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why train procurement & visibility?
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Praxis Ginimic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-12-14 09:31:45 UTC
One of my alts has recently engaged in some station trading with relative success. I've only logged him in for a couple of minutes during this week long trial and his begining bank roll was about 400K ISK... Now he is up to a few million. That is what I call a successful experiment. So now i want to skill him up properly as a trader and engage the market region wide. While perusing through the skills that I surmise I'll need I've found procurement & visibility which, as read it allows for region wide buying but I've already placed region wide buy orders without the skills. What am i missing here?
Nerath Naaris
Pink Winged Unicorns for Peace Love and Anarchy
#2 - 2012-12-14 09:56:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerath Naaris
Praxis Ginimic wrote:
One of my alts has recently engaged in some station trading with relative success. I've only logged him in for a couple of minutes during this week long trial and his begining bank roll was about 400K ISK... Now he is up to a few million. That is what I call a successful experiment. So now i want to skill him up properly as a trader and engage the market region wide. While perusing through the skills that I surmise I'll need I've found procurement & visibility which, as read it allows for region wide buying but I've already placed region wide buy orders without the skills. What am i missing here?


Yes, everyone can set up a buy order at the range he wants AT THE STATION HE CURRENTLY IS IN, but Procurement allows you to set up buy orders in systems you are NOT in.
Visibility complements this skill by allowing you to set the range of this remotely placed buy order to more than the station.

Example: You rightly don´t want to enter Jita for the cesspool it is, you you dock up a station in Otela (3 Jumps away from Jita). With Procurement of level 2, you can set up orders at Jita station 4/4.
If you have Visibiltiy Level 2, you can set up that Jita buy order to the maximum of 5 jumps from there.

Je suis Paris // Köln // Brüssel // Orlando // Nice // Würzburg, München, Ansbach // Saint-Étienne-du-Rouvray

Je suis Berlin // Fort Lauderdale // London // St. Petersburg // Stockholm

Je suis [?]
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-12-14 11:42:58 UTC
pretty much what the guy above me said. just as a side note, the skills are very useful if you are a mission runner and have to put up buy orders for tags but don't want to commute to your local trade hub all the time.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#4 - 2012-12-14 12:01:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Analogy time!

Regular buying is like sitting in a boat with a simple fishing rod and catching what's right under or close to the boat. You can always get a bigger rod, but that just means you're more likely to get stuck in the willows or having to reel in rubber boots from all over the pond, because there's no precision in it — everything gets caught in that long line. If you want precision again, you have to row over to the spot you're interested in and that's a lot of work.

Procurement lets you use small nets instead, and the higher the level, the farther away you can throw them from to boat to catch fish that's nowhere near you, but still within a very clearly defined area. Visibility lets you throw larger nets, which you may or may not want to do since you'll soon start collecting kelp and debris again.


Does that make it more opaque clear?
Nerath Naaris
Pink Winged Unicorns for Peace Love and Anarchy
#5 - 2012-12-14 12:29:28 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Analogy time!

Regular buying is like sitting in a boat with a simple fishing rod and catching what's right under or close to the boat. You can always get a bigger rod, but that just means you're more likely to get stuck in the willows or having to reel in rubber boots from all over the pond, because there's no precision in it — everything gets caught in that long line. If you want precision again, you have to row over to the spot you're interested in and that's a lot of work.

Procurement lets you use small nets instead, and the higher the level, the farther away you can throw them from to boat to catch fish that's nowhere near you, but still within a very clearly defined area. Visibility lets you throw larger nets, which you may or may not want to do since you'll soon start collecting kelp and debris again.


Does that make it more opaque clear?


And the guy waiting at the shore to to hit you over your head with a club and take all your fish away once you are done fishing would be the goons popping your freighter...Lol

Je suis Paris // Köln // Brüssel // Orlando // Nice // Würzburg, München, Ansbach // Saint-Étienne-du-Rouvray

Je suis Berlin // Fort Lauderdale // London // St. Petersburg // Stockholm

Je suis [?]
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-12-14 14:48:13 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Analogy time!

Regular buying is like sitting in a boat with a simple fishing rod and catching what's right under or close to the boat. You can always get a bigger rod, but that just means you're more likely to get stuck in the willows or having to reel in rubber boots from all over the pond, because there's no precision in it — everything gets caught in that long line. If you want precision again, you have to row over to the spot you're interested in and that's a lot of work.

Procurement lets you use small nets instead, and the higher the level, the farther away you can throw them from to boat to catch fish that's nowhere near you, but still within a very clearly defined area. Visibility lets you throw larger nets, which you may or may not want to do since you'll soon start collecting kelp and debris again.


Does that make it more opaque clear?

i prefer dynamite.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#7 - 2012-12-14 16:16:59 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Analogy time!

Regular buying is like sitting in a boat with a simple fishing rod and catching what's right under or close to the boat. You can always get a bigger rod, but that just means you're more likely to get stuck in the willows or having to reel in rubber boots from all over the pond, because there's no precision in it — everything gets caught in that long line. If you want precision again, you have to row over to the spot you're interested in and that's a lot of work.

Procurement lets you use small nets instead, and the higher the level, the farther away you can throw them from to boat to catch fish that's nowhere near you, but still within a very clearly defined area. Visibility lets you throw larger nets, which you may or may not want to do since you'll soon start collecting kelp and debris again.


Does that make it more opaque clear?

i prefer dynamite.

That works too. Anyone can pick any size dynamite and just drop it over the railing — it'll make a big mess (depending on the yield) and you'll have to row about and pick up all the dead fish across the entire pond. Tossing the stick a good distance away (procurement) and still having it hit properly when you start increasing the blast (visibility) requires some skill… P
Praxis Ginimic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-12-14 22:39:17 UTC
Ok, so let me see if I've got this. With procurement trained up i could be anywhere in say The Forge and specify that i want to place a buy order in Jita 4-4. With visibility trained up i can specify a region wide buy order from Jita 4-4, which means I'll still have to fly my happy as$ around to pick everything up?
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#9 - 2012-12-15 00:48:43 UTC
Praxis Ginimic wrote:
Ok, so let me see if I've got this. With procurement trained up i could be anywhere in say The Forge and specify that i want to place a buy order in Jita 4-4. With visibility trained up i can specify a region wide buy order from Jita 4-4, which means I'll still have to fly my happy as$ around to pick everything up?

Yes.

Though you can just sell the stuff again wherever it is, or hire somebody to move it for you (courier contracts).

Pure traders never undock from Jita IV - 4. It is one of the reasons why JIta has such a high player count.
Praxis Ginimic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-12-15 01:35:24 UTC
Thank you all for clearing that up. Especially Tipia & Tau. We can always count on the two of you to offer good advice with a minimum of troll. It seems that if i want my trade alt to be the real deal these are necessary skills. Perhaps i will make a fresh toon so as not to waste my neutral haulers pilot skills. Thanks again
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#11 - 2012-12-15 02:13:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Praxis Ginimic wrote:
Ok, so let me see if I've got this. With procurement trained up i could be anywhere in say The Forge and specify that i want to place a buy order in Jita 4-4. With visibility trained up i can specify a region wide buy order from Jita 4-4, which means I'll still have to fly my happy as$ around to pick everything up?

As mentioned, yes. I'd just chime in with some purely speculative guesswork and mention that, based on absolutely nothing, I would probably say that most procurement/visibility uses are done to let the trader sit in one system and set up system-wide or 1-jump buy orders in two or three larger hubs in a given region. That way, he only has a handful of systems to go to (but the swag might still be spread out over a decent amount of stations).

For instance, in The Citadel, you'd sit in Muvolailen — one jump away from Jita — and control buy orders in the good old mission hubs in and around Motsu and Irjunen and make those orders cover those two and maybe the surrounding systems. You don't need particularly high skill levels to do this, but you never know what you'll want to do some day so my standard advice of training everything to IV applies here too.
Praxis Ginimic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-12-15 10:24:29 UTC
That is essentially my plan, to use a mission hub and the surrounding systems somewhere slightly less crowded than Jita or Amarr. I've also considered inserting my new trade alt in npc null...
Thoughts? Warnings? Experiences?
El 1974
Green Visstick High
#13 - 2012-12-15 21:03:07 UTC
Praxis Ginimic wrote:
... I've also considered inserting my new trade alt in npc null...
Thoughts? Warnings? Experiences?

I have only very limited experience in NPC Null. Nullsec is not a place for station trading. Volumes in NPC null are very low, although the margins can be excellent. Nullsec has no industry to speak of, so the key in nullsec is access to a Jumpfreighter.