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Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2012-12-14 15:02:25 UTC
Cebraio wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

You know, there really is no need to complicate a simple definition - a bounty hunter is someone who hunts people for a reward. In that sense, a "contract killer" is just as much a bounty hunter, except that a bounty on someone's head basically makes it open season for any hunter, whereas a contract is a deal made between the party that wants someone dead, and a specific party to do the job.

Boba Fett was a bounty hunter, and he went after plenty of people that weren't technically criminals. Even in RL, there are bounty hunters that go after people with prices placed on their heads by criminal and terrorist organisations.

There is a difference between bounty hunters in fiction and bounty hunters in real life. I was comparing to bounty hunters in real life, who are playing by the law (mostly).

You may call them mafia-paid bounty hunters (does that exist?), I call them contract killers. To me, a bounty hunter is a person who hunts criminals for a reward, but who doesn't get criminal himself (at least he doesn't kill people). If you rather go with the Boba Fett (who is a criminal) definition, it's fine by me. Just we're talking about different things.


That's where you're mistaken. No offence.

Have you heard of that little girl in Pakistan? Malala, who got shot by the Taliban? Did you know they placed a bounty on her head? I can't remember how much, but that's irrelevant right now. The point is, criminal and terrorist and other non-legitimate organisations will put prices on other peoples' heads and bounty hunters do exist on the other side of the law in order to claim the rewards, in real life. And there is fierce competition.

There are two biker gangs in Australia, east coast, who are frequently at "war" with one another, usually in competition over the very rare bounty that gets placed on someone. If there is an open price on someone's head, it is a bounty, and it doesn't matter what side of the law they are on. If someone is going after that reward, then they are a bounty hunter, and it doesn't matter what side of the law they are on.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Cebraio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#42 - 2012-12-14 15:04:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Cebraio
Malcanis wrote:
Cebraio wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

You know, there really is no need to complicate a simple definition - a bounty hunter is someone who hunts people for a reward. In that sense, a "contract killer" is just as much a bounty hunter, except that a bounty on someone's head basically makes it open season for any hunter, whereas a contract is a deal made between the party that wants someone dead, and a specific party to do the job.

Boba Fett was a bounty hunter, and he went after plenty of people that weren't technically criminals. Even in RL, there are bounty hunters that go after people with prices placed on their heads by criminal and terrorist organisations.

There is a difference between bounty hunters in fiction and bounty hunters in real life. I was comparing to bounty hunters in real life, who are playing by the law (mostly).

You may call them mafia-paid bounty hunters (does that exist?), I call them contract killers. To me, a bounty hunter is a person who hunts criminals for a reward, but who doesn't get criminal himself (at least he doesn't kill people). If you rather go with the Boba Fett (who is a criminal) definition, it's fine by me. Just we're talking about different things.



There's a difference between employing a specific guy to do a specific job (contract killer) and just posting a reward for whoever does it. Even in real life, bounties weren't the exclusive preserve of those wishing to see criminals apprehended.

And in any case, "real life" in EVE is not necessarily anything like "real life" today. What kind of a crime is "murder" when the effect on the victim is merely the loss of a relatively small sum of ISK and possibly an inconvenient journey?

Good point. Brought forward well. I can only agree. Did I mention this discussion is futile? Cool


Remiel Pollard wrote:


That's where you're mistaken. No offence.

Have you heard of that little girl in Pakistan? Malala, who got shot by the Taliban? Did you know they placed a bounty on her head? I can't remember how much, but that's irrelevant right now. The point is, criminal and terrorist and other non-legitimate organisations will put prices on other peoples' heads and bounty hunters do exist on the other side of the law in order to claim the rewards, in real life. And there is fierce competition.

There are two biker gangs in Australia, east coast, who are frequently at "war" with one another, usually in competition over the very rare bounty that gets placed on someone. If there is an open price on someone's head, it is a bounty, and it doesn't matter what side of the law they are on. If someone is going after that reward, then they are a bounty hunter, and it doesn't matter what side of the law they are on.


No offense taken. You both are right. I guess I was too much thinking of the bounty hunter as the good guy, ignoring the cases where bounties are placed by the bad guys.

Nevertheless I see bounty hunting in EVE as a profession for good guys. Otherwise they would be just another form of "criminals". But I agree now that bounty hunting in EVE works both ways.
Turgesson
Gorillaz In The Mist
#43 - 2012-12-14 15:13:22 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:


Yes you can just shoot at people whenever you want to... however you need to be in a certain part of the EVE universe to just engage people. If your planning to do that in highsec your need to war dec them, or activate a killright on them... or trick them into becoming suspect.



Or gank the small expensive stuff.

But killrights should still trigger the old way in low sec. After the old ones wear off finding someone worthwhile in high sec with one will be a thing of the past. The good targets that come from high sec don't pod people because of the security hit and anyone who does pod non-suspects is more than likely -10 anyway. Making killrights transferable was nice but then changing how they get triggered pretty much makes it a non-feature.

It would have been nice to make the F1 lemmings think twice before blapping a hauler on a gate or whoring on an "afk" catalyst in a finished anom or....
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#44 - 2012-12-14 15:25:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Turgesson wrote:
After the old ones wear off finding someone worthwhile in high sec with one will be a thing of the past. The good targets that come from high sec don't pod people because of the security hit and anyone who does pod non-suspects is more than likely -10 anyway.

And again, I find this idea fascinating. Why would there be no more targets with killrights in highsec, when ganking is going on now as ever? And at that point, what do pods have to do with anything? You get kill rights for a dent in the fender in highsec, no podding needed (nor are they needed to collect the bounty any more).

Before, killrights were meaningless because only the victim could make use of them, and in highsec, they pretty much never did. Now all those people can offer their targets up for all comers. So how would this change make it harder to find people to target? Is it some part of the evaluation of “worth-while” that I'm missing?
Ayumi Nevinyrall
E-Baba
#45 - 2012-12-14 15:29:58 UTC
CCP why u no lock thread?

...
Doddy
Excidium.
#46 - 2012-12-14 15:41:59 UTC
The Lady Nighthawk wrote:
This video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hX0p0irEOls

Is the EvE Ret video

Except it's false advertising, because you cannot be a *bounty* hunter as you cannot just hunt players with bountys.
The kill rights have to be sold on. Which they never will because whats the point, the ISK payout is NOT the bounty, it's ship set

Bit of a lame thing to do tbfh, but then like all eve videos, promises the world and delivers spreadsheets


Why do you need killrights to claim a bounty? Most combat in eve happens in nullsec where killrights are meaningless, wormholes where they are meaningless, lo sec where they are not very useful and wars where they are meaningless. Plus you can still claim a bounty in hi sec without concord intervention by getting the target to go criminal. Even with concord intervention you can still claim the bounty in any case, it just costs you a ship (or more) to do so.

In the eve ret video the target is a pirate in lo sec who certainly can be shot freely to claim his bounty ayway.

So no false advertising anywhere.
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-12-14 16:01:44 UTC
maybe if you leave high sec...

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
LittleTerror
Stygian Systems
#48 - 2012-12-14 16:18:38 UTC
OP needs to biomass them self, this game is obviously too hard for them.
Turgesson
Gorillaz In The Mist
#49 - 2012-12-14 17:03:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Turgesson
Tippia wrote:
Turgesson wrote:
Or gank the small expensive stuff.

But killrights should still trigger the old way in low sec. After the old ones wear off finding someone worthwhile in high sec with one will be a thing of the past. The good targets that come from high sec don't pod people because of the security hit and anyone who does pod non-suspects is more than likely -10 anyway. Making killrights transferable was nice but then changing how they get triggered pretty much makes it a non-feature.

It would have been nice to make the F1 lemmings think twice before blapping a hauler on a gate or whoring on an "afk" catalyst in a finished anom or....

And again, I find this idea fascinating. Why would there be no more targets with killrights in highsec, when ganking is going on now as ever? And at that point, what do pods have to do with anything? You get kill rights for a dent in the fender in highsec, no podding needed (nor are they needed to collect the bounty any more).

Before, killrights were meaningless because only the victim could make use of them, and in highsec, they pretty much never did. Now all those people can offer their targets up for all comers. So how would this change make it harder to find people to target? Is it some part of the evaluation of “worth-while” that I'm missing?



I think you're missing a lot and don't understand what you're talking about if what I said confuses you.
The Lady Nighthawk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2012-12-14 17:17:15 UTC
Thats alot of hate to a simple comment and opinion

id advise you people go outside more often
Doc Severide
Doomheim
#51 - 2012-12-14 17:18:39 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
But your new so I expect some ignorance of how things works or how to go after players.

That's COMPLETELY unfair. I've been playing for years and I still don't know what the hell is going on...
The Lady Nighthawk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2012-12-14 17:19:04 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Cebraio wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

You know, there really is no need to complicate a simple definition - a bounty hunter is someone who hunts people for a reward. In that sense, a "contract killer" is just as much a bounty hunter, except that a bounty on someone's head basically makes it open season for any hunter, whereas a contract is a deal made between the party that wants someone dead, and a specific party to do the job.

Boba Fett was a bounty hunter, and he went after plenty of people that weren't technically criminals. Even in RL, there are bounty hunters that go after people with prices placed on their heads by criminal and terrorist organisations.

There is a difference between bounty hunters in fiction and bounty hunters in real life. I was comparing to bounty hunters in real life, who are playing by the law (mostly).

You may call them mafia-paid bounty hunters (does that exist?), I call them contract killers. To me, a bounty hunter is a person who hunts criminals for a reward, but who doesn't get criminal himself (at least he doesn't kill people). If you rather go with the Boba Fett (who is a criminal) definition, it's fine by me. Just we're talking about different things.


That's where you're mistaken. No offence.

Have you heard of that little girl in Pakistan? Malala, who got shot by the Taliban? Did you know they placed a bounty on her head? I can't remember how much, but that's irrelevant right now. The point is, criminal and terrorist and other non-legitimate organisations will put prices on other peoples' heads and bounty hunters do exist on the other side of the law in order to claim the rewards, in real life. And there is fierce competition.

There are two biker gangs in Australia, east coast, who are frequently at "war" with one another, usually in competition over the very rare bounty that gets placed on someone. If there is an open price on someone's head, it is a bounty, and it doesn't matter what side of the law they are on. If someone is going after that reward, then they are a bounty hunter, and it doesn't matter what side of the law they are on.


The diffrence being in RL anyone can take a contract, it doesnt need to be sold to them. In eve with this system, u can see a guy with a 50 billion isk bounty n if no one ahs kill rights, he just goes right by

am i going to fast for you?
The Lady Nighthawk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2012-12-14 17:20:24 UTC
Doc Severide wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
But your new so I expect some ignorance of how things works or how to go after players.

That's COMPLETELY unfair. I've been playing for years and I still don't know what the hell is going on...


People will troll for no reason, doesn't offend me in the slightest, just shows a lack of maturity
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2012-12-14 17:24:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
The Lady Nighthawk wrote:
Doc Severide wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
But your new so I expect some ignorance of how things works or how to go after players.

That's COMPLETELY unfair. I've been playing for years and I still don't know what the hell is going on...


People will troll for no reason, doesn't offend me in the slightest, just shows a lack of maturity


So it is mature to not to understand how things work.. and then complain how you thought it should work even though you don't know how it works.

i was pointing out a fact.... it is a bit different than trolling. Which I don't ever do.

Oh yeah.. I am most certainly going to come after your alliance.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Shamus O'Reilly
Candy Cabal
#55 - 2012-12-14 17:35:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Shamus O'Reilly
Scatim Helicon wrote:
The Widow cyno's out before the bounty hunters jump him, therefore the bounty hunting is taking place in lowsec or 0.0 where killrights don't matter.

Of course, there's the separate issue of lowsec and 0.0 depopulation because everyone is in highsec, making it unlikely that any bounty hunters would be in the exit system.

goes through kinakka... sees 30 in local. jumps to innia then eha. sees 10 in eha. goes down to kehjari. sees 4 in martoh and 6 in kehjari.. wheres this depopulation you speak of?

"I swear there are more people complaining over "nullsecers complaining" then actual nullsec people complaining."
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#56 - 2012-12-14 17:41:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Tiberius StarGazer wrote:
A hunter goes find its deer in the woods, not the cities.

If your looking for your bounty in high, then your looking in the wrong place, try looking in low where the pirates hang out.

Selling kill rights is a mechanism to prevent people being griefed by the bounty system if they haven't done anything wrong.

Although, I was thinking how awsome would it be if Concord was a joinable faction and you could automatically kill any low security player or one with a killright attached to them without having to buy it and earn LP for doing so.


You're no more right than the OP is.

Mostly just because you can basically hide in high sec, where someone would likely be forced to lose a ship in order to collect on the bounty; which will be unlikely to pay for the loss.

Also, everyone saying, "if you want to be a bounty hunter you should go to low or null" is also as wrong as the OP. No one should be "required" to go to low or null to be a bounty hunter, and being a high sec bounty hunter should be as viable a proffesion as being a low or null.

Afterall, where do you think most personal bounties are going to be the most abundant. There are hundreds of thousands more people flying around high sec than any other area of the game. If the majority of people were flying around in those places were a killright isn't needed to shoot someone without losing a ship I would agree, but they aren't are they.

The bounty system shouldn't make anyone in high sec be free to shoot, nor do I think peopel with large bounties should be able to use high sec mechanics to favor them. (IE as long as the bounty hunter is taking a loss, then you're not very likely to be blown up in high sec until you're flying something that will give a profit, and you have to be flying some incredibly expensive stuff to actually make a ganker a profit already).



I don't think you should be able to profit killing yourself for your bounty, I do think that large bounties in high sec should payout some small profit though. Whether or not that's even possible to achieve I don't know.

I do think that bounty payouts in general may need to be tweaked, and I only base that off of the things I've been seeing people mention about how it's paying out. Like only collecting on the value that isn't covered by insurance. I'm not really sure why they decided to make the bounty system care if a ship is insured or not. I can't imagine that it would allow someone to clear their bounty or blow themselves up for profit if the bounty system didn't factor in how much insurance paid the victim.

I can understand the module not contributing, if they don't. It's possible to manipulate the value of an item to abuse bounty payouts, kind of like what was done with the FW stuff. As well a some items end up estimated way under value.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#57 - 2012-12-14 17:53:25 UTC
Cebraio wrote:
Pohbis wrote:
Sorry dude, you can attack anyone. Nowhere does it say without consequences. Bounty hunters are not above the law.

Read point 3 again.

Forum quoting acts funny. It doesn't show your quote as I read it.

Comparing this to RL bounty hunting doesn't make much sense. Bounty hunters are after criminals. In EVE, someone with a bounty is not automatically a criminal. Furthermore if you attack someone in high sec just because he has a bounty, makes you a criminal. That's not really what the bounty hunter profession is about.

In the real world people hunting bounties placed on non-criminals are called hit men or assassins.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#58 - 2012-12-14 17:59:54 UTC
Cebraio wrote:
Pohbis wrote:
Cebraio wrote:
That's not really what the bounty hunter profession is about.
It is exactly what bounty hunters are about.

They are not above the law. They get paid to do a job, and sometimes that job involves breaking the law.

Stay out of sight of the authorities, you get away with it. Take someone down who is on their list, they'll leave you alone.

Bounties and killrights are two different mechanics for bounty hunting. One is a private bounty for a hit, that gets you in trouble if you break the law doing it. The other is sanctioned by the authorities.

The only thing missing is a reward for the CONCORD sanctioned hit, but ::exploits:: and all that.

If you want to compare EVE bounty hunting to real life, consider this:
- The job of a bounty hunter is to catch people and deliver them to authorities - not kill them.
- Killing someone because they are supposedly a criminal, is called vigilantism.
- Killing someone for money (who is not a criminal), is being a contract killer.
- Killing someone where no law enforcement will punish you, is anarchy.

Now let me get back to where I got dragged into this futile discussion. Killing someone with a bounty (who is not a criminal) in EVE has consequences depending on your location. In RL it would be either a suicidal contract kill or anarchy. Not bounty hunting.

(Furthermore this whole thing doesn't compare to RL bounty hunting, because all you do in EVE is destroy their property for money).


I see you continued the discussion.

In the real world we chose to recognize what side of the law the person is on and change the name from bounty hunter to assassin.

In EvE, where bounties are personal business transactions instead of federal mandates, this nicety is completely ignored (for obvious reasons.

And yes, obviously in a world of easy clone rebirth the most you can do is cause property damage and inconvenience... unless of course you want to explain to the player base how fun being locked up as a prisoner will be.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#59 - 2012-12-14 18:05:12 UTC
Cebraio wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

You know, there really is no need to complicate a simple definition - a bounty hunter is someone who hunts people for a reward. In that sense, a "contract killer" is just as much a bounty hunter, except that a bounty on someone's head basically makes it open season for any hunter, whereas a contract is a deal made between the party that wants someone dead, and a specific party to do the job.

Boba Fett was a bounty hunter, and he went after plenty of people that weren't technically criminals. Even in RL, there are bounty hunters that go after people with prices placed on their heads by criminal and terrorist organisations.

There is a difference between bounty hunters in fiction and bounty hunters in real life. I was comparing to bounty hunters in real life, who are playing by the law (mostly).

You may call them mafia-paid bounty hunters (does that exist?), I call them contract killers. To me, a bounty hunter is a person who hunts criminals for a reward, but who doesn't get criminal himself (at least he doesn't kill people). If you rather go with the Boba Fett (who is a criminal) definition, it's fine by me. Just we're talking about different things.

Perhaps it's time for you to stop insisting on placing your real world definitions on a Sci Fi universe...

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#60 - 2012-12-14 18:12:47 UTC
The Lady Nighthawk wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Cebraio wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

You know, there really is no need to complicate a simple definition - a bounty hunter is someone who hunts people for a reward. In that sense, a "contract killer" is just as much a bounty hunter, except that a bounty on someone's head basically makes it open season for any hunter, whereas a contract is a deal made between the party that wants someone dead, and a specific party to do the job.

Boba Fett was a bounty hunter, and he went after plenty of people that weren't technically criminals. Even in RL, there are bounty hunters that go after people with prices placed on their heads by criminal and terrorist organisations.

There is a difference between bounty hunters in fiction and bounty hunters in real life. I was comparing to bounty hunters in real life, who are playing by the law (mostly).

You may call them mafia-paid bounty hunters (does that exist?), I call them contract killers. To me, a bounty hunter is a person who hunts criminals for a reward, but who doesn't get criminal himself (at least he doesn't kill people). If you rather go with the Boba Fett (who is a criminal) definition, it's fine by me. Just we're talking about different things.


That's where you're mistaken. No offence.

Have you heard of that little girl in Pakistan? Malala, who got shot by the Taliban? Did you know they placed a bounty on her head? I can't remember how much, but that's irrelevant right now. The point is, criminal and terrorist and other non-legitimate organisations will put prices on other peoples' heads and bounty hunters do exist on the other side of the law in order to claim the rewards, in real life. And there is fierce competition.

There are two biker gangs in Australia, east coast, who are frequently at "war" with one another, usually in competition over the very rare bounty that gets placed on someone. If there is an open price on someone's head, it is a bounty, and it doesn't matter what side of the law they are on. If someone is going after that reward, then they are a bounty hunter, and it doesn't matter what side of the law they are on.


The diffrence being in RL anyone can take a contract, it doesnt need to be sold to them. In eve with this system, u can see a guy with a 50 billion isk bounty n if no one ahs kill rights, he just goes right by

am i going to fast for you?


Except, of course, that the opposite is actually happening... and due to the fact that the entire bounty isn't used up in one shot it is happening again and again and again...

Not a bad troll though.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.