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Suggestion, More BS T2s

Author
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#1 - 2012-12-13 02:50:46 UTC
Most T2 ships come in 2 variants each (Field and Fleet command ships, 2 kinds of Intercepter, etc.) There are a couple of exceptions: EAF, Interdictors, HICs, Black ops and Marauders. This means most types of ship are able to come in two flavors of weapon. Electronic warfare is the weapon type on EAFs and interdiction is the weapon of interdictors and HICs, but the Battleship sized T2s suffer from a lack of variety.

With that in mind, they should double the number of BS T2s to encompass the other weapon type of each race. The new marauders should be T2 versions of the current tier 3 battleships, and, being weak in hitpoints but still using large weapons, it might be interesting to make the tier 3 battle-cruisers into alternate black ops. This will likely affect Caldari and gallente more, giving caldari T2 rail ships of battleship size while the gallente get a T2 battleship mission boat with drones and a blaster based black ops. That's not to say Minmatar and Amarr will be left out, they will get some missile ships to run with (though maybe Amarr will get drone boats with how the recent rebalances are going, making drones the defacto secondary weapon system for them)
Mal journ
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-12-13 08:01:27 UTC
t2 abaddon .... tempting
GizzyBoy
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#3 - 2012-12-13 13:22:58 UTC
coming soon in round 2/3 of tieracide?

not sure how a bs sized logi is going to work out, who would ever need a carrier anymore?
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#4 - 2012-12-13 13:26:40 UTC
i think they should carry through the with AF/hac path.
take amarr:

retribution/vengy
zealot/sac
paladin/(new torp boat)

the marauder should be less of a solo pve ship and more of a bs style hac
or keep the marauder and make a battle assualt ship. it would be a t2 geddon and abaddon.
geddon for pulse bonuses and the t2 abaddon would be changed to a torp boat to follow through with the vengeance/sac thing.


ive posted about t2 bs many times.
like a t2 hic version for bubbling large gates. bs size/hp with hic resists and a bubble trainable up too t2 large mobile bubbles.
it would be slow and maybe immobile as a balancing effect. the dictor drops a bubble, the hic is a fast moving smaller bubble, the bac would be an immobile fleet stopper. give it a large sig radius and not be able to accept reps while bubbled up like a hic.

the BLOPS just needs tweaking

marauder could use some lovin

t2 ewar cloaky bs like a recon bs would be bad ass.
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
#5 - 2012-12-13 14:49:07 UTC
Mal journ wrote:
t2 abaddon .... tempting


Khanid Abaddon please.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-12-13 15:16:13 UTC  |  Edited by: De'Veldrin
Xindi Kraid wrote:
Most T2 ships come in 2 variants each (Field and Fleet command ships, 2 kinds of Intercepter, etc.)


And if you read the rebalance dev blog on the command ships you would know that CCP is moving away from that model. So why would they move away from it on one hand and towards it on another?

Why don't we let them finish the tieracide and then start talking about new classes of ships?

DJ P0N-3 wrote:
Mal journ wrote:
t2 abaddon .... tempting


Khanid Abaddon please.


On the other hand, the idea of a torpedo Abaddon has rendered me currently unable to continue wearing pants.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.

Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#7 - 2012-12-13 20:11:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Xindi Kraid
Mole Guy wrote:
i think they should carry through the with AF/hac path.
take amarr:

retribution/vengy
zealot/sac
paladin/(new torp boat)

the marauder should be less of a solo pve ship and more of a bs style hac
or keep the marauder and make a battle assualt ship. it would be a t2 geddon and abaddon.
geddon for pulse bonuses and the t2 abaddon would be changed to a torp boat to follow through with the vengeance/sac thing.


ive posted about t2 bs many times.
like a t2 hic version for bubbling large gates. bs size/hp with hic resists and a bubble trainable up too t2 large mobile bubbles.
it would be slow and maybe immobile as a balancing effect. the dictor drops a bubble, the hic is a fast moving smaller bubble, the bac would be an immobile fleet stopper. give it a large sig radius and not be able to accept reps while bubbled up like a hic.

the BLOPS just needs tweaking

marauder could use some lovin

t2 ewar cloaky bs like a recon bs would be bad ass.


Marauders could use a bit of a buff to make them more than just mission boats. Right now the main problem seems to be sensor strenghth.

Now sure why we would need a bigger interdictor. Frankly it seems extremely bad policy if one ship can lock down a whole gate.

GizzyBoy wrote:
coming soon in round 2/3 of tieracide?

not sure how a bs sized logi is going to work out, who would ever need a carrier anymore?

I don't think we need BS sized logi for the reason stated. I was just talking new Marauders and Black ops in each race's alternate T2 weapon system.

I do realize that might possibly add too many torp boats, though.
De'Veldrin wrote:

And if you read the rebalance dev blog on the command ships you would know that CCP is moving away from that model. So why would they move away from it on one hand and towards it on another?

Why don't we let them finish the tieracide and then start talking about new classes of ships?


They are getting away from one being more powerful than the other, but I was talking more about weapons. One Caldari Command ship uses missiles, the other uses hybrids. Same With gallente, one uses drones, the other hybrids. The only exception to that is Minmatar Command ships, which are both bonused for projectiles but that seems to be changing

Quote:
On the other hand, the idea of a torpedo Abaddon has rendered me currently unable to continue wearing pants.

Indeed, that's the idea (though for me I was more thinking a T2 Rokh, and a Droneboat Marauder)
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#8 - 2012-12-13 20:35:30 UTC
bad policy to lock down a whole gate? a hic can lock down small gates now, where as i can drop 2 t2 large bubbles and lock a gate for 40km. you wont escape my bubble except with a cloaky thing.

if i can do that now with 2 small gadgets, why not extending it to a bs sized ship that can generate the power to make a bubble that size and with training, could eventually reach up too 40km. ok, we couldnt lock a WHOLE regional gate, but the size of a t2 large would be good.



its not mobile, but it doesnt need anchoring. its immobile once bubbled and could have a cycle timer of 1 minute or so.

lots of down sides could be implemented. but it would be kewl. alot can happen in 1 minute especially in null sec where u could use these.

Griffin Omanid
Knights of the Zodiac
#9 - 2012-12-13 23:39:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Griffin Omanid
I also thought allot about tech 2 version of the tier 3 BS. Mainly because there are also 4 developers who don´t got any BS.

Also wanted to edit a new post with my ideas, but now I think I just add it here:

Edit: I created my own topic so i won´t take this over.T2 BS Class Juggernaut
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-12-14 05:32:12 UTC
I still want to see blackops turned into BS sized stealth bombers Big smile
I've always wanted to see a T2 BS that uses fighters as its main weapons, sort of a pocket carrier. Only 5 at once of course, but it could be fun Cool

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#11 - 2012-12-14 06:20:53 UTC
OK guys.. stand back.. i got this..


i present to you.... Tech 2 ROKH!!!! in the same paintjob at the widdow (Kaalakiota)
with only 6 guns/launcher hardpoints but % bonus to bring it back up to an effective of 8. or 5 guns/launchers with 100% boost to damage so an effective of 10.. so it could be the attack varient of a maurauder, as i see maurauders more as combat ships then attack ships.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]

Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#12 - 2012-12-14 17:19:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakan MacTrew
If a T2 'Attack' BS were on the cards, then they should be agile and nimble.

Give them the same 4 turrets/launchers as Marauders, but I would suggest something like a 75% bonus to them, they shouldn'y put out the same damage as a ship designed to wade through its enemies ships. Allow them a range bonus tofalloff/missile velocity and a bonus to tracking/explosion velocity.

I would also suggest a MWD bonus, similar to the old Thorax and maybe a signature reduction like Assault Frigates.

Not too much tank either, probably as much buffer as the T1 'Attack' BS's with racial resists like the Marauders.

As for weapons and hulls:

Amarr - Abaddon - Torps
Caldari - Rokh - Hybrids
Gallente - Hyperion - Hybrids
Minmatar - Maelstrom - Projectiles/Launchers (If CCP are still into dual weapon bonuses, otherwise give one or the other.)

So, they are designed to get in, deal their damage and GTFO. Hit and Run BS's.

That's my take on it anyway.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#13 - 2012-12-14 18:33:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Mole Guy
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
If a T2 'Attack' BS were on the cards, then they should be agile and nimble.

Give them the same 4 turrets/launchers as Marauders, but I would suggest something like a 75% bonus to them, they shouldn'y put out the same damage as a ship designed to wade through its enemies ships. Allow them a range bonus tofalloff/missile velocity and a bonus to tracking/explosion velocity.

I would also suggest a MWD bonus, similar to the old Thorax and maybe a signature reduction like Assault Frigates.

Not too much tank either, probably as much buffer as the T1 'Attack' BS's with racial resists like the Marauders.

As for weapons and hulls:

Amarr - Abaddon - Torps
Caldari - Rokh - Hybrids
Gallente - Hyperion - Hybrids
Minmatar - Maelstrom - Projectiles/Launchers (If CCP are still into dual weapon bonuses, otherwise give one or the other.)

So, they are designed to get in, deal their damage and GTFO. Hit and Run BS's.

That's my take on it anyway.



so basically larger tier 3 cruisers with less power than a tier 3 cruiser?

i dont think thats good. the marauder should be this guys baby brother. all there people talking about over power this and that, but compaired to what we have now, it doesnt hold water. now, we have titans with 8 cap weapons and a gazillion hp. we have tier 3 bc with 8 large weapons and speed out the butt. we have hacs and hics that can reach nasty hp and damage for a cruiser. we have all these ships that can really dish it out and take it, but there is a huge gap when it comes to bs's.

the oracle can hit as hard as an abaddon, nightmare and a paladin but with 1/2 or less the training time. it has a speed tank, nice tracking bonuses and relatively cheep. we have 12 t1 bc's and 8 t2 bc's. then we have bs's and only 8 t2's. 4 are weak with the hp of a bc and 4 are tanky with shytty sensors. then u have dreads and carriers and on to super carriers and titans.

we have an 1100 dps absolution. what kinds crap is that? massive tank, great fire power (limited range), but its a battle cruiser.
you cant tell me that a hac style t2 bs isnt due when we have t1 tier 3 bc that do the same damage as as t1 and t2 plus faction ships (nightmare).

we need to fill the gap. natural progression. t1 frig-t2 frig (AF), (need t2 dessy assault style)t1 cruiser- t2 cruiser (hac), t1 bc-t2 bc (command ships), t1 bs-t2 ( juggernaught perhaps)
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#14 - 2012-12-14 18:39:00 UTC
make em expensive, make em have alot of training to even get into.
make em follow the path of each races hacs.

Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#15 - 2012-12-14 19:41:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Xindi Kraid
Mole Guy wrote:
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
If a T2 'Attack' BS were on the cards, then they should be agile and nimble.

Give them the same 4 turrets/launchers as Marauders, but I would suggest something like a 75% bonus to them, they shouldn'y put out the same damage as a ship designed to wade through its enemies ships. Allow them a range bonus tofalloff/missile velocity and a bonus to tracking/explosion velocity.

I would also suggest a MWD bonus, similar to the old Thorax and maybe a signature reduction like Assault Frigates.

Not too much tank either, probably as much buffer as the T1 'Attack' BS's with racial resists like the Marauders.

As for weapons and hulls:

Amarr - Abaddon - Torps
Caldari - Rokh - Hybrids
Gallente - Hyperion - Hybrids
Minmatar - Maelstrom - Projectiles/Launchers (If CCP are still into dual weapon bonuses, otherwise give one or the other.)

So, they are designed to get in, deal their damage and GTFO. Hit and Run BS's.

That's my take on it anyway.



so basically larger tier 3 cruisers with less power than a tier 3 cruiser?

i dont think thats good. the marauder should be this guys baby brother. all there people talking about over power this and that, but compaired to what we have now, it doesnt hold water. now, we have titans with 8 cap weapons and a gazillion hp. we have tier 3 bc with 8 large weapons and speed out the butt. we have hacs and hics that can reach nasty hp and damage for a cruiser. we have all these ships that can really dish it out and take it, but there is a huge gap when it comes to bs's.

the oracle can hit as hard as an abaddon, nightmare and a paladin but with 1/2 or less the training time. it has a speed tank, nice tracking bonuses and relatively cheep. we have 12 t1 bc's and 8 t2 bc's. then we have bs's and only 8 t2's. 4 are weak with the hp of a bc and 4 are tanky with shytty sensors. then u have dreads and carriers and on to super carriers and titans.

we have an 1100 dps absolution. what kinds crap is that? massive tank, great fire power (limited range), but its a battle cruiser.
you cant tell me that a hac style t2 bs isnt due when we have t1 tier 3 bc that do the same damage as as t1 and t2 plus faction ships (nightmare).

we need to fill the gap. natural progression. t1 frig-t2 frig (AF), (need t2 dessy assault style)t1 cruiser- t2 cruiser (hac), t1 bc-t2 bc (command ships), t1 bs-t2 ( juggernaught perhaps)

That's a sentiment I agree with, but I don't like the idea of Marauders being the baby brother to some new T2.

First of all, Marauders could use a bit pf a PvP buff (Black Ops too, but I think they might be lacking more because their role is lacking). After that, what I am looking for is doubling the set of Marauders. I want new T2 Battleships, but the old ones should be put on even footing; that way BS players actually have a choice of weapons. besides the fact the current T2 BS aren't very good, you are also locked into a weapon system; I am a Caldari player who originally trained up gunnery skills, while my missile skills are catching up, a year ago there was no reason at all for me to train Caldari BS V for the T2s simply because both were missile boats. It's the same with the other races, there's no Khanid BS, nor are there T2 missile ships for Minmatar, and the T2 droneboat of the Gallente has no tank.

Note this means a T2 Hyperion would end up being a droneboat (though maybe still be able to fit a decent rack of blasters)


Also, I am not a BS captain myself, preferring small ships, so that comment about T2 destroyers is also a nice one.
Right now Destroyers are in the attack role, so a T2 combat destroyer (able to punch up in weight) is just what the doctor ordered.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#16 - 2012-12-14 20:13:30 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
so basically larger tier 3 cruisers with less power than a tier 3 cruiser?

i dont think thats good. the marauder should be this guys baby brother. all there people talking about over power this and that, but compaired to what we have now, it doesnt hold water. now, we have titans with 8 cap weapons and a gazillion hp. we have tier 3 bc with 8 large weapons and speed out the butt. we have hacs and hics that can reach nasty hp and damage for a cruiser. we have all these ships that can really dish it out and take it, but there is a huge gap when it comes to bs's.

the oracle can hit as hard as an abaddon, nightmare and a paladin but with 1/2 or less the training time. it has a speed tank, nice tracking bonuses and relatively cheep. we have 12 t1 bc's and 8 t2 bc's. then we have bs's and only 8 t2's. 4 are weak with the hp of a bc and 4 are tanky with shytty sensors. then u have dreads and carriers and on to super carriers and titans.

we have an 1100 dps absolution. what kinds crap is that? massive tank, great fire power (limited range), but its a battle cruiser.
you cant tell me that a hac style t2 bs isnt due when we have t1 tier 3 bc that do the same damage as as t1 and t2 plus faction ships (nightmare).

we need to fill the gap. natural progression. t1 frig-t2 frig (AF), (need t2 dessy assault style)t1 cruiser- t2 cruiser (hac), t1 bc-t2 bc (command ships), t1 bs-t2 ( juggernaught perhaps)

Two words:

Power Creep

Yes, Titans put out stupid amounts of Damage and have insane tanks, but they also cost massive amounts and skilling for them is a *****. Not to mention they can't dock up, use gates or enter any where but null.

Yes, Oracle's can hit like an Abaddon, but if you look at them funny they spontaniously combust and the speed of all tier 3 BC's is getting addressed in the next rebalance wave, as is their sig radius. Did I mention their paper tank?

That 1100 DPS Absolution has very little in the way of tank compared to many other BC's and has very little cap.

The Marauder IS a T2 HAC style BS, they just have active bonuses rather than passive bonuses as they are designed for PvE not PvP. So the real issue with them is the difference between PvP and PvE. Either way, they do a sh!t ton of DPS.

What gap needs filling? Why do we need an assault version of a Destroyer or a Battlecruiser? By all means put in a Destroyer scale command ship for small frigate gangs, we already agreed on that. But an AF can kill a cruiser, I don't see a gap. I don't understand why we 'need' just because there is a ship class that doesn't have one.
Do we need recon Destroyers and Battlecruisers? No.
Do we need exploration Battleships? No.
Do we need weapons with a middle range that do middleground damage? No.
Do we need T2 capitals? Hell no!

As for my take on a potential T2 Attack BS having less power than T3's, how do you work that out? My suggestion would mean they would have only 12.5% less DPS than a Marauder with much better agility and speed. They also would cause you to lose up to 4 days worth of skill points when they blow up and would project their damage over a greater range than T3's with comparable DPS.

Make a BS that has more DPS and more tank than anything else that can enter high sec and your just making a new "I WIN" button for whoever can throw enough money at them. How exactly is that fair or balanced?
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#17 - 2012-12-14 21:52:35 UTC
Make a BS that has more DPS and more tank than anything else that can enter high sec and your just making a new "I WIN" button for whoever can throw enough money at them. How exactly is that fair or balanced?
who cares about entering high sec. these ships would cost so much, they wouldnt be used for anything but pvp or pve. they cost WAY too much for high sec ganking or stupidness. only the serious would buy them. would be good for worm holes, incursions, lev 4's or whatever folks want to run.

the marauder isnt by ANY MEANS a t2 hac bs. it has a VERY SMALL bonus to resistance. it can dish out some, but its not a pvp ship. hell, i would rather have the low slot they take for the resistance bonus so i can build my own tank...to me, its just an expensive bs. i dont see much other purpose for it.


fair isnt the point here, balance is. it isnt fair that i cant fly a titan on my first day, i pay as much as the next guy. balance is that in order to fly that titan, i need gobs of money, training and i am a slave to it.

a hac style bs would be expensive as hell (balance), take tons of training (balance), and be on everyones hit list. im not asking for more dps than a marauder, just a better tank and sensor cluster. i wanna use it for pve as well. i just think that there is a hole. we have bad ass ships from frigs up to command ships and then we are left with t1 bs or severly gimped t2 bs.

gimped by either crappy hp (which a blops has a reason for) or a marauder has very small resist bonus, SHYTTY sensors and an active tank bonus.
both of these are specialty ships. one is pve only, one is a transport ship for covert craft. there are no battle buggies....neither of these are tough, large sized ships for pvp/sustained combat. im not looking for craziness, just make it the same as the t2 hacs.
take the geddon hull and make a pulse boat and the abaddon for a torp boat.

also, take the recon and make a t2 bs simular to it. the amarr t2 bs would be a drone boat with neut capabilities (or same hac bonus for other races). one can cloak and one cannot. just like the recon.

personally, i think a bs style hic would be kewl. it would be immobile when bubbled up and couldnt receive assistance, the bubble might last 1-2 minutes so once popped, it better sustain itself for a while. the dictor drops a bubble, the hic is a mobile small bubble, the battle interdictor would be semi mobile until bubbled, but there would be no anchor time like a normal bubble and once bubbled up, its sig radius would be huge). or something to balance it.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#18 - 2012-12-15 01:22:49 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
fair isnt the point here, balance is. it isnt fair that i cant fly a titan on my first day, i pay as much as the next guy. balance is that in order to fly that titan, i need gobs of money, training and i am a slave to it.

Your ignorance astounds me. I can't believe you have actually tried to draw a line between what is fair and what is balanced. It is totally fair that no one can fly a titan on day one, because its not earned earned. Isk, training and building up the contacts to get one are part of earning it. That is also where balance comes in, because if every one day old character could fly a titan, EvE would be really boring because there would be nothing to work towards.

So, Fair and Balanced... You want a T2 combat BS that does the same DPS as a marauder (highest DPS of any sub cap ship if I'm not mistaken,) but with a better tank and sensor strength. So you'll take away the downsides and replace them with added cost...
So anyone with a wad burning a hole in their pocket can fly them but no one else... Thus keeping power firmly in the hands of those who already have it. You propse a ship that out strips every other sub cap that currently exists and you say its balanced because its expensive? An expensive ship that out performs all others is still just "Pay to Win". Isk is not a statistic or attribute How much does a HAC cost compared to the other T2 cruisers? Last I checked they had a similar price. Funny that. Must be because they are balanced. How exactly do you justify this uber HAC of yours given its imbalance against the other T2 BS's? They are the bench mark after all.
If this uber HAC would be so great for PvP, why would anyway fly anything else unless they couldn't afford it?

Has it never occured to you that you would be far better off asking for a resistance bonus instead of an active rep bonus on the Marauder? Given that I stated that the main issue is the diffrence between PvE and PvP needs, which you basically agreed with, I would have expected you to have considered that.

As for bubbling BS's, a HIC has a unique ability among ships. That ability is tremendous. By giving that ability to a ship with a much better tank you drasticly increase the potency of that ability. Again, this would throw the whole mechanic out of balance.

And before I forget...
Mole Guy wrote:
these ships would cost so much, they wouldnt be used for anything but pvp or pve.

Please enlighten me as to what else you do in a combat ship. Do you mine in yours? Haul perhaps?
Romvex
TURN LEFT
#19 - 2012-12-15 11:37:03 UTC
Khanid Torp-baddon? YES
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#20 - 2012-12-16 05:50:43 UTC
I find it interesting the thing everyone seems to be latching on to is a Khanid ship. No love for a T2 maelstrom or Hyperion, Rokh

Whatever, these ships need to be made.
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