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[Duality] NPC aggression against drones and Safety persistence changes

First post
Author
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2012-12-14 16:58:14 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Goliath
Hey everyone. Team Five-0 has been working hard since Retribution to get changes for these two issues ready to go.

The good news is that we've got some changes implemented and they just need some more testing before release. We're opening the Duality test server up with both of these changes live and ready to go so that you all can take a look over the weekend and let us know if anything breaks for you.

Information on how to set up Duality can be found at: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Duality

You can use this thread for feedback and I'll collect it and get it to the rest of the team.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Veinnail
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-12-14 17:06:13 UTC
looking forward to digging into this over the weekend.
MainDrain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-12-14 17:06:34 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Team Five-0 has been working hard since Retribution to get changes for these two issues ready to go.

The good news is that we've got some changes implemented and they just need some more testing before release. We're opening the Duality test server up with both of these changes live and ready to go so that you all can take a look over the weekend and let us know if anything breaks for you.

Information on how to set up Duality can be found at: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Duality

You can use this thread for feedback and I'll collect it and get it to the rest of the team.


Can you confirm the exact nature of the drone changes (the safety one is obvious) Im assuming you've worked so they no longer get hammered on launch, and the bug where if we dock them up, and launch them again they seem to get less aggression?
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#4 - 2012-12-14 17:13:28 UTC
MainDrain wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Team Five-0 has been working hard since Retribution to get changes for these two issues ready to go.

The good news is that we've got some changes implemented and they just need some more testing before release. We're opening the Duality test server up with both of these changes live and ready to go so that you all can take a look over the weekend and let us know if anything breaks for you.

Information on how to set up Duality can be found at: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Duality

You can use this thread for feedback and I'll collect it and get it to the rest of the team.


Can you confirm the exact nature of the drone changes (the safety one is obvious) Im assuming you've worked so they no longer get hammered on launch, and the bug where if we dock them up, and launch them again they seem to get less aggression?


Basically a new attribute has been added that scales NPC drone aggro in a more sensible way. There should be more reduction in aggro against small drones than against large ones in general. There's also a lot more room to tweak with this new attribute, as the old one often didn't work as expected.

The side effect where scooping and relaunching reduced aggro should be significantly less pronounced but may not be completely gone.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Siobhan MacLeary
Goosefleet
#5 - 2012-12-14 17:18:25 UTC
I assume the way Sleepers act against drones - preferring to hit player ships but going after drones too if there's o

Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.” - CCP Soundwave

Matthew97
#6 - 2012-12-14 17:28:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Matthew97
Siobhan MacLeary wrote:
I assume the way Sleepers act against drones - preferring to hit player ships but going after drones too if there's o



I'm assuming that this only effects the new Mission AI as the sleepers haven't been touched AI Wise in the new expansion.


CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Team Five-0 has been working hard since Retribution to get changes for these two issues ready to go.

The good news is that we've got some changes implemented and they just need some more testing before release. We're opening the Duality test server up with both of these changes live and ready to go so that you all can take a look over the weekend and let us know if anything breaks for you.

Information on how to set up Duality can be found at: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Duality

You can use this thread for feedback and I'll collect it and get it to the rest of the team.



Is this on there now or soon? Just that its still got the old bugs from way way in Retri testing (Green lights on Tengu / Pure white ships)
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#7 - 2012-12-14 18:04:28 UTC
Matthew97 wrote:
Siobhan MacLeary wrote:
I assume the way Sleepers act against drones - preferring to hit player ships but going after drones too if there's o



I'm assuming that this only effects the new Mission AI as the sleepers haven't been touched AI Wise in the new expansion.


CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Team Five-0 has been working hard since Retribution to get changes for these two issues ready to go.

The good news is that we've got some changes implemented and they just need some more testing before release. We're opening the Duality test server up with both of these changes live and ready to go so that you all can take a look over the weekend and let us know if anything breaks for you.

Information on how to set up Duality can be found at: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Duality

You can use this thread for feedback and I'll collect it and get it to the rest of the team.



Is this on there now or soon? Just that its still got the old bugs from way way in Retri testing (Green lights on Tengu / Pure white ships)


They should be on there now. Duality may have other bugs here and there, we asked for it to be opened up with somewhat late notice.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Aukido
Estes Inc.
#8 - 2012-12-14 18:30:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Aukido
Great!
Sarmatiko
#9 - 2012-12-14 19:09:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarmatiko
Diff with full list of affected NPC ships (and one poor Dual Giga Modal Laser): http://pastebin.com/hRzpMKWe

Attributes description:
AI_TankingModifierDrone - "Tanking modifier applied to drones. 1.0 is no modifier"
AI_IgnoreDronesBelowSignatureRadius - "NPC'S with this attribute wont shoot drones with signature radius less than this value"

So, if I understand new changes correctly, NPC frigates now will attack only small drones, [battle]cruisers only medium and small, battleships only heavies, sentries and fighters.
"Tank modifier" thing needs to be explained though. Drones will deal less damage NPC will tank better against damage incoming from drones?
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-12-14 19:42:07 UTC
Yep, would love to know what the "Tanking Modifier" is meant to be. If it mean drone damage is cut from the "wrong" drone size? That is, using a medium (but ignored) drone to (slower) take out the target that you should be using a heavy (attackable) drone to (faster) take out will result in medium drone suffering a DPS penalty because it's the "wrong tool for the job"? I hope not, because otherwise I want to see a similar modifier when using large missiles to hit small NPC ships.

Hope I'm wrong about this.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#11 - 2012-12-14 19:49:08 UTC
Here is a concept.

You had 30 some odd pages of people screaming this was a disaster weeks before you rolled it out.
I was one of them screaming the loudest and longest.

Weeks before Retribution went live You even warped into my of missions while I was on Duality.
You opened up a private convo with me and I gave you both barrels about this incredibly bad decision to implement this.

Yet, you chose to listen to all the people that said "oh, this new game mechanic is awesome, it is just bad players".
Those people have been proven to either be be very very wrong, or they were simply lying to you.

So who about this:

ROKLBACK THE CHANGES COMPLETELY, SPEND SEVERAL WEEKS HAVING MULTIPLE PEOPLE WITHIN CCP TEST THIS OVER MANY WEEKS, MANY MISSIONS, MANY PLEXES, AND IGNORE ANY COMMENTS FROM PLAYERS, AS MANY CANNOT BE TRUSTED.

Otherwise, we will repeat the same cycle repeat.
People who hate mission runners will simply post "I tested it, and the changes are awesome. Running drones is too easy now." without even having logged onto Duality, and you will blithely roll out these modifications, regardless of if they solve anything or not.

And as for the canard "CCP does not have the resources to run hundreds of missions and plexes", when you are implementing a mechanic that has such far reaching implications for the game, you damn well should find the resources.
You would NEVER roll something out that affected moon goo like ring mining with such a cavalier attitude, but it is OK to wipe out high sec mission runners.

But this suggestion will fall on deaf ears.
It is human nature to discount facts that run counter to one's belief system, while giving credence to propaganda that reinforces those beliefs. You just have to follow any political race to witness that.
Mund Richard
#12 - 2012-12-14 19:55:58 UTC
Sarmatiko wrote:
AI_IgnoreDronesBelowSignatureRadius - "NPC'S with this attribute wont shoot drones with signature radius less than this value"

So, if I understand new changes correctly, NPC frigates now will attack only small drones, [battle]cruisers only medium and small, battleships only heavies, sentries and fighters.
What if a drone is traveling at MWD speed, does that affect it?

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#13 - 2012-12-14 20:00:02 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Yep, would love to know what the "Tanking Modifier" is meant to be. If it mean drone damage is cut from the "wrong" drone size? That is, using a medium (but ignored) drone to (slower) take out the target that you should be using a heavy (attackable) drone to (faster) take out will result in medium drone suffering a DPS penalty because it's the "wrong tool for the job"? I hope not, because otherwise I want to see a similar modifier when using large missiles to hit small NPC ships.

Hope I'm wrong about this.


You seriously believe CCP will answer?
It took them 10 days to announce changes to this mess, and they have yet to acknowledge there was a problem in the first place.

The best part of this tanking modifier, if it is implemented as you described, is it is yet another major nerf to mission income.
Imagine someone saying, "I used to take out a Serp cruiser in 10 seconds with my Ogre II's, but now it takes 20 seconds, and I am making maybe 60% per tick compared to what I did pre-Retribution". That is so easy for the null sec zealots to simply say "you are lying, my income is untouched", and there is no way for the mission runner to prove otherwise.
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-12-14 20:23:21 UTC
the only real issue is the aggression NPCs have to drones and the annoyance of killing ratters in low security places. the former is being fixed and the latter may constitute some modifications to allow for it, however is not super necessary.

I dont see what the last couple of posts are insanely distraught and angry about.

Before you shun me for being a PvP guy, I do missions quite often on my alt. I also realize sometimes you have to modify to compensate for missions, not just fly the same thing you have been flying all the time and expect perfect performance. Thats what's happening right now. Yes, drones are getting aggressed too often, but thats just about all. No, you can't bring a friend in an untanked cruiser, because its nonsense that it was ever possible to do that originally. You need to be able to run a level 4 to run them, no shorcuts.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us

Rengerel en Distel
#15 - 2012-12-14 20:27:56 UTC
Instead of questioning CCP's motives and such about the change, why not test it out first? When i logged on, there were 3 people online. It's great to cry and whine about CCP not doing anything, but then when they ask for help, you just go "oh, they're not going to listen anyways ..." then if nothing is changed, you'll gloat about being right.

If CCP actually wanted to leave things as they were, they wouldn't have pushed this to Duality to have people test it.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.

Sarmatiko
#16 - 2012-12-14 20:36:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarmatiko
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
The best part of this tanking modifier, if it is implemented as you described, is it is yet another major nerf to mission income.

No one explained this attribute yet but you already jumped to conclusions and raging. You probably know that this modifier was introduced in Retribution with 0.5 value.
Let's speculate and assume that right now on TQ NPC tank is 50% weaker compared to pre-Retrubution unmodified "full tank" and this will change to 30%. So tell me where is "major nerf"? Didn't you just asked to "ROLLBACK THE CHANGES COMPLETELY" or weaker tanking should stay? Smile

ps: I dont see any nerfs to mission income. No one should generate ISK sitting afk on the mission, while drones kill all stuff.
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-12-14 20:53:06 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Yep, would love to know what the "Tanking Modifier" is meant to be. If it mean drone damage is cut from the "wrong" drone size? That is, using a medium (but ignored) drone to (slower) take out the target that you should be using a heavy (attackable) drone to (faster) take out will result in medium drone suffering a DPS penalty because it's the "wrong tool for the job"? I hope not, because otherwise I want to see a similar modifier when using large missiles to hit small NPC ships.

Since this is a patch to address drones being wiped out by NPCs, it's just as likely that it is some sort of factor that nerfs NPC damage when shooting any target that is a drone.

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?

Rengerel en Distel
#18 - 2012-12-14 21:09:03 UTC
Ran a couple of missions to test things out a bit.

Level 2 with a vexor, T1 lights. The npcs switched to the drones as on TQ. 4 Turrets hitting and a TD weren't able to reclaim aggro. For the most part, the damage was light on the drones, but there were only 2 or 3 npcs hitting, plus the vexor has a drone hp bonus. Overall, I didn't see any difference in the drone hate. They were all frigs and cruisers, and would switch to the drones every once in awhile. It wasn't the 2 minute amount people claim with Sleepers.

Level 4 blockade in a rattlesnake. Killing the battleships, never had them switch to sentries. The cruisers eventually switched to the sentries, though damage is hard to say, because the rattlesnake has a drone hp bonus too. Recalling the sentries and relaunching them, the cruisers would switch back again quicker than the 2 minutes. When the drones got aggro, cruise missiles and a TP weren't enough to get aggro back.

From just limited testing, the hate might be slightly less, but it wasn't noticeable in just 2 short tests. There still doesn't appear to be a way to get the aggro back besides recalling your drones or letting it die. That seems to be the most important part, having some method to get aggro back to the ship and off the drones.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#19 - 2012-12-14 21:23:45 UTC
Sarmatiko wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
The best part of this tanking modifier, if it is implemented as you described, is it is yet another major nerf to mission income.

No one explained this attribute yet but you already jumped to conclusions and raging. You probably know that this modifier was introduced in Retribution with 0.5 value.
Let's speculate and assume that right now on TQ NPC tank is 50% weaker compared to pre-Retrubution unmodified "full tank" and this will change to 30%. So tell me where is "major nerf"? Didn't you just asked to "ROLLBACK THE CHANGES COMPLETELY" or weaker tanking should stay? Smile

ps: I dont see any nerfs to mission income. No one should generate ISK sitting afk on the mission, while drones kill all stuff.


Right...sure, no nerf to mission income.
Yes, all those people that were screaming on the GD forums before CCP shut down the threads, they were imagining the hit to income.

I have to stop replying to troll posts. It is killing me.
Sarmatiko
#20 - 2012-12-14 21:47:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarmatiko
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have to stop replying to troll posts. It is killing me.

I liked the part where you avoided talk about actual numbers and switched to primitive "everyone is trolling me".
Very constructive.
And I really understand now why CCP don't listen to emotional feedback from people like you.
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