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Countering Titan Bridges - EVESP

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Ev4
NysCorp
Ivy League Alt Alliance
#61 - 2012-12-14 19:38:30 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7AOyDFzzng

Probably one of the best fights ive been in was facilitated by titan bridges.

All parties will have had eyes on each others titans and they were simply used to get the fight started and keep it going.

If you keep falling for cyno bait, consider that a lesson in situational awareness. I know a guy who lost 6bn isk to a cov ops cyno the yesterday. Black Ops can bridge out of high sec, should they be nerfed too?

All this talk of nerfing bridges is highly partisan. Namely, the parties without them want them nerfed lol.

Where is this epic fighting going on? I'm interested.
Dibblerette
Solitude-Industries
#62 - 2012-12-14 19:40:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Dibblerette
Tekitha wrote:
Dibblerette wrote:


On a side note, one fun idea I heard was that a titan bridge should turn the target cyno into a sort of wormhole. This would force the bridged force to defend until the cyno spooled down (generally what they already do, but only really afraid of enemy capitals/BS), in case some plucky ceptor pilot charges back through the hole and pops another cyno on the titan. Maybe this only works this way in lowsec, and 0.0 remains the same.


Are you suggesting the wormhole puts ships back into the pos (whereby hostile ships will be ejected immediately) or outside the pos (whereby they will be ripped apart by pos defenses), either way, thanks for the free extraction .. +1 for this idea.


I didn't suggest this, and unfortunately I can't remember who did. The idea is it would polarize the ships coming through, much like normal wormholes. This would stop the bridging force from hopping back and forth at whim. Of course you wouldn't want to recklessly jump through onto POS guns, but form what I've seen, most Titan POSs are just the bubble. At the very least it provides a nice little "up yours" by bringing a potential titan killing fleet to the titan at the titan's cost.

Of course you could just carry only enough fuel for one way, or just make it a fixed, high cost to bridge in the first place. Like I said, I'm no expert. I think it's a valid point that a character who has dedicated months of training only to be locked in their ship should have some advantages, but not at the cost of his or her mere presence shitting on an entire region with the only direct counter being some other pilot and alliance making the same sacrifice in time and ISK.

Here's to the rebalancing initiative hitting the capital meta in the groin. Viva la Winter 2013!
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#63 - 2012-12-14 20:21:03 UTC
islador wrote:
That ultimately means that no matter how aggressive or foolhardy a titan bridging force may be, they always engage on their own terms.

Exactly. This is an instanced PvP and is no different to instanced PvE some other games have. The funny thing is how the same folks currently abusing one-way game mechanics PvP-wise moan about those wanting to run their lucrative hi-sec PvE activities in the same safety.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#64 - 2012-12-14 22:08:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Fon Revedhort wrote:
islador wrote:
That ultimately means that no matter how aggressive or foolhardy a titan bridging force may be, they always engage on their own terms.

Exactly. This is an instanced PvP and is no different to instanced PvE some other games have. The funny thing is how the same folks currently abusing one-way game mechanics PvP-wise moan about those wanting to run their lucrative hi-sec PvE activities in the same safety.


I ALWAYS engage on my own terms. Unless you consider insta locking/insta warping gatecamps to be the pinnacle of eve pvp?

Another use for titan bridges you reminded me of;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtPROl9YIuc

Otherwise THOSE guys would be pretty much invulnerable. We were still sat there for 10 minutes next door to their homesystem relying on gates to get back. They couldve shipped up to anything. No bridge, no action would have happened at all in this case.

As for high sec PvE, i personally have no clue what you are talking about. But an extension of your logic would be to make black ops only be able to bridge from low sec safe spots. While were talking about one unnecessary change to fix something that isnt broken, why not lets talk about more right?

Ive been on the receiving end of counter bridges, bridges where cynoes died and ended up at sun trying to light cynos with no LO, lighting cynos for a titan with no stront as well as killing cynos before enemy fleets arrive on grid, spotting cyno characters and working around them etc. I believe you guys that have only been at the receiving end of a whipping have a very narrow view of bridging.
GenesisMike
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2012-12-14 23:23:09 UTC
islador wrote:
OP here, this thread was the result of research into countering titan bridges.

When DnD moved into Aridia they seemed like a great bunch to fight, but they relied heavily on titan bridges. Titan bridging gives the bridgers the initiative in a fight compared to non-bridgers. That ultimately means that no matter how aggressive or foolhardy a titan bridging force may be, they always engage on their own terms.

Fighting on your opponent's terms is the best way to welp a fleet, so I went looking for ways to counter DnD's bridges. If I could fight on my terms rather then on theirs I might be able to leverage faster ships and superior numbers to have a chance against their heavy-buffer triage doctrine. I was surprised to find that no such counters existed in lowsec. So I wrote up my findings and posted them for all to see.

I never intended to propose a change or fix, or even argue that bridges are broken or bad for the game. I even went so far as to say that I respect DnD for their tactics, and I do. All I wanted was to raise awareness, so thank you, especially to the trolls, you guys bring comedy to an otherwise bland thread.



It's a competitive game, so get competitive and try and ambush the bridging fleet. Get eyes on their titan and see what they are bringing to the field and bait them then hit them with a counter.

The reason you are not seeing someone post a counter to being bridged on is because there isn't one. Eve is a chess game, learn to make the correct move against the correct pieces.... or just die over and over again.
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#66 - 2012-12-15 02:51:27 UTC
Make ship cynos have a short range, so that now you have to work both jumpers and cyno range.
This way instead of being a strategic redeployment they act more as a short range helicopter insertion.
Meanwhile POS bridges and cynos have their current ranges (maybe buffed, but be made high level sov structures)
Ways to effect the titan brige is make it 2 way now dropping you becomes a back door into their operations area
Other option is to require that the bridge adhere to the same rules as the pos mod-50 km from sheild thus the titan is at risk along with the fleet.
Combining these 2 make the battles more interesting as safety is removed thus placing the risk factor closer to reward while still allowing use of the titan.


Also why was the titans ability to doomsday subcaps removed?
Miss Convenient
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#67 - 2012-12-15 05:09:50 UTC
Tekitha wrote:
Torijace wrote:
. Also why do titans need to bridge inside pos shields? seems like a strange mod to be allowed to activate in complete safety


Because the alternative is losing a 120billion isk ship everytime you try and use it. Every single lowsec bridging Titan is watchlisted by 100s of pilots, even moving one (whereby it's vulnerable for ~1 minute) is pretty risky business.



Oh, the tears. Think of the tears!

Seriously. Titan-bridges are completely ******** in any space and has forced people into boring doctrines and risk aversion.

Cost is not a balancing argument.

Føkk off.
Abyssum Invocat
Yet Another Tax Haven
#68 - 2012-12-15 07:09:39 UTC
NEONOVUS wrote:
Make ship cynos have a short range, so that now you have to work both jumpers and cyno range.
This way instead of being a strategic redeployment they act more as a short range helicopter insertion.
Meanwhile POS bridges and cynos have their current ranges (maybe buffed, but be made high level sov structures)
Ways to effect the titan brige is make it 2 way now dropping you becomes a back door into their operations area
Other option is to require that the bridge adhere to the same rules as the pos mod-50 km from sheild thus the titan is at risk along with the fleet.
Combining these 2 make the battles more interesting as safety is removed thus placing the risk factor closer to reward while still allowing use of the titan.


Also why was the titans ability to doomsday subcaps removed?

Because groups like PL would just doomsday down the chain of command and welp entire fleets so long as they had as many titans on the field as the enemy had primary, secondary, and tertiary FCs.
Dread Operative
Main Corporation
Prisoners With Jobs
#69 - 2012-12-15 08:02:10 UTC
Titans are a rarity these days anyhow, why would we nerf them to the point of uselessness? Any nerf to "balance" low sec would destroy titan use in null sec, effectively killing the ship class. Why is it fair that the people that put in the time and effort be punched because other players didn't want to?
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#70 - 2012-12-15 09:24:12 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
islador wrote:
That ultimately means that no matter how aggressive or foolhardy a titan bridging force may be, they always engage on their own terms.

Exactly. This is an instanced PvP and is no different to instanced PvE some other games have. The funny thing is how the same folks currently abusing one-way game mechanics PvP-wise moan about those wanting to run their lucrative hi-sec PvE activities in the same safety.


I ALWAYS engage on my own terms.

That's what most advanced PvPers can safely state, they surely don't rush into fights blindly. But the point is, in conventional PvP both parties can 'negotiate' at equal terms and easily avoid engagement if 'negotiations' fail. That's impossible for hot-dropping.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#71 - 2012-12-15 10:18:16 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
islador wrote:
That ultimately means that no matter how aggressive or foolhardy a titan bridging force may be, they always engage on their own terms.

Exactly. This is an instanced PvP and is no different to instanced PvE some other games have. The funny thing is how the same folks currently abusing one-way game mechanics PvP-wise moan about those wanting to run their lucrative hi-sec PvE activities in the same safety.


I ALWAYS engage on my own terms.

That's what most advanced PvPers can safely state, they surely don't rush into fights blindly. But the point is, in conventional PvP both parties can 'negotiate' at equal terms and easily avoid engagement if 'negotiations' fail. That's impossible for hot-dropping.


Incorrect. I think you are arguing against your impression of bridging rather than the reality. Fact is that in low sec, unless the party you are bridging WANTS to engage you are only ever going to tackle a few people by virtue of the 10 seconds it takes to light the cyno, the bridge to go up and then all the fleet to load the new grid. During which time, the enemy fleet has bailed apart from whatever the in-cyno had tackle on.

Unless of course, they wanted a fight and/or they had eyes on your titain and had an escallation waiting for you.

This is the reality of low-sec titan bridging. The power of titan bridging in dullsec relates closely with bubbles i would guess, but who cares about dullsec anyway?
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#72 - 2012-12-15 10:53:56 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:

Incorrect. I think you are arguing against your impression of bridging rather than the reality. Fact is that in low sec, unless the party you are bridging WANTS to engage you are only ever going to tackle a few people by virtue of the 10 seconds it takes to light the cyno, the bridge to go up and then all the fleet to load the new grid. During which time, the enemy fleet has bailed apart from whatever the in-cyno had tackle on.

Unless of course, they wanted a fight and/or they had eyes on your titain and had an escallation waiting for you.

This is the reality of low-sec titan bridging. The power of titan bridging in dullsec relates closely with bubbles i would guess, but who cares about dullsec anyway?
Because no-one is gonna suicide-bridge his own fleet, so when you see a cyno, it's almost always a good thing to bail, and that's one of the reasons why titan-bridging are killing all the ~gudfites~.

You seem mad that, giving the fact that you have complete intel on the target, the time to gather a good comp against it (and more pilots/enough remote to tank them all), you won't risk any ambush during the "travel", you will take them by surprise, etc, but you will only get 3 kills (arazu with 3 points) and they won't even shoot back ? My my my.

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#73 - 2012-12-15 11:34:03 UTC
Tekitha wrote:
Torijace wrote:
. Also why do titans need to bridge inside pos shields? seems like a strange mod to be allowed to activate in complete safety


Because the alternative is losing a 120billion isk ship everytime you try and use it. Every single lowsec bridging Titan is watchlisted by 100s of pilots, even moving one (whereby it's vulnerable for ~1 minute) is pretty risky business.

There are just too many clueless people posting in this thread for it to be constructive. I will say this tho, pretty much all the people posting about nerfing bridging in here are the kind of playrs that prefer small ships and small gangs, well guess what? ... Titans barely affect your playstyle, so why even bother worrying about it. I could even turn this around and say "it's too easy for BC and below to escape the field before the bridged ships can even load grid QQ. Triple align times and make grid loading faster please so I can bridge more destroyer gangs, kkthnx"



Are you kidding? I realize you likely don't solo much or even do small "roaming" gang PVP, but trust me there are people that will bait random small gangs for a titian bridge just for lols. Hell I've even been dropped on when I was solo in a Rupture.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#74 - 2012-12-15 11:55:27 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
islador wrote:
That ultimately means that no matter how aggressive or foolhardy a titan bridging force may be, they always engage on their own terms.

Exactly. This is an instanced PvP and is no different to instanced PvE some other games have. The funny thing is how the same folks currently abusing one-way game mechanics PvP-wise moan about those wanting to run their lucrative hi-sec PvE activities in the same safety.


I ALWAYS engage on my own terms.

That's what most advanced PvPers can safely state, they surely don't rush into fights blindly. But the point is, in conventional PvP both parties can 'negotiate' at equal terms and easily avoid engagement if 'negotiations' fail. That's impossible for hot-dropping.


Incorrect. I think you are arguing against your impression of bridging rather than the reality. Fact is that in low sec, unless the party you are bridging WANTS to engage you are only ever going to tackle a few people by virtue of the 10 seconds it takes to light the cyno, the bridge to go up and then all the fleet to load the new grid. During which time, the enemy fleet has bailed apart from whatever the in-cyno had tackle on.

Unless of course, they wanted a fight and/or they had eyes on your titain and had an escallation waiting for you.

This is the reality of low-sec titan bridging. The power of titan bridging in dullsec relates closely with bubbles i would guess, but who cares about dullsec anyway?

The reality is that those bridging in would otherwise fail to score even these few kills they score due to the portaling. Or would just suck and lose in a straight head-to-head combat.

Tackling even those 'few' people (and how much would you expect to tackle when dropping onto a soloer? Happens all the time) is a free gift under current mechanics. When all you do is farm hard to gain initial, non-losable advantage, then your actual combat achievements are next to zero.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#75 - 2012-12-15 12:33:38 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Unless of course, they wanted a fight and/or they had eyes on your titain and had an escallation waiting for you.
Breaking news : the counter to titan-bridging is another titan-bridging !

I must blue more people ! Lol

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
Hinsty David
Doomheim
#76 - 2012-12-15 15:25:53 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
Tekitha wrote:
Torijace wrote:
. Also why do titans need to bridge inside pos shields? seems like a strange mod to be allowed to activate in complete safety


Because the alternative is losing a 120billion isk ship everytime you try and use it. Every single lowsec bridging Titan is watchlisted by 100s of pilots, even moving one (whereby it's vulnerable for ~1 minute) is pretty risky business.

There are just too many clueless people posting in this thread for it to be constructive. I will say this tho, pretty much all the people posting about nerfing bridging in here are the kind of playrs that prefer small ships and small gangs, well guess what? ... Titans barely affect your playstyle, so why even bother worrying about it. I could even turn this around and say "it's too easy for BC and below to escape the field before the bridged ships can even load grid QQ. Triple align times and make grid loading faster please so I can bridge more destroyer gangs, kkthnx"



Are you kidding? I realize you likely don't solo much or even do small "roaming" gang PVP, but trust me there are people that will bait random small gangs for a titian bridge just for lols. Hell I've even been dropped on when I was solo in a Rupture.


I have indeed hotdropped 40 man fleets on frigates because it's funny.
Andres Talas
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#77 - 2012-12-16 12:15:14 UTC
NEONOVUS wrote:



Also why was the titans ability to doomsday subcaps removed?


Because once you had enough of them, it wasnt just subcaps they could doomsday.
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#78 - 2012-12-16 12:52:52 UTC
The titan really seems to be one of those it seemed a good idea at the time things.

Query
What is the purpose of a Titan?
How does it achieve that purpose?
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#79 - 2012-12-17 03:57:36 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
If you can't build it in low sec, then you shouldn't be able to field it in low sec.


I'd have no problem with this, but vast chunks of null would have to be filled in in order to actually move ships around. Especially in the north. More NPC Nullsec perhaps?
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#80 - 2012-12-17 05:12:41 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
If you can't build it in low sec, then you shouldn't be able to field it in low sec.


I'd have no problem with this, but vast chunks of null would have to be filled in in order to actually move ships around. Especially in the north. More NPC Nullsec perhaps?
Can you give an example or two?