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Why does nullsec care so much about what highsec is doing?

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#341 - 2012-12-13 16:46:32 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
EvE has to contain the places for the coach, match officials, concession stand, and audience all as part of the *same game* for your analogy to even be relevant, and as soon as it does you can see that your argument is pointless.

EvE is also designed so that raw strength isn't the only way to win, so the other part of your argument falls over as well since someone can "win EvE" by running the most profitable concession stand without ever taking to the field.



So long as the consession stand owner understands he can still be hit in the head with a ball because he's near a rugby game, let him sling as much junk food as he wants.

it's when he wants rugby banned because "sport isn't his playstyle" that he can F off.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#342 - 2012-12-13 16:50:44 UTC
Qvar Dar'Zanar wrote:
Danks wrote:
Quote:
I'm sure there are a lot of other people out there who can tolerate the competition but don't enjoy it the same way you or I might, are you saying that they shouldn't have a place in the game?


I would say they shouldn't. Eve is a multiplayer competitive game, F those people.


Good luck playing alone with your alts and your principles.

Btw when did he said that those guys weren't 'competitive' it's just that some people dont care about the pewpewboom way of being competitive. I know it's quite hard to imagine for the average null-sec player (sarcasm implied), but some people may have fun with the risk of, say, living in non-hisec space, or even just putting a target or their backs by afk mining, while not continually dropping ships on anybody that happens to enter sigth just because lol.


And just who is talking about "pewpewboom"?

That's the original point I was making, the silliness of people believing that anyone care about what they do, and how those people morph EVERY argument into "you just want me to play your way".

Those types of people can't see the difference. That can't see that saying "play the game anyway you choose, but every choice has consequences" IS NOT the same thing as saying "play my way or else".
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#343 - 2012-12-13 16:55:52 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:

I personally know a person who won't play any MMO ever because the thought that there is a live person on the other end of the pixels that they are competing with is just too much to take.


Then that person is much smarter than the literal legions of EVE players who basically play EVE IN SPITE of what EVE is.

Quote:

You might think it's silly, but for them it's real.

I'm sure there are a lot of other people out there who can tolerate the competition but don't enjoy it the same way you or I might, are you saying that they shouldn't have a place in the game?


Where did I ever say anything of the sort.

This is what I'm talking about. I type stuff in plain English and all of a sudden it gets morphed into something i never even suggested

Quote:

To be successful, EvE needs to be appealing to enough players to pay the bills, and due to spaceships being less appealing to most people than humanoid avatars that's going to mean leaving a space for the competition-averse who also happen to like spaceships.


Do too much of that and you might as well take away the space ships. At some point CCP has to make a choice: excellent niche spaceship game that is profitable but not a money printing machine OR average but more profitable mass appeal game set in space.

I vote for excellence.

Quote:

WiS, properly done, could allow for a more aggressive stance overall. Dust 514 certainly does, but only on that front of the game.


Just say no to space barbies.
Ginger Barbarella
#344 - 2012-12-13 16:57:14 UTC
Hasn't this question been answered already? Answer given, but others still need to argue, troll, whatever without having a clue how the other side thinks.

I love this forum. Roll

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#345 - 2012-12-13 17:01:07 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
So long as the consession stand owner understands he can still be hit in the head with a ball because he's near a rugby game, let him sling as much junk food as he wants.

it's when he wants rugby banned because "sport isn't his playstyle" that he can F off.


Doubly so when he's saying this while very directly profiting off of rugby.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#346 - 2012-12-13 17:28:34 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
So long as the consession stand owner understands he can still be hit in the head with a ball because he's near a rugby game, let him sling as much junk food as he wants.

it's when he wants rugby banned because "sport isn't his playstyle" that he can F off.


Doubly so when he's saying this while very directly profiting off of rugby.

Most concession stands are on the back sides of the stands for exactly this reason.

How well would the concessions run at a rugby match if they had to be on the field? They'd be trashed with sausage, soda, and money scattered to the four winds.

Different parts of the game have different requirements for competition. For merchants and harvesters one of the best ways to be profitable is to be as far out from underfoot from the combat competition as possible.

Obviously there has to be *some* amount of exposure to get at the best resources and make the best per-unit profits, but you can't simply say "everyone needs to be fully exposed all the time" and expect it to lead to a game that's enjoyable for everyone.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#347 - 2012-12-13 17:35:05 UTC
Hi, I'm Buzzy Warsil and I'm obtuse as ****. I just hope for the sake of those around you that it's intentional.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#348 - 2012-12-13 17:38:26 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
So long as the consession stand owner understands he can still be hit in the head with a ball because he's near a rugby game, let him sling as much junk food as he wants.

it's when he wants rugby banned because "sport isn't his playstyle" that he can F off.


Doubly so when he's saying this while very directly profiting off of rugby.

Most concession stands are on the back sides of the stands for exactly this reason.

How well would the concessions run at a rugby match if they had to be on the field? They'd be trashed with sausage, soda, and money scattered to the four winds.

Different parts of the game have different requirements for competition. For merchants and harvesters one of the best ways to be profitable is to be as far out from underfoot from the combat competition as possible.

Obviously there has to be *some* amount of exposure to get at the best resources and make the best per-unit profits, but you can't simply say "everyone needs to be fully exposed all the time" and expect it to lead to a game that's enjoyable for everyone.


I don't expect the game to be enjoyable for everyone.

And who is saying everyone needs to be fully exposed? In fact, what are you on about.

i'm starting to suspect trolling, no one could be that....I don't even know what to cal this.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#349 - 2012-12-13 17:40:14 UTC
He's taking your broad example of a sporting event and being hyperspecific with it. Whether it's to troll or because he's thick as **** remains to be seen, but really, does it matter?

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#350 - 2012-12-13 17:53:08 UTC
I think that y'all have been proving the OP's point quite nicely.

The fact is that at a rugby match the rugby players don't give a crap what the concession stand owner is doing during the match. They don't come around the stands to give him a good tackle just for profiting off their game.

Speaking of obtuse, failure to recognize that not everyone is like you is pretty obtuse, isn't it?

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Acac Sunflyier
The Ascended Academy
#351 - 2012-12-13 18:13:28 UTC
Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote:
[quote=Mirime Nolwe]

4) Lastly, I fail to see how the economy is so horribly unbalanced in favor of highsec at the moment, and even if it were, how this would affect nullsec in any significant way, given that many nullsec corporations and alliances are not only capable of pulling in hefty amounts of ISK, but are also capable of producing their own equipment.


It isn't that the economy i skewed for null sec. It's more that certain activities are 1,000 easier to do in highsec than nullsec. Take industry for example. manufacturing. In order for manufacturing to happen in nullsec, first minerals must be moved from one station to another. In nullsec some stations can reprocess but have no manufacturing slots at all. In others, there is manufacturing and no reprocessing. In others there is only research and no manufacturing or reprocessing. Three out of the four types of stations have about 6 corp office slots while one has 24 but no research, manufacturing, or reprocessing. That gets the nullers kinda upset with the extra hoops.
Acac Sunflyier
The Ascended Academy
#352 - 2012-12-13 18:20:49 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


This is an example of the bad logic coming out of high sec people, and the main reason why many of us dislike them. It amounts to another "why won;t you leave us alone" post.

You want to be left alone, log off.

Most of those "high sec people" are "single player game people in a multiplayer game" solo types that don't care about anything (like voting for the csm lol), even though the whole game is one complex organism with lots of moving parts. EVERYTHING everyone does just about affects everyone else, and people who have ventured out from under CONCORD's skirts know this.

So no, we won't leave you alone, CCP won't trammel-shard the servers to keep you away from us, you have more than enough tools like safeties and CONCORD to keep you "safe" in a game with no safety. And Yes, we will continue to point out to CCP and all that the risk/reward balances of the game are off, and that being able to sit in the most protected space and (as an individual shotin red Xs) still make as much isk as you could in the most dangerous space is wrong.


The fault with your logi is most of sov is pretty damn safe. I've seen miners in their huls fall asleep at the keyboard mining in sov space. The real risk is all in NPC null sec (aka shark dens). The further out you are in null sec the less people bother you. The only real time you're in trouble is if your neighbor is mad at you.

As for the isk/hr argument, I do believe c5 wormholes spawn in sov space regularly. You can even get an upgrade to raid them more often. Also, you can get upgrades to increase faction spawns, complex spawns, and officer spawns in a system. I do know a few people in null sec who make billions a week by doing 10/10s and still pvp quite often.
Acac Sunflyier
The Ascended Academy
#353 - 2012-12-13 18:27:39 UTC
Bump Truck wrote:




They have VAST amounts of ore ... so they can churn out industrial goods at an insane rate, dragging the prices right through the floor.




True but that huge amount of ore is what keeps the price of goods down. I invite you to recall the price of trit during the hulkaggedon that happened WHILE the drone goo was being removed. Fact is, without highsec people mining that vast amount of veldspar, those 425mm railguns would be 5x as expensive. And that'd translate to a 5 billion isk carrier in lowse; 7 in null from your own alliance.

Also, those highsecers keep the fuel flowing for those huge cap fights. Remeber when an isotope was around 1k a unit? That was very expensive for the individual person to keep their carrier/jf going to keep the wheels of war spinning. I don't see the large amount of ore and turning out goods at a fast rate as a bad thing.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#354 - 2012-12-13 18:38:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Acac Sunflyier wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


This is an example of the bad logic coming out of high sec people, and the main reason why many of us dislike them. It amounts to another "why won;t you leave us alone" post.

You want to be left alone, log off.

Most of those "high sec people" are "single player game people in a multiplayer game" solo types that don't care about anything (like voting for the csm lol), even though the whole game is one complex organism with lots of moving parts. EVERYTHING everyone does just about affects everyone else, and people who have ventured out from under CONCORD's skirts know this.

So no, we won't leave you alone, CCP won't trammel-shard the servers to keep you away from us, you have more than enough tools like safeties and CONCORD to keep you "safe" in a game with no safety. And Yes, we will continue to point out to CCP and all that the risk/reward balances of the game are off, and that being able to sit in the most protected space and (as an individual shotin red Xs) still make as much isk as you could in the most dangerous space is wrong.


The fault with your logi is most of sov is pretty damn safe. I've seen miners in their huls fall asleep at the keyboard mining in sov space. The real risk is all in NPC null sec (aka shark dens). The further out you are in null sec the less people bother you. The only real time you're in trouble is if your neighbor is mad at you.


Or is ONE random neutral comes in. Havign sov means nothing, anyone can travel into your space.

Quote:

As for the isk/hr argument, I do believe c5 wormholes spawn in sov space regularly. You can even get an upgrade to raid them more often. Also, you can get upgrades to increase faction spawns, complex spawns, and officer spawns in a system. I do know a few people in null sec who make billions a week by doing 10/10s and still pvp quite often.


Are you related to that Buzzy person?

This is what I mean about high sec people. You don't know much about the game outside high sec but you sure have opinions about everything.

There is NOW way to get more factions spawns and no way to make officer spawns be anything other than random.

And lol to the wormhole thing. You suggest that null sec is fine because you can leave null sec for a wormhole and make isk? Did you actually read what you typed there?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#355 - 2012-12-13 18:43:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Acac Sunflyier wrote:
Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote:


4) Lastly, I fail to see how the economy is so horribly unbalanced in favor of highsec at the moment, and even if it were, how this would affect nullsec in any significant way, given that many nullsec corporations and alliances are not only capable of pulling in hefty amounts of ISK, but are also capable of producing their own equipment.


It isn't that the economy i skewed for null sec. It's more that certain activities are 1,000 easier to do in highsec than nullsec. Take industry for example. manufacturing. In order for manufacturing to happen in nullsec, first minerals must be moved from one station to another. In nullsec some stations can reprocess but have no manufacturing slots at all. In others, there is manufacturing and no reprocessing. In others there is only research and no manufacturing or reprocessing. Three out of the four types of stations have about 6 corp office slots while one has 24 but no research, manufacturing, or reprocessing. That gets the nullers kinda upset with the extra hoops.


The little detail is, you don't cut a leg to cure the headache.
If all those super-vocal dudes started creating some constructive thread about adding manufacturing and refining slots and whatever else is needed, maybe CCP would take them in more account than when they just demand nerfs on unrelated other content.

Just the attitude of "if I can't have it then nobody else shall" is a crappy attitude that characterizes envious and bilious people.

I bet that if they switched to just asking what they need they'd even get support from the other players. But no, they prefer putting themselves in the "nasty ass niche", spew bile around and demand CCP listens to them. Not going to happen.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#356 - 2012-12-13 18:53:06 UTC
Acac Sunflyier wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


This is an example of the bad logic coming out of high sec people, and the main reason why many of us dislike them. It amounts to another "why won;t you leave us alone" post.

You want to be left alone, log off.

Most of those "high sec people" are "single player game people in a multiplayer game" solo types that don't care about anything (like voting for the csm lol), even though the whole game is one complex organism with lots of moving parts. EVERYTHING everyone does just about affects everyone else, and people who have ventured out from under CONCORD's skirts know this.

So no, we won't leave you alone, CCP won't trammel-shard the servers to keep you away from us, you have more than enough tools like safeties and CONCORD to keep you "safe" in a game with no safety. And Yes, we will continue to point out to CCP and all that the risk/reward balances of the game are off, and that being able to sit in the most protected space and (as an individual shotin red Xs) still make as much isk as you could in the most dangerous space is wrong.


The fault with your logi is most of sov is pretty damn safe. I've seen miners in their huls fall asleep at the keyboard mining in sov space. The real risk is all in NPC null sec (aka shark dens). The further out you are in null sec the less people bother you. The only real time you're in trouble is if your neighbor is mad at you.

As for the isk/hr argument, I do believe c5 wormholes spawn in sov space regularly. You can even get an upgrade to raid them more often. Also, you can get upgrades to increase faction spawns, complex spawns, and officer spawns in a system. I do know a few people in null sec who make billions a week by doing 10/10s and still pvp quite often.


Yes and the alliances that live out there have to hold the sov, use the space the right way in the right amount and spend serious isk on infrastructure upgrades in order to get that, dont even try and claim thats something that happens in every system in null.

And since you think null is so safe let me ask you a few questions

1. Is it possible anywhere in highsec for you to lose access to a station and all the assets you have in it?
2. Is it possible in highsec for you to be mining/ratting/traveling and someone completely random shows up, kills you and then goes on their merry way with neither consequence nor hinderance?

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome
Eurydia Vespasian
Storm Hunters
#357 - 2012-12-13 19:01:27 UTC
well, as a pilot that lives in low sec mostly, i find it profitable to ignore politics and just deliver goods to high sec that they have trouble getting and then loading up on stuff low and null have trouble getting and...just run back and forth. i feel like a smuggler with a little mining thrown in between maybe. lol

i don't care too much for what either side does or thinks about the other rofl
Bud Austrene
Secure Haven
#358 - 2012-12-13 21:04:39 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


This is an example of the bad logic coming out of high sec people, and the main reason why many of us dislike them. It amounts to another "why won;t you leave us alone" post.

You want to be left alone, log off.

Most of those "high sec people" are "single player game people in a multiplayer game" solo types that don't care about anything (like voting for the csm lol), even though the whole game is one complex organism with lots of moving parts. EVERYTHING everyone does just about affects everyone else, and people who have ventured out from under CONCORD's skirts know this.

So no, we won't leave you alone, CCP won't trammel-shard the servers to keep you away from us, you have more than enough tools like safeties and CONCORD to keep you "safe" in a game with no safety. And Yes, we will continue to point out to CCP and all that the risk/reward balances of the game are off, and that being able to sit in the most protected space and (as an individual shotin red Xs) still make as much isk as you could in the most dangerous space is wrong.


I would also like to know "why won't you leave us alone" not because i want you to leave me alone but because I would like to understand what i am doing that is so wrong.
I do not get along with others well, so i like playing solo.
I like Concord's protection.
I am having fun mining, doing missions and manufacturing.
I have dipped into wormholes and plan to expand in that direction.
I do not believe in going out of my way to pick a fight and will run from one if i am able.
I do not see the point in fighting other players if there is no profit.
I recognize there is a lot of players that feel differently but i do not see how that makes them right and me wrong.
I am playing well within the rules of the game and having fun.
I do not see that i have to have fun at the expense of others.

Could you explain how I am so wrong and maybe why you seem to feel the need to campaign against me and people like me.
Am I evil?

Yes I am an alt. I see no reason to make it easy for bullies and greifers

Nytak
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#359 - 2012-12-13 21:14:33 UTC
Bud Austrene wrote:

I would also like to know "why won't you leave us alone" not because i want you to leave me alone but because I would like to understand what i am doing that is so wrong.
I do not get along with others well, so i like playing solo.
I like Concord's protection.
I am having fun mining, doing missions and manufacturing.
I have dipped into wormholes and plan to expand in that direction.
I do not believe in going out of my way to pick a fight and will run from one if i am able.
I do not see the point in fighting other players if there is no profit.
I recognize there is a lot of players that feel differently but i do not see how that makes them right and me wrong.
I am playing well within the rules of the game and having fun.
I do not see that i have to have fun at the expense of others.

Could you explain how I am so wrong and maybe why you seem to feel the need to campaign against me and people like me.
Am I evil?


Well.. in my mind, you aren't doing anything wrong. However, ask yourself this. Why climb a mountain? The answer is usually, because it is there.

So for me... Why shoot at someone minding their own business in high sec? Because they are there.

CCP provides the rewards, it is up to the players to supply the risk.
Some Rando
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#360 - 2012-12-13 21:29:10 UTC
Bud Austrene wrote:
I am having fun mining, doing missions and manufacturing.

All of which inject ISK, materials, or finished goods into the economy, unless you're one of those people who never touch the market. Thus, you affect other players.

Bud Austrene wrote:
I do not see that i have to have fun at the expense of others.

You affect other players, thus you are having fun at their expense. Your goods and ISK factor into the equation, thus you should be free game for all.

CCP has no sense of humour.