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An ingame tool to identify a Player or Corp Market Orders...
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1 - 2012-12-14 19:34:56 UTC

So, in F&I I proposed Financial Analysis Agents and Market Analysis Agents to identify the highest value Market orders and Contracts a Player or Corp has....

How might a Machiavellian Marketeer utilize this information? Is this something you could use for emergent game play? Would you feel threatened if this information on you were ascertainable?
Rainbow Moose
Perkone
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-12-14 22:16:22 UTC
Would I feel threatened if personal information that is supposed to be private became public for someone else to see?

Hell yes I would. The entire concept of the current market is predicated upon anonymity.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#3 - 2012-12-14 22:26:17 UTC
Rainbow Moose wrote:
Would I feel threatened if personal information that is supposed to be private became public for someone else to see?

Hell yes I would. The entire concept of the current market is predicated upon anonymity.


I disagree with the notion that our market is "predicated upon anonymity". The market is absolutely NOT anonymous... Anytime you buy or sell something, the buyer and seller are identified to the transaction participants.

There are many hidden aspects to the market.... which aren't revealed to third parties (unless you give away your API key). Making this more available opens up a lot of meta-gaming options... and that's generally a good thing...

Why do you feel your market orders, contracts, and Isk transfers is supposed to be private?
Clambumper June
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2012-12-15 15:21:49 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Rainbow Moose wrote:
Would I feel threatened if personal information that is supposed to be private became public for someone else to see?

Hell yes I would. The entire concept of the current market is predicated upon anonymity.


I disagree with the notion that our market is "predicated upon anonymity". The market is absolutely NOT anonymous... Anytime you buy or sell something, the buyer and seller are identified to the transaction participants.

There are many hidden aspects to the market.... which aren't revealed to third parties (unless you give away your API key). Making this more available opens up a lot of meta-gaming options... and that's generally a good thing...

Why do you feel your market orders, contracts, and Isk transfers is supposed to be private?


Because in the real world the information is not disclosed publicly. Do you honestly think that Pepsi Cola knows all of Coca Cola's contracts, who their distributors are, and how much Coke spent on bottling of the product. The answer is no. Look I understand the you think it would be nice to have everyone's little secrets of where they trade and how they handle their internal finances, but the design of the market follows real world market practices. Yes some information available in game should not be available like who was the buyer, but seller should definitely be available. When you go to the store there are a lot of soft drinks in the soda isle, you buy Coke cause you like the taste and that fancy red label. Coke is sold in a ton of different stores, if you buy 3 Cokes from 2 different stores, your receipt reminds you a week later where you spent your RL money. (Not the best example, but trying to deliver the point of visibility of who you purchase from is available in RL scenarios.)
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#5 - 2012-12-15 15:42:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Clambumper June wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Rainbow Moose wrote:
Would I feel threatened if personal information that is supposed to be private became public for someone else to see?

Hell yes I would. The entire concept of the current market is predicated upon anonymity.


I disagree with the notion that our market is "predicated upon anonymity". The market is absolutely NOT anonymous... Anytime you buy or sell something, the buyer and seller are identified to the transaction participants.

There are many hidden aspects to the market.... which aren't revealed to third parties (unless you give away your API key). Making this more available opens up a lot of meta-gaming options... and that's generally a good thing...

Why do you feel your market orders, contracts, and Isk transfers is supposed to be private?


Because in the real world the information is not disclosed publicly. Do you honestly think that Pepsi Cola knows all of Coca Cola's contracts, who their distributors are, and how much Coke spent on bottling of the product. The answer is no. Look I understand the you think it would be nice to have everyone's little secrets of where they trade and how they handle their internal finances, but the design of the market follows real world market practices. Yes some information available in game should not be available like who was the buyer, but seller should definitely be available. When you go to the store there are a lot of soft drinks in the soda isle, you buy Coke cause you like the taste and that fancy red label. Coke is sold in a ton of different stores, if you buy 3 Cokes from 2 different stores, your receipt reminds you a week later where you spent your RL money. (Not the best example, but trying to deliver the point of visibility of who you purchase from is available in RL scenarios.)


Some of it is disclosed publicly....

Many companies are legally required to disclose/provide quarterly public financial statements, especially publicly traded companies like Pepsi & Coca Cola. Now, the information disclosed publicly doesn't reveal all details, but reveals major financial activities.

Furthermore, in the end, all business is handled by people.... Have a contact at their bank... you can get an illegal copy of their account info. Have a contact at < insert law firm > and you can illegally acquire a copy of their contracts. Have a contact at < insert appropriate government agency > and you can get an illegal copy of their financial transactions. Hire a PI, and you can get all sorts of information on a person's dealings.... It really comes down to, who to bribe and how much will it cost you... not, this information isn't available...
Clambumper June
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-12-15 16:40:00 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Clambumper June wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Rainbow Moose wrote:
Would I feel threatened if personal information that is supposed to be private became public for someone else to see?

Hell yes I would. The entire concept of the current market is predicated upon anonymity.


I disagree with the notion that our market is "predicated upon anonymity". The market is absolutely NOT anonymous... Anytime you buy or sell something, the buyer and seller are identified to the transaction participants.

There are many hidden aspects to the market.... which aren't revealed to third parties (unless you give away your API key). Making this more available opens up a lot of meta-gaming options... and that's generally a good thing...

Why do you feel your market orders, contracts, and Isk transfers is supposed to be private?


Because in the real world the information is not disclosed publicly. Do you honestly think that Pepsi Cola knows all of Coca Cola's contracts, who their distributors are, and how much Coke spent on bottling of the product. The answer is no. Look I understand the you think it would be nice to have everyone's little secrets of where they trade and how they handle their internal finances, but the design of the market follows real world market practices. Yes some information available in game should not be available like who was the buyer, but seller should definitely be available. When you go to the store there are a lot of soft drinks in the soda isle, you buy Coke cause you like the taste and that fancy red label. Coke is sold in a ton of different stores, if you buy 3 Cokes from 2 different stores, your receipt reminds you a week later where you spent your RL money. (Not the best example, but trying to deliver the point of visibility of who you purchase from is available in RL scenarios.)


Some of it is disclosed publicly....

Many companies are legally required to disclose/provide quarterly public financial statements, especially publicly traded companies like Pepsi & Coca Cola. Now, the information disclosed publicly doesn't reveal all details, but reveals major financial activities.

Furthermore, in the end, all business is handled by people.... Have a contact at their bank... you can get an illegal copy of their account info. Have a contact at < insert law firm > and you can illegally acquire a copy of their contracts. Have a contact at < insert appropriate government agency > and you can get an illegal copy of their financial transactions. Hire a PI, and you can get all sorts of information on a person's dealings.... It really comes down to, who to bribe and how much will it cost you... not, this information isn't available...


Key phrase, illegal to obtain said information. Being caught with that information hurts your business and suffers heavy fines. Is this what you desire in EVE? Nice fancy Isk sink, bribe an agent to get information about another player or player corporations financial, contractual dealings and oh agent then turns around and slaps you with a 100 million or how about 1 billion isk fine for breaking trade commission rules. Sounds awesome, ship the feature and just send me your isk.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#7 - 2012-12-15 18:54:57 UTC
Clambumper June wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Clambumper June wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Rainbow Moose wrote:
Would I feel threatened if personal information that is supposed to be private became public for someone else to see?

Hell yes I would. The entire concept of the current market is predicated upon anonymity.


I disagree with the notion that our market is "predicated upon anonymity". The market is absolutely NOT anonymous... Anytime you buy or sell something, the buyer and seller are identified to the transaction participants.

There are many hidden aspects to the market.... which aren't revealed to third parties (unless you give away your API key). Making this more available opens up a lot of meta-gaming options... and that's generally a good thing...

Why do you feel your market orders, contracts, and Isk transfers is supposed to be private?


Because in the real world the information is not disclosed publicly. Do you honestly think that Pepsi Cola knows all of Coca Cola's contracts, who their distributors are, and how much Coke spent on bottling of the product. The answer is no. Look I understand the you think it would be nice to have everyone's little secrets of where they trade and how they handle their internal finances, but the design of the market follows real world market practices. Yes some information available in game should not be available like who was the buyer, but seller should definitely be available. When you go to the store there are a lot of soft drinks in the soda isle, you buy Coke cause you like the taste and that fancy red label. Coke is sold in a ton of different stores, if you buy 3 Cokes from 2 different stores, your receipt reminds you a week later where you spent your RL money. (Not the best example, but trying to deliver the point of visibility of who you purchase from is available in RL scenarios.)


Some of it is disclosed publicly....

Many companies are legally required to disclose/provide quarterly public financial statements, especially publicly traded companies like Pepsi & Coca Cola. Now, the information disclosed publicly doesn't reveal all details, but reveals major financial activities.

Furthermore, in the end, all business is handled by people.... Have a contact at their bank... you can get an illegal copy of their account info. Have a contact at < insert law firm > and you can illegally acquire a copy of their contracts. Have a contact at < insert appropriate government agency > and you can get an illegal copy of their financial transactions. Hire a PI, and you can get all sorts of information on a person's dealings.... It really comes down to, who to bribe and how much will it cost you... not, this information isn't available...


Key phrase, illegal to obtain said information. Being caught with that information hurts your business and suffers heavy fines. Is this what you desire in EVE? Nice fancy Isk sink, bribe an agent to get information about another player or player corporations financial, contractual dealings and oh agent then turns around and slaps you with a 100 million or how about 1 billion isk fine for breaking trade commission rules. Sounds awesome, ship the feature and just send me your isk.


A large percentage of business transactions (especially contracts) are ascertainable through completely LEGAL means...

And frankly, so what if something information is only ascertainable by illegal means... as long as the price of that information reflects the "legality" in ascertaining it.

In general, I see interesting metagaming options being opned with these features... and while it may be detrimental to the occasional victim, I think it generally is good for the game..

Debra Tao
Perkone
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-12-15 19:11:50 UTC
I think there are more important and interesting features to develop. One can think about the state of null sec or even improving further the tutorial for newbies.

What you are proposing would remove an important aspect of the market : finding niches. Discovering easily what successful traders are doing would just make them stop contributing to be low profile and avoid detection.

I don't think that would prevent spying at all, it's pretty easy to anchor a container and exchange things like that. So i don't see many new "metagaming options"...
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#9 - 2012-12-16 12:18:35 UTC
Clambumper June wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Rainbow Moose wrote:
Would I feel threatened if personal information that is supposed to be private became public for someone else to see?

Hell yes I would. The entire concept of the current market is predicated upon anonymity.


I disagree with the notion that our market is "predicated upon anonymity". The market is absolutely NOT anonymous... Anytime you buy or sell something, the buyer and seller are identified to the transaction participants.

There are many hidden aspects to the market.... which aren't revealed to third parties (unless you give away your API key). Making this more available opens up a lot of meta-gaming options... and that's generally a good thing...

Why do you feel your market orders, contracts, and Isk transfers is supposed to be private?


Because in the real world the information is not disclosed publicly. Do you honestly think that Pepsi Cola knows all of Coca Cola's contracts, who their distributors are, and how much Coke spent on bottling of the product. The answer is no. Look I understand the you think it would be nice to have everyone's little secrets of where they trade and how they handle their internal finances, but the design of the market follows real world market practices. Yes some information available in game should not be available like who was the buyer, but seller should definitely be available. When you go to the store there are a lot of soft drinks in the soda isle, you buy Coke cause you like the taste and that fancy red label. Coke is sold in a ton of different stores, if you buy 3 Cokes from 2 different stores, your receipt reminds you a week later where you spent your RL money. (Not the best example, but trying to deliver the point of visibility of who you purchase from is available in RL scenarios.)



The FBI investigates this exact problem, it's called price fixing. Revealing the names of all sell and buy orders would just cause the exact same problem in game.

Here Matt Damon made a very boring film about Soda price fixing
http://uk.imdb.com/title/tt1130080/

You can already see the names of buy and sell orders if you trade 1 unit and then go to your transaction history, this is powerful enough. If you are desperate to find sell and buy orders sit out side trade hub and scan freighters and haulers for their cargo's.
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#10 - 2012-12-16 21:30:31 UTC
Because I would post my user name and password on the forums the moment my anonymity is challenged.

Is that reason enough?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#11 - 2012-12-16 22:24:03 UTC
Kara Books wrote:
Because I would post my user name and password on the forums the moment my anonymity is challenged.

Is that reason enough?


What??

You make no sense....
shar'ra matcevsovski
Doomheim
#12 - 2012-12-17 15:07:21 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Kara Books wrote:
Because I would post my user name and password on the forums the moment my anonymity is challenged.

Is that reason enough?


What??

You make no sense....


whenever brewlar says something ***** a wild kara books apears and tops him....nothing new

shar'ra phone home