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Are hybrids mainly short ranged ? (Best race for me to train for my new power of 2 account?)
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DrunkenNinja
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#1 - 2012-12-14 00:16:49 UTC  |  Edited by: DrunkenNinja
Hi guys.
On my main account (this one) I currently have Minmatar ships trained. Frig 5, cruiser 5, covops, you know, that kind of stuff.
To my delight, CCP brought back power of 2 today and now I can have 2 accounts!

So, anyway, I probobly won't be training missile Caldari ships or any Minmatar ones, so it's either Hybrids/Gallente (and maybe fly Hybrid Caldari ships too) or Lasers/Amarr.

Note, having decent range on my weapons is a definate plus to me—someone told me once that Gallente were mainly for close range.
What are beam lasers like in comparison to rails? (Fitted to either Caldari or Gallente).
What are a few different aspects of both of the races that will help me make my decision?

Just to clarify, I'm mainly interested in PVP, and maybe doing some exploration sites later.
Escomboli
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2012-12-14 00:29:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Escomboli
DrunkenNinja wrote:
Hi guys.
On my main account (this one) I currently have Minmatar ships trained. Frig 5, cruiser 5, covops, you know, that kind of stuff.
To my delight, CCP brought back power of 2 today and now I can have 2 accounts!

So, anyway, I probobly won't be training missile Caldari ships or any Minmatar ones, so it's either Hybrids/Gallente (and maybe fly Hybrid Caldari ships too) or Lasers/Amarr.

Note, having decent range on my weapons is a definate plus to me—someone told me once that Gallente were mainly for close range.
What are beam lasers like in comparison to rails? (Fitted to either Caldari or Gallente).
What are a few different aspects of both of the races that will help me make my decision?




Blasters are very short range, rails are fairly long.


In general rails suck for everything, blasters are only good for PvP.


In my opinion Amarr has a better ship line, better weapon systems, better ewar.
Taoist Dragon
School of Applied Knowledge
#3 - 2012-12-14 00:38:33 UTC
if you are flying gallente then hybrids are the way to go.

Don't bother putting lasers on gal/cal ships.

But Amarr are nice and lasers lok the coolest of all weapons that aren't missiles

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#4 - 2012-12-14 00:40:38 UTC
You'll find that every race/weapon type has some good ships in both pvp and pve, that said:
If you like drones, go gallente, if not, go amarr. For pvp you can go either way, and in pve it breaks down like this:

If you're amarr you go for either a paladin or a nightmare (the nightmare is slightly better though) and if you're gallente you go for the vindi or the navy dominix (navy domi being slightly better). Gallente lose out on having to use long range guns (blasters don't have enough range for most PVE situations) but make up for it with more lows for damage mods. A rail domi puts out almost exactly the dps of a pulse nightmare for example, but gets better range and less tracking.
DrunkenNinja
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#5 - 2012-12-14 01:11:53 UTC
Thanks guys, I'm a fan of long range stuff.
Are beams pretty good? I hear the Oracle can be a nice ship.
PhatController
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-12-14 12:19:48 UTC
Rails can hit out well past many ships can target. Blasters are the short range hybrids and on small ships only hit out to a few Km's and the larger variants to 20km or so at most. The range:damage ratio of both of theses weapons can be drastically changed with different ammo types.
Akuma Tsukai
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-12-14 12:54:25 UTC
Couple more points:
Both blasters and pulses can be used in PVE with T2 ammo, with pulses being better at this.
Hybrids - only good vs serps, ok vs anything else
Lazors - good vs sansha/blood/drones, suck vs angels/mercs (which is bad since mercshave best loot).
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#8 - 2012-12-14 12:57:36 UTC
Escomboli wrote:
DrunkenNinja wrote:
Hi guys.
On my main account (this one) I currently have Minmatar ships trained. Frig 5, cruiser 5, covops, you know, that kind of stuff.
To my delight, CCP brought back power of 2 today and now I can have 2 accounts!

So, anyway, I probobly won't be training missile Caldari ships or any Minmatar ones, so it's either Hybrids/Gallente (and maybe fly Hybrid Caldari ships too) or Lasers/Amarr.

Note, having decent range on my weapons is a definate plus to me—someone told me once that Gallente were mainly for close range.
What are beam lasers like in comparison to rails? (Fitted to either Caldari or Gallente).
What are a few different aspects of both of the races that will help me make my decision?




Blasters are very short range, rails are fairly long.


In general rails suck for everything, blasters are only good for PvP.


In my opinion Amarr has a better ship line, better weapon systems, better ewar.


Small and large rails are pretty decent now. Medium rails are still horrible.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#9 - 2012-12-14 12:58:17 UTC
Akuma Tsukai wrote:
Couple more points:
Both blasters and pulses can be used in PVE with T2 ammo, with pulses being better at this.
Hybrids - only good vs serps, ok vs anything else
Lazors - good vs sansha/blood/drones, suck vs angels/mercs (which is bad since mercshave best loot).


Hybrids are pretty good vs Guristas too.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Maelle LuzArdiden
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-12-14 13:03:03 UTC
Small and large rails are good, steady, long range dps. Medium rails are overshadowed by the sheer brutality of blasters and the fact that Gal cruisers and bcs are not kiting ships by design (Talos kites with large blasters and Null, because they hit out to 30-40k)

That said, they are excellent on damping ships because of their range, and the new Thorax has quite a bit of railgun potential.

While it's cool that you like ranged weapons, I find their viability questionable in many typical pvp engagements for a simple reason- you can't tackle your targets at 50k unless you sit in a Gal recon or Proteus. You need to have a tackler with you, and even then roaming pvp is not ideal for a medium-long range sniper because of stargates, you spawn too close to targets.

So I think that being able to deal solid damage inside appropriate tackle range is more universally viable than having a longer turret optimal range. Tracking is very, very important in EVE combat.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#11 - 2012-12-14 14:24:43 UTC
Small time pvp, go Gallente. Dualboxing two Thoraxes with EC-600 drones are the ****

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#12 - 2012-12-14 16:14:54 UTC
As another note, Amar is arguably the only race that has ships that specialize in Drones, Missiles, and / or turrets. So no matter your preference, they do have some fun toys to play with. ;)

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-12-15 11:15:06 UTC
Railguns are bleh.... they don't have the alpha of the Artillery, they have the worst tracking, and they can't match the DPS of beam lasers. Their range is more or less the same as arty and beams for most purposes.
So rail guns just fail.... they use more ammo than Artillery (in terms of ISK, and m3), and still use cap to fire (though not nearly as much as lasers) - still, they are OK for most PvE purposes (dealing mainly Kinetic damage makes them ideal against serpentis and Guristas[well, aside from kinetic missiles], and pretty good vs Angels, the Therm/Kin mix makes them very good against mercenaries and mordus, while their 2ndary thermal makes them OK vs blood/ Sansha)
Blasters on the other hand do have a specific advantage, and that is DPS, lots of DPS relative to comparable weapons.

It used to be that Caldari had optimal range bonuses, and Gallente had damage bonuses for hybrids, making Caldari ships better at sniping, and gallente ships better at brawling...
but now Caldari hybrid boats get damage boosts (at least the frigs and cruisers),
So Gal and Caldari are equal on that ground
But Caldari are shield tanked with shield resist bonuses giving them more buffer (and when gallente fit plates.. caldari get better speed/agility), then factor in the Ancillary shield boosters that dont need cap...
ATM, caldari are pretty good with blasters too
Maelle LuzArdiden
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-12-15 12:05:48 UTC
Rails have second best tracking, and pretty much the same dps as beams but with more range, and are easiest to fit.
Kara Corvinus
The Empyrean Order
#15 - 2012-12-15 12:17:39 UTC
Ok as an amarr player, i can defiantly say the long range is good, you don't really need beams to much, as with an instant change of crystal on large pulses you can hit up around 45->50km

Amarr also bring some classy ships to the pvp table, with things like the pilgrim, curse, absolution ect,

however, everyone here is writing off galentee, blasters, in short are insane dps, couple this with large armour tanks & drone bays, the galentee arent a race you should dismiss so quickly.

The Incursus for example is probably the best solo t1 frig at the mo since the retribution launch, the t2 variations ishkur / enyo are extremly deadly.


The vexor & myrm have a long history of being amazing solo pvp boats,

someone using myrm for pvp =
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcRAx-uwk40

and then theres always the huge bonus, that if you get sick of having 2x pvp chars, a galentee drone pilot can solo lvl 3's easily in a myrm, or lvl 4's in a domi NI , while being AFK.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-12-16 21:00:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Verity Sovereign
Maelle LuzArdiden wrote:
Rails have second best tracking, and pretty much the same dps as beams but with more range, and are easiest to fit.


Damage modifier, cycle time -> Damage/cycle time : Tracking : Optimal, Falloff -> Optimal + falloff
Tachyon Beam Laser II: 5.4, 13s -> 0.4154 : 0.0139205 : 52.8, 20 -> 72.8
1400mm Artillery II: 12.807, 40.16 -> 0.3189 : 0.009 : 48, 35 -> 83
425mm Railgun II: 3.3, 10 -> 0.33 : 0.009625 : 57.60, 24 -> 81.6

So, lets look at that in each category relative to 425mm Rails

Alpha:
1400mm: 3.881x as much alpha
Tachyon: 1.636x (63% more alpha)
425s are dead last, by a long ways, in this area

DPS
1400mm: 96.6% the DPS of rails
Tachyons: 125.9% the DPS of rails - 25.9% more DPS - Hardly "pretty much the same DPS as beams
in this category, Rails and Arty are pretty much the same

Tracking:
1400mm: 93.5% the tracking of rails
Tachyons: 144.6% of the tracking of rails... that is a whopping >44% more tracking
In this category, rails and Arty are pretty much the same, with tachyons outshining them both by a lot

Range:
-Optimal:
1400: 83.33%
Tachyons: 91.67%
Ok, rails outshine here, but by less than 10% over tachyons... which have 25% more DPS, 63% more alpha, and 44% more tracking. 25% is enough that one can step down to a longer range, lower damage crystal, to get more range while maintaining DPS... or drop a heat sink for another tracking enhancer to still do more DPS at a range equal or greater to the rails

-falloff
1400mm: 145.83% - > ie 45% more falloff, and given the way TE/TC work (much larger bonus to falloff than to optimal), and that falloff isnt affected by ammo range penalties, 1400mm actually have the best range for most practical purposes.

Tachyons: 83.3% -> ok, so rails are better by a small but significant margin - but when is that range actually useful.
I've found that the optimal of tachyons with multifreq is plenty... and with such a huge tracking boost..its easy t swap to a range script and still have better tracking


*edit* I see I was using pre-hybrid buff stats, I see rail tracking is a whopping 5% better than it was before (yawn), and DPS is 10% better...

So tachs, rather than tracking 44.6% better track a "mere" 37.7% better - still more than 1 speed scripted TC
Instead of doing 25.6% more DPS, do 14.2% more DPS - about equal to the boost of a 2nd damage mod

Still I think as a whole, rails are underwhelming.
Its not that they suck... they just don't really shine in any area