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The Neural Remap Megathread

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octahexx Charante
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2012-12-12 16:23:17 UTC
considering skillchanges that are coming i thinka neural remap would be really nice,would also let people who wasted their time on caldari to crosstrain into something useful.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#42 - 2012-12-12 16:50:49 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Altrue wrote:
Considering the fact that we "have to" train for Destroyers and Battlecruisers V to avoid having to train four times these racial skills later, the idea of another free remap would be more than acceptable :)


That kind of solid logic is not allowed here! Blink


Strange, I needed no remap at all to complete those 2 particular skills. Of course, I trained them long ago when the racial desi and BC skills were first announced, but sure, lets help out everyone who didnt plan ahead and now wants yet another easy button. I guess 2 or 3 extra days of training for you will for sure kill your Eve.

Ps- Just to head off your eventual "Ill unsub (#) accounts for (reason) " threads, Your stuff, is it spoken for?

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Tiberius StarGazer
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#43 - 2012-12-12 17:40:05 UTC
I am less than a year old and Im just on my way to 7m sp. I've used all my remaps, but to say "Well your an idiot for using your remaps in such a short time is all your fault" is a bit narrow minded and frankly, insulting.

Litterally, a new players mentality is

First go: New buttons what do theses do? Read wiki, and mess about.

Second go: So now I know what this does, I'll do this and make it better.

Third go: I've changed my mind and I want to train something else, or last few tweaks to enhance plan.


And that's it. Your committed. Which personally I think is fine and fair. Three starting maps are great for the first year.

What this thread doesn't explain is are remaps stopping altogether? I doubt it.

Is this thread suggesting we should pay for remaps? Yes, and I like the suggestion. But I'll expand on that later.

I can be quite a fickle person, and to be perfectly honest, a lot of casual gamers are as well. While from a hardcore eve lifer the whole "Once you have chosen your path you must walk it forever otherwise get an alt because any other method is not efficient." is, IMHO, pretty narrow minded. New players gaming experience is in a lot of flux, one week you might be mining, the next in a WH corp, so it's quite right that 3 re-maps are offered because I doubt any new player really knows what they are doing, I know I didn't, and I don't see why anyone else should expect them too either.

I personally like to try something different every few months. I discover a new module, or ship, or weapon, and I like to dip my toe into it and run with it for a few weeks or a few months. For me it keeps the experience fresh. But not being able to remap means that training plans over 2/3months can be extended by days. And for me, I'm not keen on it.

This is probably where a lot of players are going "Get and Alt then!"

Simple reason, which many seem to forget, is that not everyone can dual box, have multi clients, afford to Pay or invest the time to generate 600m ISK a week to pay for both alts. Or, as with me, I like my one toon, and I don't want to change him, I've invested time.. a lot of time, (and I realise we all invest time) into this toon and I really cannot fathom investing anymore time into a new charecter. I work 50 hours a week and I just can't do it.

CCP has three options on remaps.

Keep as is, but then must adhere to a regular release schedule. It is unfair to include a game mechanic that people come to expect and not stick to it unless they are replacing it with another system with no notification. My toon for example is mapped for industry, but in the last week I have taken up residence in a WH this has vastly changed my skill plan for the next year, Im having to consider different haulage methods using cloakey transports, different defensive worries, and generally all the good things that come with WH life that I'm learning to deal with. So the prospect of not having that re-map suddenly becomes a big worry, particularly as having the wrong one can add days, even weeks to a year skill plan.

Second get rid of attributes all together. Which I also am not adverse to, mainly because it will get rid of this argument that keeps cropping up all the time, but also will level the playing field for everyone. But will remove players ability to specialise their toons to train for certain things faster, but at least then if you want to swap and change you can and surely that's a good thing.

3rd and final, Eve needs ISK sinks? Why not make a neural remap a purchasable voucher that's spawned by NPC stations with medical centres? It would defiantly fit in nicely in the eve universe as a service for your clone. But no, I'm not even considering doing it via AUR, it's a totally superficial game currency for dressing up your virtual barbie. Since ISK can buy PLEX and PLEX can buy AUR I just feel AUR is over complicating what should be a single currency market IMO. Either way, the importance of re-mapping is kept, because you have to spend ISK on it, and therefor you can give the people the choice of wasting ISK or not when you could continue on your path.

Just my thoughts on it, but I would personally want players to have either stability of a mechanic, the removal of the mechanic, or the choice.

Appologies for grammar and spelling, all done on a train on an iPhone.
Shaalira D'arc
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2012-12-12 17:45:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Shaalira D'arc
Remap items should be a player-based industry that uses, as its material cost, biomatter and implant components harvested from player corpses.

To prevent mass alt-podding (at least, without cost), such harvested materials should be restricted to clones above a certain grade and those carrying implants. The more expensive the pod, the higher the quantity and quality of materials that can be harvested from the corpse.
Yusef Yeasef Yosef
Doomheim
#45 - 2012-12-12 17:50:09 UTC
Altrue wrote:
Considering the fact that we "have to" train for Destroyers and Battlecruisers V to avoid having to train four times these racial skills later, the idea of another free remap would be more than acceptable :)


This has been known many times longer than it would take to train each to V with the worst attributes.
It's your own fault if you haven't trained them yet. Or bad luck if you just joined the game.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#46 - 2012-12-12 18:10:44 UTC
Tiberius StarGazer wrote:

While from a hardcore eve lifer the whole "Once you have chosen your path you must walk it forever otherwise get an alt because any other method is not efficient." is, IMHO, pretty narrow minded. New players gaming experience is in a lot of flux, one week you might be mining, the next in a WH corp, so it's quite right that 3 re-maps are offered because I doubt any new player really knows what they are doing, I know I didn't, and I don't see why anyone else should expect them too either..


But knowing that after I had used them up I would not have one for an entire 12 months certainly made me think harder about what I was doing...and really learn about the game details. And it's 12 months, not 'forever'. Not really quite sure of the point making attmpt here. When I had Charisma 'on full-blast' it did not stop me from training the odd 'wrong attribute' skill for a short while.



Tiberius StarGazer wrote:

Simple reason, which many seem to forget, is that not everyone can dual box, have multi clients, afford to Pay or invest the time to generate 600m ISK a week to pay for both alts. Or, as with me, I like my one toon, and I don't want to change him, I've invested time.. a lot of time, (and I realise we all invest time) into this toon and I really cannot fathom investing anymore time into a new charecter. I work 50 hours a week and I just can't do it..


That would be 1.2 Billion a month, not 600 M every week. We have all had to manage this issue for the entire past decade. It seems to me that you want some sort of special treatment. Due to RL nonsense I have had to cut down my own toons temporarily for awhile. IT's no big deal, and we all find a path throught it. I do not want this game delivered on a silver platter, nor do most players. Are you really happy playing ? (doesn't sound like it).



Tiberius StarGazer wrote:

Keep as is, but then must adhere to a regular release schedule. It is unfair to include a game mechanic that people come to expect and not stick to it unless they are replacing it with another system with no notification. My toon for example is mapped for industry, but in the last week I have taken up residence in a WH this has vastly changed my skill plan for the next year, Im having to consider different haulage methods using cloakey transports, different defensive worries, and generally all the good things that come with WH life that I'm learning to deal with. So the prospect of not having that re-map suddenly becomes a big worry, particularly as having the wrong one can add days, even weeks to a year skill plan..


Listen to what you said. DAYS. This game takes YEARS to learn and play. This current system is not stopping that.

Tiberius StarGazer wrote:

Second get rid of attributes all together. Which I also am not adverse to, mainly because it will get rid of this argument that keeps cropping up all the time, but also will level the playing field for everyone. But will remove players ability to specialise their toons to train for certain things faster, but at least then if you want to swap and change you can and surely that's a good thing.
.


And throw out one of the basic foundations of RPG games for the past 38 years.


Tiberius StarGazer wrote:

3rd and final, Eve needs ISK sinks? Why not make a neural remap a purchasable voucher that's spawned by NPC stations with medical centres? It would defiantly fit in nicely in the eve universe as a service for your clone. But no, I'm not even considering doing it via AUR, it's a totally superficial game currency for dressing up your virtual barbie. Since ISK can buy PLEX and PLEX can buy AUR I just feel AUR is over complicating what should be a single currency market IMO. Either way, the importance of re-mapping is kept, because you have to spend ISK on it, and therefor you can give the people the choice of wasting ISK or not when you could continue on your path..


You don't seem to understand that even if it cost 10 currently priced PLEX to do this there are players whodcould buy one every single week. It would most indeed be unbalanced.

Sorry to be harsh, but you want EASY.

I do not.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
CARB0N FIBER
Derailleurs
#47 - 2012-12-12 19:25:46 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Suvetar
Wish I could sell mine. don't see a point in using them. I perfer balancing my attributes so I can train what need to be trained when I want to without handicapping myself.
Ginger Barbarella
#48 - 2012-12-12 19:44:50 UTC
Nex apparatu5 wrote:
So, the most recent dev blog talked about Christmas and the celebrations that would be taking place.

Notably absent were neural remaps. We will not be receiving a bonus remap this year.

I've heard people saying this is a good thing (CCP shouldn't give out stuff that has a tangible in-game benefit) and that this is a welcome trend from CCP giving out items that are more than cosmetic.

On the flip side, I've heard people a little bit sad/angry they won't get another remap and will be stuck in their current remap longer than planned.

So, I ask, how does this make you feel? Should remaps be brought back? Should presents always be cosmetic? Should remaps be added to the Aurum store? Discuss!


OP, I couldn't care less. Really, not a single whit more of "less caring" can be had here. CCP already gives one free remap every year, and (except for noobs) if you planned your training schedule and implant insertion correctly there reallly shouldn't be an issue.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Zack Korth
Livid CO.
#49 - 2012-12-12 20:00:07 UTC
we're supposed to get bonus re-maps! weather i suck or not, is irrelevant, i want that re-map!
Tiberius StarGazer
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#50 - 2012-12-13 00:26:53 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
But knowing that after I had used them up I would not have one for an entire 12 months certainly made me think harder about what I was doing...and really learn about the game details. And it's 12 months, not 'forever'. Not really quite sure of the point making attmpt here. When I had Charisma 'on full-blast' it did not stop me from training the odd 'wrong attribute' skill for a short while.


I'm definitely not disagreeing with you on this point, hence why I think 3 first year is good, and one for every year is also ok, but some people are saying nerf the 3 free ones and my point was, I feel this is not the right way to go.


Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
That would be 1.2 Billion a month, not 600 M every week. We have all had to manage this issue for the entire past decade. It seems to me that you want some sort of special treatment. Due to RL nonsense I have had to cut down my own toons temporarily for awhile. IT's no big deal, and we all find a path throught it. I do not want this game delivered on a silver platter, nor do most players. Are you really happy playing ? (doesn't sound like it).


Yeah my bad like I said, was doing this on a train and didn't have time to properly proof read.

I'm not suggesting "special" treatment, but maybe you need to understand that people who put that sort of time into a game are "special". I would bet 80% of players, who seriously want to develop their toon properly will only have one and do not have the time or the money to invest into and pay for multiple accounts. Or maybe they just don't want one. Indeed, as part of an RPG experience, people may be attached to their one character. I know I am. By implementing a system that means you restrict the ability of that person to train at a reasonable speed or change direction of a character in a game as vast as eve is somewhat naive. People get bored of doing the same thing over and over. Give them the ability to change, or at least the option, to develop and evolve in different direction and be able to develop said skills, will mean they can retain interest, keeping player numbers up. Putting player development on rails will mean people are more likely to switch off.

As for your opprobrious final sentence, if I didn't enjoy the game why would have I played (and paid!) for the last 6 months? Or even take time out to read the forum and reply?


Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:

Listen to what you said. DAYS. This game takes YEARS to learn and play. This current system is not stopping that.


Re read it again, I said DAYS or WEEKS off a YEAR skill plan. Again, if the mechanic is there for that purpose, and clearly a few days training time means nothing to you (believe me, the older you get, the more important they become) then you essentially agree to my second point.


Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
And throw out one of the basic foundations of RPG games for the past 38 years.


Just because its been part of RPG games, doesn't mean it's a mandatory mechanic. Nothing ever improves by keeping things the same.


Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:

You don't seem to understand that even if it cost 10 currently priced PLEX to do this there are players whodcould buy one every single week. It would most indeed be unbalanced.


And what impact does that have on other players? Quite clearly the benefit of the system is in long term impact on training. I get that. If players want to sink billions of ISK buying a remap to shave off a few hours training time, so be it. The simple fact is, the more often you re-map, the less of an advantage it gives you. Your argument that it somehow gives you an unfair advantage I feel is somewhat flawed.
Tiberius StarGazer
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#51 - 2012-12-13 00:32:28 UTC
Shaalira D'arc wrote:
Remap items should be a player-based industry that uses, as its material cost, biomatter and implant components harvested from player corpses.

To prevent mass alt-podding (at least, without cost), such harvested materials should be restricted to clones above a certain grade and those carrying implants. The more expensive the pod, the higher the quantity and quality of materials that can be harvested from the corpse.


I would like to add this option to number 4 in my list, very creative.
Torak Dakos
The Reckless Masquerade
#52 - 2012-12-14 01:24:07 UTC
older players have little use for remaps because we have trained all the Essential already and are at the long skills where we can easily make a 1 year plan for a specific mapping, personally i currently have 3 remaps.

on the other hand newer players need to train skill in many different categories.

because of this i think an extra remap would be the best choice because it helps newer players, lets be fair, we need them.

also it's really sad to see the community filled with self important jerks just laughing at newer players mistakes and almost wanting to rob them of a little convenience.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#53 - 2012-12-14 02:20:01 UTC
Welp, your not getting one anyway for xmas.....so there. Smile

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Az Tek
Overheat.Everything
#54 - 2012-12-14 02:50:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Az Tek
iskflakes wrote:
Neural remaps should be added to the NEX store for something like 1000 AUR (50m isk)


50Mil a remap? lol Way to cheap. If they did do that, which I would hope they wouldn't, it should cost closer to 500Mil-1Bil per remap. EVE is already on the borderlines of pay to win. The last thing we need is to enable more of it. Next they'll be selling skillpoints.

Also as a few have said remaps are more profitable to newer players trying to get to a decently playable 'level' in game. Don't think they should be taken away at all. Gifts are fine. But to buy would be to sell your sell.

Fight, Fly, Crow... Bangerang
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#55 - 2012-12-14 02:52:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Az Tek wrote:
iskflakes wrote:
Neural remaps should be added to the NEX store for something like 1000 AUR (50m isk)


50Mil a remap? lol Way to cheap. If they did do that, which I would hope they wouldn't, it should cost closer to 500Mil-1Bil per remap.



Still a drop in the bucket.

Maybe 20 Billion.

Even then there are a LOT who could afford one a week if they wanted.






edit: at your prices I could afford 4, up to 8, and I'm low income.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Az Tek
Overheat.Everything
#56 - 2012-12-14 02:55:33 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Az Tek wrote:
iskflakes wrote:
Neural remaps should be added to the NEX store for something like 1000 AUR (50m isk)


50Mil a remap? lol Way to cheap. If they did do that, which I would hope they wouldn't, it should cost closer to 500Mil-1Bil per remap.



Still a drop in the bucket.

Maybe 20 Billion.

Even then there are a LOT who could afford one a week if they wanted.






edit: at your prices I could afford 4, up to 8, and I'm low income.



Yeah your right. Need a 2 remaps? Buy two plex for the price i listed. Should be more. Much Much more. I hope it never comes down to that at all. No ability to buy SP or Remaps. Or anything else that has a direct effect on PERMA game style.

Fight, Fly, Crow... Bangerang
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#57 - 2012-12-14 02:59:35 UTC
Az Tek wrote:


Yeah your right. Need a 2 remaps? Buy two plex for the price i listed. Should be more. Much Much more. I hope it never comes down to that at all. No ability to buy SP or Remaps. Or anything else that has a direct effect on PERMA game style.



Exactly. Note my earlier posting about the hard decison to train outside of the remap for a week or so while under "Charisma on Full-Blast".

EVE should involve making meaningful decisions. The Devs even said that when the Mining Barge changes were made.

Instead of having job specific barges and exhumers as they were, the miners must now make 'meaningful decisions' about what to fly and how to fit it. I won't forget that, ever.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#58 - 2012-12-14 03:14:45 UTC
Hi,

This thread was cleaned up; please make your responses constructively!

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2012-12-14 04:36:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Dorian Wylde
Nex apparatu5 wrote:


On the flip side, I've heard people a little bit sad/angry they won't get another remap and will be stuck in their current remap longer than planned.!


Their fault for planning on something they weren't sure they would have.

Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Az Tek wrote:
iskflakes wrote:
Neural remaps should be added to the NEX store for something like 1000 AUR (50m isk)


50Mil a remap? lol Way to cheap. If they did do that, which I would hope they wouldn't, it should cost closer to 500Mil-1Bil per remap.



Still a drop in the bucket.

Maybe 20 Billion.

Even then there are a LOT who could afford one a week if they wanted.






edit: at your prices I could afford 4, up to 8, and I'm low income.



While I'm a little skeptical that anyone could keep up 20 bil per week, I would be fine with it due simply to taking that much isk out of the game so often.
Eternal Error
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2012-12-14 04:51:44 UTC
Stop whining. Remaps are intended to be there in case you screwed up your attributes, not so that you can min/max plans. Frankly I think it's ridiculous that you get one a year.