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The voting reform discussion

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Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#501 - 2012-12-14 11:50:33 UTC
2000 posts as a baseline. You do realize that means of this current elected CSM, only Mittens and Seleene would have even been able to run, right? Even right now the only other one with over 2k posts is Hans, and that's just barely (2038). Even people as prolific as Alekseyev and Two Step are below that number, despite both having accounts for years.

It's almost as if you pulled numbers completely out of your ass without even taking a scant few seconds to think about what kind of post totals would represent any kind of average. I know, again, right?!

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#502 - 2012-12-14 12:24:49 UTC
'Must have made x posts to run' is a dumb requirement which will just lead to all potential candidates spewing random 'I like cheese' posts across the forums to hit the threshold. Eve-o has enough bad posting already without actively encouraging zero-content spam.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#503 - 2012-12-14 12:36:28 UTC
My mandate Cry

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Frying Doom
#504 - 2012-12-14 12:40:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Snow Axe wrote:
2000 posts as a baseline. You do realize that means of this current elected CSM, only Mittens and Seleene would have even been able to run, right? Even right now the only other one with over 2k posts is Hans, and that's just barely (2038). Even people as prolific as Alekseyev and Two Step are below that number, despite both having accounts for years.

It's almost as if you pulled numbers completely out of your ass without even taking a scant few seconds to think about what kind of post totals would represent any kind of average. I know, again, right?!

Or have you considered I might believe that the current and previous CSMs have not engaged the community as a whole properly.

And the current CSM believes that the EvE community should be checking a massive number of radio programs, blogs and articles to just see what they are saying.

Personally I feel a lot of the lack of voting by people is in relation to how little the CSM actually engages the community.

Yes advertising and education will help but the CSM actually engaging the community will help more.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#505 - 2012-12-14 13:05:31 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Or have you considered I might believe that the current and previous CSMs have not engaged the community as a whole properly.


I have, though under the umbrella of "I wonder what kind of dumb **** he's going to reply with".

You do realize there's more value to a CSM member than how often they post on a forum, right?

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Frying Doom
#506 - 2012-12-14 13:08:58 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Or have you considered I might believe that the current and previous CSMs have not engaged the community as a whole properly.


I have, though under the umbrella of "I wonder what kind of dumb **** he's going to reply with".

You do realize there's more value to a CSM member than how often they post on a forum, right?


Yeah they could be a US talk show host, it really does not add anything to the community as a whole does it.

But as usual the Alliance that normally has joke candidates in the election doesn't like something that would make it harder for them to suck the votes of the less informed.

How surprising.

No matter what this is actually a great idea, it is just a shame it came out after the summit started.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#507 - 2012-12-14 13:13:38 UTC
No, it's a universally terrible idea. You want to exclude truly valuable people because they don't meet some phantom post count that you made up, and your reasoning is that this CSM sucks at communicating with players therefore post counts should matter (nevermind that the CSM you have a problem with is chaired by the guy with far and away the most posts - and given his Eve-Search ranking of #58 overall, it's safe to say his post counts aren't exactly average).

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Frying Doom
#508 - 2012-12-14 13:29:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Snow Axe wrote:
No, it's a universally terrible idea. You want to exclude truly valuable people because they don't meet some phantom post count that you made up, and your reasoning is that this CSM sucks at communicating with players therefore post counts should matter (nevermind that the CSM you have a problem with is chaired by the guy with far and away the most posts - and given his Eve-Search ranking of #58 overall, it's safe to say his post counts aren't exactly average).

And yet that would be the CSM member with the ask me anything thread.

No it has not been frequently answered at times but it is still a lot better than most of the CSM members who do not meet that 2000 post count.

But at least without that you guys can keep spamming the candidate roles with joke characters, just like you oppose closing the loop hole in voting, allowing people to use a plex to get an extra vote.

But if you didn't I suppose it would not be The Null Sec Lobby, now would it.

Lets face it they are going to release the changes to the white paper in the minues and open them for community discussion.

All this will achieve is that if the system has been made harder for Null sec to game they will just spam the thread till it is all put back they way it was.

So the CSM can go on as a representative of the minority of EvE, while the majority wait for the new games to be released in the next couple of years, giving somewhere to go that isn't just bogged down in rubbish.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#509 - 2012-12-14 13:53:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Snow Axe
Time to post some fun numbers.

Seeing Seleene's 7k posts ranking him so highly made me wonder just how exclusive 2000 posts would be. I decided to go through every candidate that recieved even a single vote last election and see how many of them would have been eligible to run.

The good news? We would have had a top 7!

The bad news? There were literally only 7 candidates who met that criteria (out of 40 total eligible). I present to you, the "Joke Candidate Lobby Group", featuring a whopping 5 of the lowest 10 vote totals. That 5 of 10 also represents the only non-elected members.

The Mittani
Seleene
Vincent Athena
Skippermonkey
Xenuria
Lyris Nairn
Akirei Scytale

Actually, you know what? I take that back. There's no bad news.

edit: just gonna go ahead and add these quotes in light of this:

Frying Doom wrote:
But as usual the Alliance that normally has joke candidates in the election doesn't like something that would make it harder for them to suck the votes of the less informed.


Frying Doom wrote:
But at least without that you guys can keep spamming the candidate roles with joke characters.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Frying Doom
#510 - 2012-12-14 21:06:32 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Time to post some fun numbers.

Seeing Seleene's 7k posts ranking him so highly made me wonder just how exclusive 2000 posts would be. I decided to go through every candidate that recieved even a single vote last election and see how many of them would have been eligible to run.

The good news? We would have had a top 7!

The bad news? There were literally only 7 candidates who met that criteria (out of 40 total eligible). I present to you, the "Joke Candidate Lobby Group", featuring a whopping 5 of the lowest 10 vote totals. That 5 of 10 also represents the only non-elected members.

The Mittani
Seleene
Vincent Athena
Skippermonkey
Xenuria
Lyris Nairn
Akirei Scytale

Actually, you know what? I take that back. There's no bad news.

edit: just gonna go ahead and add these quotes in light of this:

Frying Doom wrote:
But as usual the Alliance that normally has joke candidates in the election doesn't like something that would make it harder for them to suck the votes of the less informed.


Frying Doom wrote:
But at least without that you guys can keep spamming the candidate roles with joke characters.

O the less drama queen way to look at it would be to say that thousands of characters would be eligible as candidates.

But as I said before, you and your associates will just spam the thread if they announce any changes to the voting system, that will make it harder for you to control. That is 100% guaranteed.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#511 - 2012-12-14 22:48:40 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
O the less drama queen way to look at it would be to say that thousands of characters would be eligible as candidates.

But as I said before, you and your associates will just spam the thread if they announce any changes to the voting system, that will make it harder for you to control. That is 100% guaranteed.


I think you mean ineligible, right? Those 40 candidates were the only ones last election who met the less-than-minimal criteria of "get 100 likes" and "send a passport scan to CCP to prove you're over 21 and can legally travel to Iceland". Every single one of 'em, and only 7 met your dumbass criteria. 5 of which were criminally unpopular, 2 of which were probably the most prominent joke candidates in the entire election save Darius III.

So to review, your idea, which is "actually a great idea", would exclude valuable non-forum-whoring CSM members (no Elise Randolph, Two Step, or Hans Jagerblitzen right off the top of my head), it actually in turn elevates the very joke candidates you are trying to eliminate. It's definitely a Frying Doom idea, if there ever was one.

Quick ignore all this and post a catch phrase about nullsec or welfare or goons or something! The nails in your coffin aren't driven in quite as deep or firm as they could be yet.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#512 - 2012-12-14 23:56:52 UTC
I can't believe we're even talking about a minimum number of posts. This is a terrible, terrible, terrible (not to mention completely arbitrary) criteria for electing candidates.

What happened to people using their ****ing brains and doing a bit of research into their candidates, gods forbid maybe even talking with them, looking places outside the EVE-O forums (which even some highly effective candidates seldom use), and using your best personal judgement?

If you set some ridiculous (and completely gameable) minimum standard of posts, all you'll do is give players less of a reason to get to know their candidates. I'll say it right now - if you think a number can tell you whether someone belongs on the council, you're so far off from understanding what the CSM is about, how we operate, and how to influence CCP - than you really shouldn't be voting in the first place.

Have we learned nothing from the "likes" primary system??

/emote facepalms of epic proportion

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#513 - 2012-12-15 00:05:57 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
you guys


This is the problem right here. You still buy into the disproven bullshit that the council is run by 0.0 special interests and that the currrent voting system somehow prevents minority sub-communities from obtaining representation at the highest level (including Iceland travel). Justify that meme first with some hard facts (one of which would have to be that I don't exist and that I'm not sitting here in Iceland having some brutally naked conversations with EVE's Executive Producer), and maybe more informed, intelligent voters will start taking the "you people" crap seriously. Roll

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Powers Sa
#514 - 2012-12-15 00:49:34 UTC
I wouldn't pay attention to Frying Doom, he's an outspoken irrelevant critic of the CSM.

Do you like winning t2 frigs and dictors for Dirt Cheap?https://eveninggames.net/register/ref/dQddmNgyLhFBqNJk

Remeber: Gambling addiction is no laughing matter unless you've lost a vast space fortune on the internet.
Frying Doom
#515 - 2012-12-15 02:11:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I can't believe we're even talking about a minimum number of posts. This is a terrible, terrible, terrible (not to mention completely arbitrary) criteria for electing candidates.

What happened to people using their ****ing brains and doing a bit of research into their candidates, gods forbid maybe even talking with them, looking places outside the EVE-O forums (which even some highly effective candidates seldom use), and using your best personal judgement?

If you set some ridiculous (and completely gameable) minimum standard of posts, all you'll do is give players less of a reason to get to know their candidates. I'll say it right now - if you think a number can tell you whether someone belongs on the council, you're so far off from understanding what the CSM is about, how we operate, and how to influence CCP - than you really shouldn't be voting in the first place.

Have we learned nothing from the "likes" primary system??

/emote facepalms of epic proportion

Yes and the communication the CSM has had over the years makes the majority of people feel it is just a Null sec lobby group, which is why I started using the term.

And frankly I am starting to feel that is right, so I will bow out of CSM discussions as apparently all is fine as is.

The only thing I would now like to see added is a disband the CSM button in the voting.

I would vote for that.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#516 - 2012-12-15 07:33:53 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
you guys


This is the problem right here. You still buy into the disproven bullshit that the council is run by 0.0 special interests and that the currrent voting system somehow prevents minority sub-communities from obtaining representation at the highest level (including Iceland travel). Justify that meme first with some hard facts (one of which would have to be that I don't exist and that I'm not sitting here in Iceland having some brutally naked conversations with EVE's Executive Producer), and maybe more informed, intelligent voters will start taking the "you people" crap seriously. Roll

Actually looking at it I would hardly call it di proven in any way, the current stsytem is too easily gamable and it will stay that way, as any changes that are attempted will be yelled down by the null sec crowd and subsequently removed.

Also I believe the informed, intelligent voters are actually the 80%+ who do not vote.

Why give legitimacy to the Null Sec Lobby Group.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Maelle LuzArdiden
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#517 - 2012-12-15 13:46:22 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I can't believe we're even talking about a minimum number of posts. This is a terrible, terrible, terrible (not to mention completely arbitrary) criteria for electing candidates.


I didn't suggest a minimum number of posts, just that the candidates should have a history of communication with the community they are to represent. Of course, this could be done via other media, eg. writing an EVE-related blog, column, a youtube channel or being active on some other EVE forum, but what would be a better channel to reach the wide audience than these official forums?

Also, I happened upon this: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/What_is_the_CSM#Candidate_Eligibility

Quote:
Candidates are expected to be active on the CSM forums and participate in the discussion of topics. They are also expected to adhere to the EULA/TOS and carry themselves in a manner that sets an example for other players to follow. In addition, they must be willing and able to travel to Iceland once during their term for a direct meeting with the CCP Council. Should a Representative be unable to attend this meeting, an Alternate will attend in his or her place. Transportation to and from Iceland, plus lodging, lunch, and dinner will be provided by CCP. Candidates are responsible for all other expenses incurred during the trip. Elected Representatives and Alternates are required to sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) before commencing their term.

If a candidate is unable to fulfill these requirements, the candidate with the next highest vote tally will be given their position. This process will continue until there are a total of nine Representatives and five Alternates.


So it actually already seems to be a prerequisite.

Quote:
What happened to people using their ****ing brains and doing a bit of research into their candidates, gods forbid maybe even talking with them, looking places outside the EVE-O forums (which even some highly effective candidates seldom use), and using your best personal judgement?


How do you do research into candidates who never communicate with anyone outside their alliance?

Hans, why do you bother to post here if you don't think it's important to communicate with the players?
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#518 - 2012-12-15 14:19:58 UTC
Maelle LuzArdiden wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I can't believe we're even talking about a minimum number of posts. This is a terrible, terrible, terrible (not to mention completely arbitrary) criteria for electing candidates.


I didn't suggest a minimum number of posts, just that the candidates should have a history of communication with the community they are to represent. Of course, this could be done via other media, eg. writing an EVE-related blog, column, a youtube channel or being active on some other EVE forum, but what would be a better channel to reach the wide audience than these official forums?

Who judges this, exactly? Do you really think its a good idea for CCP to go through the candidate list deciding whether somebody's posting history or blog site is active enough for them to be approved candidates?

The fact is that if some anonymous nobody without any ability or desire to communicate with his fellow players shows up as a CSM candidate, they're probably not going to get voted in anyway.

Quote:
Also, I happened upon this: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/What_is_the_CSM#Candidate_Eligibility

Quote:
Candidates are expected to be active on the CSM forums and participate in the discussion of topics. They are also expected to adhere to the EULA/TOS and carry themselves in a manner that sets an example for other players to follow. In addition, they must be willing and able to travel to Iceland once during their term for a direct meeting with the CCP Council. Should a Representative be unable to attend this meeting, an Alternate will attend in his or her place. Transportation to and from Iceland, plus lodging, lunch, and dinner will be provided by CCP. Candidates are responsible for all other expenses incurred during the trip. Elected Representatives and Alternates are required to sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) before commencing their term.

If a candidate is unable to fulfill these requirements, the candidate with the next highest vote tally will be given their position. This process will continue until there are a total of nine Representatives and five Alternates.


So it actually already seems to be a prerequisite.

It specifically says the CSM forums, not eve-o in general. How can it be a pre-requisite of CSM eligibility to post on the hidden NDA'd forums that only CSMs have access to?

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#519 - 2012-12-15 14:48:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Snow Axe
Maelle LuzArdiden wrote:
Hans, why do you bother to post here if you don't think it's important to communicate with the players?


There's a world of difference between communication existing and trying to measure and quantify amounts and quality of communication, especially via something as ridiculous as post counts.

Honestly I'm opposed to the idea that every single CSM member needs to be active on the official forums as it is - I think you could easily get away with one or two representatives speaking for the CSM. There's people who gravitate more towards that anyway. Of course, that'd involve things like "unified messages" and "communication strategies", two things this current CSM seems to have none of, so vOv.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Maelle LuzArdiden
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#520 - 2012-12-15 15:11:03 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:

Who judges this, exactly? Do you really think its a good idea for CCP to go through the candidate list deciding whether somebody's posting history or blog site is active enough for them to be approved candidates?

The fact is that if some anonymous nobody without any ability or desire to communicate with his fellow players shows up as a CSM candidate, they're probably not going to get voted in anyway.


The CCP employees dealing with CSM would judge that. I don't really see it as an impossible task.

Really? It's happened before, since all it takes now is a big enough alliance backing their candidate.


Quote:

It specifically says the CSM forums, not eve-o in general. How can it be a pre-requisite of CSM eligibility to post on the hidden NDA'd forums that only CSMs have access to?


Ok, I misinterpreted that as these forums. Then my point stands, existing communication should be considered when selecting candidates.

Do you agree with the view that a CSM member should communicate with EVE players outside their corp/alliance?