go out 50km or so, most actual mission boats aren't going to use RR.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe
#23 - 2012-12-15 00:12:56 UTC
Without reducing signature drones will die anyway when > 10km away and NPC decides to target them so explain to my why I should bother to test ?

I am perfectly serious.
Rengerel en Distel
#24 - 2012-12-15 00:16:31 UTC
Louis deGuerre wrote:
Without reducing signature drones will die anyway when > 10km away and NPC decides to target them so explain to my why I should bother to test ?

I am perfectly serious.


To test how often it happens? I really don't care if they target drones as long as there is a reliable way to get the aggro back beyond simply recalling the drones. Realistically, in a way that PVE ships would be fit for, like a TP, TD, whatever.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-12-15 03:14:38 UTC
Briefly tested (sadly, didn't have time for anything serious), and results felt very inconclusive.

In one mission (L1), the frigs switched to drones (small) when I was flying a Tristan. It made it back alive, but was in structure, that's from 20km away from the ship. No Algos were available, so I didn't test it.

Then I ran a couple L2s in a Vexor. Nothing even looked at drones. In both cases, I had the most primitive fitting - active armor tank, cap-stable (so I could leave it AFK for 10 mins to see what happens).

In the last test, I had my Vexor and one remaining cruiser. I turned off my guns, and got aggro and deployed light drones, light ones, not mediums. They started breaking down the tank, very slowly. Took about 10-12 mins for them to do it (Hobgoblin IIs vs Angel cruiser, not a good match), and drones didn't get any aggro from what I saw (I kept seeing the enemy plinking at me with his turrets as I orbited around 1km away).

So, when it comes to a medium ship ignoring small drones, I guess it works. Small ships are still more than enough to take on and potentially take out small drones though. Like I said (first test), most frigs turned on them and nearly killed one, just sheer luck it made it back. As far as I can tell, problem of drone survival is still not solved, not even close. Too much "equal size" DPS in missions still so that drones are under serious threat.

And since we still can't see when they're being targeted, only when they actually start taking damage, it's a bit late by then.

Will need to test with EWAR (TP, damps, whatever) to see how that affects things, but didn't have the time tonight.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#26 - 2012-12-15 03:20:09 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Louis deGuerre wrote:
Without reducing signature drones will die anyway when > 10km away and NPC decides to target them so explain to my why I should bother to test ?

I am perfectly serious.


To test how often it happens? I really don't care if they target drones as long as there is a reliable way to get the aggro back beyond simply recalling the drones. Realistically, in a way that PVE ships would be fit for, like a TP, TD, whatever.



Do you seriously think that many mission ships have the flexibility to give up a mid-slot for EWAR?
That has been one of the worst fallacies posted by people trying to derail the reality for the vast majority of fits.

I run missions in either a passive shield tanked/speed tanked Ishtar or active armour tanked Proteus.
I give up a mid-slot of the Ishtar, I have zero survivability in any heavy DPS mission.
I give up a mid-slot in the Proteus, and I give up any chance at cap stability, meaning death or a lot of warp outs, or targeting NPC's at any distance.

And don't give me that crap "adapt or die".
There is no amount of fit adaption that will allow either of those ships to survive.

I would also just love to see a many shield Mach runners are excited about giving up a mid-slot and still being survivable.

Bottom line, any mission runnner optimizes their fit for maximum survivability or maximizing income.
Anything that forces an alteration reduces one or both of those objectives.

And then this becomes what this was always about: A PLANNED nerf to mission running income.
It may even extend to be a PLANNED nerf to all PvE income, but I am unsure how much this newest travesty on Duality affects null sec plexes.

CCP never had the guts to say "we want to cut your PvE income in half, but we are leaving static sources like moon goo alone", but thought it could slip it in through the back door.
John Henke
Decompression Services
#27 - 2012-12-15 09:25:52 UTC
I just finished some missions with my CNR. I had no difficulties.

I used hobgoblin II and hammerhead II as drones and a TP and a heavy NOS as EWAR-modules.

In the following missions my drones haven't been aggroed by the NPC: Cargo Delivery (I didn'tblitz.), The Right Hand Of Zazzmatazz, Intercept The Saboteurs, The Damsel In Distress

The last three missions i did on TQ and i had to look after my drones more carefully, because they got aggro, as it was to be expected.

In Pirate Invasion the drones have been aggroed after some minutes (the hammerheads by cruisers, the hobgoblins by frigates). After a relaunch they didn't get aggro a second time. I was even able to pull back a hobgoblin, which seemed to have been webbed by one NPC-frigate.

In this mission on TQ my drones got more aggro and i lost a hobgoblin.

Afterall i think things get easier with this change.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#28 - 2012-12-15 09:39:37 UTC
John Henke wrote:
I just finished some missions with my CNR. I had no difficulties.

I used hobgoblin II and hammerhead II as drones and a TP and a heavy NOS as EWAR-modules.

In the following missions my drones haven't been aggroed by the NPC: Cargo Delivery (I didn'tblitz.), The Right Hand Of Zazzmatazz, Intercept The Saboteurs, The Damsel In Distress

The last three missions i did on TQ and i had to look after my drones more carefully, because they got aggro, as it was to be expected.

In Pirate Invasion the drones have been aggroed after some minutes (the hammerheads by cruisers, the hobgoblins by frigates). After a relaunch they didn't get aggro a second time. I was even able to pull back a hobgoblin, which seemed to have been webbed by one NPC-frigate.

In this mission on TQ my drones got more aggro and i lost a hobgoblin.

Afterall i think things get easier with this change.


Please provide the precise fit that you used.
I can fly any subcap in the game, and what like to try to duplicate your results.
What impact did this have on your ISK / tick?
Mund Richard
#29 - 2012-12-15 09:58:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I can fly any subcap in the game, and what like to try to duplicate your results.
What impact did this have on your ISK / tick?

Wait, now you are making a post I could also make myself?
(almost)

Your examples with the Proteus (3 mids) and the shield mach (... because more lows than mids means PERFECT for shield tanking, there ain't no problem with armor tanking amIrite?Roll) I felt head on, the Ishtar... well, I have no idea how I would fit it for a mission with a TP (only against hybrid gunners, active gist?).

Anyways, back on the CNR, it's pretty much perfect for the new drone AI:
It needs (or at least usually has in most capable fittings) a target painter or two, and has the non-bonused highslots for a NOS (since you don't need it for drone range extenders for sentries anyways).


So I do take his word, that a ship that was just ideal with at least one of the cookie-cutter build for this new AI business.
In fact, when I went against rats on a raven myself on TQ, I had barely any problems as well.
Spare highslot and spare/defaultEWAR mid FTW!

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Avalon Stormborn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-12-15 10:21:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Avalon Stormborn
Should just make it so drone ships have a role bonus where drones are safe, or atleast a lot less aggro chance, and that other ships that aren't drone based still have to manage their drones a bit better.

As it works now, a drone based ships are rendered pretty hopeless for missions, whereas normal ships can still rely on their guns to get the job done.

I don't know, I just want it fixed in a way that drone ships aren't gimped anymore.

Perhaps add a new highslot that removes drone aggro?
John Henke
Decompression Services
#31 - 2012-12-15 10:48:46 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


...

Please provide the precise fit that you used.
I can fly any subcap in the game, and what like to try to duplicate your results.
What impact did this have on your ISK / tick?


I used this fit:

[Raven Navy Issue, Mercenaries]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Large Shield Booster II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
True Sansha Heavy Nosferatu

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

Sorry, i didn't wrote down the exact times and ticks of the missions.

Of course the CNR really is pretty perfect for missionrunning with the new AI. I was on the other hand surprised, that the drone-handling was (much) easier compared to TQ.
Mund Richard
#32 - 2012-12-15 10:59:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Avalon Stormborn wrote:
Should just make it so drone ships have a role bonus where drones are safe, or atleast a lot less aggro chance, and that other ships that aren't drone based still have to manage their drones a bit better.
As it works now, a drone based ships are rendered pretty hopeless for missions, whereas normal ships can still rely on their guns to get the job done.
I don't know, I just want it fixed in a way that drone ships aren't gimped anymore.
Perhaps add a new highslot that removes drone aggro?

I don't think that is a good solution.
It still messes up folk who use large long range guns quite bad, as they rely on their drones just as much as drone ships to get rid of rat frigs.
Rail Hyper comes to mind.
(Personally I'd rather use the uglier Navy Mega with the added dronebay, bandwidth, tracking and lows, but I know at least one person who cannot give up on the pretty that is the Hyperion.)

John Henke wrote:
Sorry, i didn't wrote down the exact times and ticks of the missions.

Of course the CNR really is pretty perfect for missionrunning with the new AI. I was on the other hand surprised, that the drone-handling was (much) easier compared to TQ.
DDA in the low, I like that!
The rest is pretty much how I imagined it to be, so not surprised.
In fact, getting almost the same ticks as on TQ pre-expansion with that fit wouldn't surprise me much.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#33 - 2012-12-15 11:15:44 UTC
John Henke wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


...

Please provide the precise fit that you used.
I can fly any subcap in the game, and what like to try to duplicate your results.
What impact did this have on your ISK / tick?


I used this fit:

[Raven Navy Issue, Mercenaries]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Large Shield Booster II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
True Sansha Heavy Nosferatu

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

Sorry, i didn't wrote down the exact times and ticks of the missions.

Of course the CNR really is pretty perfect for missionrunning with the new AI. I was on the other hand surprised, that the drone-handling was (much) easier compared to TQ.


Thanks, this weekend I will try to get the emotional strength to log on and fit one out.
To be honest, in November when we screamed CCP paid lip service to what we said, and altered null sec plexes to be easier, and supposedly eased the AI aggro, but we all know exactly what that meant.

I have absolutely zero faith that CCP will listen to any feedback this time either, and this is just another PR stunt to say "we listened to our customers".

BTW, why is the Pandemic Legion developer now speaking about the AI. What happened to Fox Four?
Mund Richard
#34 - 2012-12-15 11:39:20 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

To be honest, in November when we screamed CCP paid lip service to what we said, and altered null sec plexes to be easier, and supposedly eased the AI aggro, but we all know exactly what that meant.
One thing that possibly wasn't quite meant to be fixed, another that would have 100% broken things altered.
Not yet conspiracy level.
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have absolutely zero faith that CCP will listen to any feedback this time either, and this is just another PR stunt to say "we listened to our customers".
We shall see.
Complain about it afterwards, not beforehand.
I do have a fear that we indeed shall see, but may I be wrong as well.
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
BTW, why is the Pandemic Legion developer now speaking about the AI. What happened to Fox Four?
Oh, you are right, it's that guy from the New Eden Open!
Quite curious myself.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Ranen Sol
Tax Dodge Corp
#35 - 2012-12-15 15:25:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranen Sol
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Ran a couple of missions to test things out a bit.

Level 2 with a vexor, T1 lights. The npcs switched to the drones as on TQ. 4 Turrets hitting and a TD weren't able to reclaim aggro. For the most part, the damage was light on the drones, but there were only 2 or 3 npcs hitting, plus the vexor has a drone hp bonus. Overall, I didn't see any difference in the drone hate. They were all frigs and cruisers, and would switch to the drones every once in awhile. It wasn't the 2 minute amount people claim with Sleepers.

Level 4 blockade in a rattlesnake. Killing the battleships, never had them switch to sentries. The cruisers eventually switched to the sentries, though damage is hard to say, because the rattlesnake has a drone hp bonus too. Recalling the sentries and relaunching them, the cruisers would switch back again quicker than the 2 minutes. When the drones got aggro, cruise missiles and a TP weren't enough to get aggro back.

From just limited testing, the hate might be slightly less, but it wasn't noticeable in just 2 short tests. There still doesn't appear to be a way to get the aggro back besides recalling your drones or letting it die. That seems to be the most important part, having some method to get aggro back to the ship and off the drones.


Actually before I start telling you what i think, is the testing above being done on the test server?
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#36 - 2012-12-15 15:57:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief
More testing this morning.

Parameters: Rattlesnake with passive tank.
Targets: 3x frigates (Coreli Protectors), 2x destroyers (Corelior Sentinels). Later just 3x frigates.
Drones: T2 Gallente, always set to passive.

First 2 tests did NOT involve EWAR. Test 3 and on I began to use 1x TP.

Test 1:
Gained aggro. Waited 60 seconds. Deployed Sentries. Sentries began taking damage.
Gained aggro. Waited 60 seconds. Deployed Heavies. Heavies began taking damage.
Gained aggro. Waited 60 seconds. Deployed Mediums. Mediums began taking damage.
(did not test lights, screwed up, sorry).

Conclusion: Frigs and dessies attack all sizes (except small, didn't test, again sorry!)

Test 2:
Started by killing 2x Destroyers, further tests against 3x Frigates only.
Gained Aggro. Waited 60 seconds. Deployed Sentries. No aggro after 5 mins.
Gained Aggro. Waited 60 seconds. Deployed Heavies. Heavies began taking aggro.
Gained Aggro. Waited 60 seconds. Deployed Mediums. Mediums began taking aggro.
Gained Aggro. Waited 60 seconds. Deployed Lights. No aggro after 5 mins.

Conclusions (tentative?):
- Destroyers do attack Sentries
- Frigs do not attack Sentries
- Frigs attack heavies, mediums, but not size-appropriate lights

The stats of the ships from DB dump:

  • Coreli Protector (Frigate)
  • AI_TankingModifierDrone: 0.5 => 0.7
    • [+] AI_IgnoreDronesBelowSignatureRadius: 50.0

  • Corelior Sentinel (Destroyer)
  • AI_TankingModifierDrone: 0.5 => 0.7
    • [+] AI_IgnoreDronesBelowSignatureRadius: 50.0

    Makes no sense. Both Destroyers and Frigates have identical drone-related stats. Yet, destroying Destroyers stopped sentries from being attacked (frigates wouldn't touch them). Destroyer size of the hull allows them to attack Sentries as "size appropriate"?

    Test 3:
    In this test, against same 3x Frigs, I began using the TP, but only immediately after drones pulled aggro.
    Gained Aggro. Waited 60 seconds. Deployed Sentries. No aggro after 5 mins.
    Gained Aggro. Waited 60 seconds. Deployed Heavies. Heavies began taking aggro, allowed to remain, destroyed.
    Gained Aggro. Waited 60 seconds. Deployed Mediums. Mediums began taking aggro, allowed to remain, destroyed.
    Gained Aggro. Waited 60 seconds. Deployed Lights. No aggro after 5 mins.

    Conclusion: In all cases, activating TP the moment drones took aggro was NOT sufficient to stop drone loss under what I consider "normal mission conditions".

    Test 4:
    In this test, I kept TP running permanently. Deplyed drones, and kept TP running.
    Gained Aggro. Activated TP. Waited 60 seconds. Deployed Sentries. No aggro after 5 mins.
    Gained Aggro. Activated TP. Waited 60 seconds. Deployed Heavies. Incomplete aggro, drone loss.
    Gained Aggro. Activated TP. Waited 60 seconds. Deployed Mediums. Incomplete aggro, drone loss.
    Gained Aggro. Activated TP. Waited 60 seconds. Deployed Lights. No aggro after 5 mins.

    Note: by "incomplete" aggro I mean I retained aggro from the frigate to which TP was applied. In previous tests, the "buzzer" of the NPC aggression timer sounded as all aggro was dropped from me and went to the drones. With TP running, buzzer never went off, so I retained aggro of at least one ship, while drones still died very quickly, suggesting 2 ships firing.

    Conclusion: single TP was insufficient to keep mediums and heavies alive. Lights still pulled no aggro. Sentries still pulled no aggro.

    Test 5:
    Only lights were deployed, and ordered to destroy 3 frigates. Drones did not pull aggro prior to destruction of all 3 frigs.

    Other notes:
    - Test was done on Duality, on Sat, Dec 15, between 2pm and 4pm server time.
    - Test location was first gate of "Intercept the Saboteurs", L4 vs Serpentis.
    - All targets were "locked" (by my ship) throughout the test, don't know if relevant.
    - All drones were Gallente T2 type, again don't know if relevant.
    - My ship did not have any modules running AT ALL, and no weapons active (but fitted and ready) for Tests 1 and 2, and only TP running (on and off for Test 3, permanent in Test 4) for Tests 3 and 4.

    Further testing coming up (I hope) after lunch.
    Solutio Letum
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #37 - 2012-12-15 16:30:13 UTC
    the problem is not drone aggro, its the drone UI system, your drones are sucha pain to take care of if you dont want to lose all your dps in no time that it degrades them in every ways unless you got a few more of them on board, things i think should fix the drone UI

    -Be able to note my drones per unit squads and wings, be able to make a hot key for each different units and wings, so basicly give my drone a number that i can make them get back in when i see them damaged, give me a hot key for each drones
    -make me able to lauch the drones i want tell me what drones are damaged in my drone bay
    -make a double hot key so i can press lets say Q + 1 for drone one and W + 1 for wing one and so on so i dont need some special second keyboard
    -id like to be able to know when one of my drones are being yello boxed or damaged or have an effect on them, its a part of the ship in -some ways so why not treat it the same
    -so i got drones in my drone bay why cant i have some repairs on them now? there should be a way to do it that make drone ships worth thinking off instead of a mega, make my dominix drone bay worth it | Suggestion:
    make drones that can only stay in the drone bay but that repair other drones inside when needed
    i dont think a module that repair drones on lowslots or meds or a rig would ever even be used, why im suggesting this.
    Jame Jarl Retief
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #38 - 2012-12-15 16:54:04 UTC
    OK, next test.

    Completed the mission, "intercept the Saboteurs", L4 vs Serpentis, leaving the following ships behind (under Targets). In the process, lost 1 light scout drone, to unknown enemy fire. With aggro coming from 3 groups (1 remained passive, 1 already dead), he got blapped before I could even react, never mind scoop him up.

    Ship: same Rattlesnake as before, passive shield tank.
    Targets:
    1x Destroyer (Colerior Sentinel, same as before, 13.5k ISK bounty)
    1x Cruiser (Corelatis Squad Leader, 135k ISK bounty)
    1x Battleship (Core Commodore, 431k ISK bounty)
    Note: All ships orbiting at 14, 5 and 6 km respectively.

    Test 1: Deploying passive drones.
    Got aggro. Waited 60 seconds. Deployed Sentries. No aggro after 5 mins.
    Got aggro. Waited 60 seconds. Deployed Heavies. No aggro after 5 mins.
    Got aggro. Waited 60 seconds. Deployed Mediums. No aggro after 5 mins.
    Got aggro. Waited 60 seconds. Deployed Lights. No aggro after 5 mins.

    Conclusions: Whisky - Tango - Foxtrot! Conflicts with previous test results.

    Test 2:: Deploying drones, ordering to attack.
    Got aggro. Waited 60 seconds. Deployer Lights. Ordered to attack Battleship. Recalled them as BS was in structure. No aggro. Note: Yes, 4x light T2s put a Core Commodore in structure, fairly easy and fairly fast, with 3x Drone Damage Amplifier IIs.

    Conclusion: No aggro from (heavy) damage to target BS. Stopped test to prevent target loss. Did not attempt on "squishier" targets, even with lights.

    Test 3: Deploying single drones, ordering to attack.
    Got Aggro. Waited 60 seconds. Deployed Sentry. Sentry unable to effectively track target BS. Very low damage. No aggro after 5 mins. Deployed 2 more sentries, each ordered to attack the two remaining ships. No damage, no aggro.

    At this point I realized AI is flawed and further testing without full warpout EACH time is pointless. Simply pulling in drones is insufficient. Going to start again in the next post. Sad
    Ranen Sol
    Tax Dodge Corp
    #39 - 2012-12-15 17:09:11 UTC
    Solutio Letum wrote:
    the problem is not drone aggro, its the drone UI system, your drones are sucha pain to take care of if you dont want to lose all your dps in no time that it degrades them in every ways unless you got a few more of them on board, things i think should fix the drone UI

    -Be able to note my drones per unit squads and wings, be able to make a hot key for each different units and wings, so basicly give my drone a number that i can make them get back in when i see them damaged, give me a hot key for each drones
    -make me able to lauch the drones i want tell me what drones are damaged in my drone bay
    -make a double hot key so i can press lets say Q + 1 for drone one and W + 1 for wing one and so on so i dont need some special second keyboard
    -id like to be able to know when one of my drones are being yello boxed or damaged or have an effect on them, its a part of the ship in -some ways so why not treat it the same
    -so i got drones in my drone bay why cant i have some repairs on them now? there should be a way to do it that make drone ships worth thinking off instead of a mega, make my dominix drone bay worth it | Suggestion:
    make drones that can only stay in the drone bay but that repair other drones inside when needed
    i dont think a module that repair drones on lowslots or meds or a rig would ever even be used, why im suggesting this.


    Um yes drone aggro is definitely the issue, while flying a CNR i've lost 4 Hamm Tech II's to HAC's (also with BS's aggroing from 50km away...) in "The Assault" L4, and another 4 were insta-popped (and i mean "Oh my drones have aggro, oh **** there goes 1, recall, oh there goes another, ah now they've got to the drone bay. Back to missiles it is then...") by Merc Wingmen who were orbiting 10km away while doing "Stop the Thief".

    And that's not counting the 20 or so Heavies i lost trying to mission with a RattleSnake before i sold it, or having to take out Sansha Berserkers in "The Rogue Slave Trader (1 of 2)" with my cruise missiles (in my CNR) because the moment my drones started attacking they got aggro and were popped.

    It's completely impossible to use drones in an effective manner in missions any more, and a little "tweaking" isn't going to cut it.
    CCP should remove the AI code like the cancer it is...
    Dinsdale Pirannha
    Pirannha Corp
    #40 - 2012-12-15 17:47:03 UTC
    Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
    OK, next test.

    Completed the mission, "intercept the Saboteurs", L4 vs Serpentis, leaving the following ships behind (under Targets). In the process, lost 1 light scout drone, to unknown enemy fire. With aggro coming from 3 groups (1 remained passive, 1 already dead), he got blapped before I could even react, never mind scoop him up.

    Ship: same Rattlesnake as before, passive shield tank.
    Targets:
    1x Destroyer (Colerior Sentinel, same as before, 13.5k ISK bounty)
    1x Cruiser (Corelatis Squad Leader, 135k ISK bounty)
    1x Battleship (Core Commodore, 431k ISK bounty)
    Note: All ships orbiting at 14, 5 and 6 km respectively.

    Test 1: Deploying passive drones.
    Got aggro. Waited 60 seconds. Deployed Sentries. No aggro after 5 mins.
    Got aggro. Waited 60 seconds. Deployed Heavies. No aggro after 5 mins.
    Got aggro. Waited 60 seconds. Deployed Mediums. No aggro after 5 mins.
    Got aggro. Waited 60 seconds. Deployed Lights. No aggro after 5 mins.

    Conclusions: Whisky - Tango - Foxtrot! Conflicts with previous test results.

    Test 2:: Deploying drones, ordering to attack.
    Got aggro. Waited 60 seconds. Deployer Lights. Ordered to attack Battleship. Recalled them as BS was in structure. No aggro. Note: Yes, 4x light T2s put a Core Commodore in structure, fairly easy and fairly fast, with 3x Drone Damage Amplifier IIs.

    Conclusion: No aggro from (heavy) damage to target BS. Stopped test to prevent target loss. Did not attempt on "squishier" targets, even with lights.

    Test 3: Deploying single drones, ordering to attack.
    Got Aggro. Waited 60 seconds. Deployed Sentry. Sentry unable to effectively track target BS. Very low damage. No aggro after 5 mins. Deployed 2 more sentries, each ordered to attack the two remaining ships. No damage, no aggro.

    At this point I realized AI is flawed and further testing without full warpout EACH time is pointless. Simply pulling in drones is insufficient. Going to start again in the next post. Sad


    Awesome format for providing results.
    I think anyone testing should use the same template.
    Thank you.