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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Reformist Broadcast

Author
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#21 - 2012-12-12 19:15:35 UTC
It's sad the expression "The strong should protect the weak" never caught on in the State, instead replaced by "The strong should weed out the weak". I find the inability and/or refusal for the Chief Executive Panel to modernize the Caldari fascinating. Because the Caldari descend from a harsh planet that demands a survival of the fittest approach, then that is how the Caldari should be governed for the rest of their history. I find that redundant, now that the State owns many different planets with climates that are far more comfortable, never mind the fact that modern technology no longer requires a social selectionist approach.

It is tragic, really, that the Caldari will see the world as "Caldari" and "non-Caldari". Humans are the same, in the end. The Federation was founded on that assumption (read; assumption), but the Caldari megacorporations had different ideas.

Of course, this humanitarian ideal of the strong protecting the weak in the Federation is frequently corrupted by absolutism. Take the Blaqueists, who adopt an Amarr-esque "The strong shall guide the weak", seeing those who have descended from Gallentia as, by some cosmic coincedence, entitled to guide the rest of humanity. Then there's the Rodenites, who also adopt a social selectionist ideal in the context of personal enterprise, and that "The strong will triumph over the weak".

It's all rubbish, in the end. Those with power must use it to shield and protect those without it, not these nonsensical Roden- or Caldari-style philosophies. I hope one day the Chief Executive Panel realizes that they no longer live on Caldari Prime, and that planet is now just one of many. At the same time, those in the Federation must work to eradicate any and all instances of absolutism, if we are to expect all of humanity to realize the relative nature of mankind. I hope the above pledge by Miss Nikulainen makes people aware that no system is perfect.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-12-12 19:43:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
To a Caldari, the morality of what you just wrote seems to be 100% backwards.

You have to remember, we spent centuries as a survivalist culture growing up on a harsh, high-risk planet where stopping to help those who couldn't keep up would likely get the entire tribe frozen to death. Maybe certain ethical instincts were preferentially selected for. All I know is that I read your post in much the same revolted way you might read the idea that women should be confined to the kitchen, naked and pregnant, and should be beaten if they stray outside of it.

We're different cultures for a reason, after all.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Jace Sarice
#23 - 2012-12-12 19:45:58 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
It's sad the expression "The strong should protect the weak" never caught on in the State, instead replaced by "The strong should weed out the weak". I find the inability and/or refusal for the Chief Executive Panel to modernize the Caldari fascinating. Because the Caldari descend from a harsh planet that demands a survival of the fittest approach, then that is how the Caldari should be governed for the rest of their history. I find that redundant, now that the State owns many different planets with climates that are far more comfortable, never mind the fact that modern technology no longer requires a social selectionist approach.

It is tragic, really, that the Caldari will see the world as "Caldari" and "non-Caldari". Humans are the same, in the end. The Federation was founded on that assumption (read; assumption), but the Caldari megacorporations had different ideas.

Of course, this humanitarian ideal of the strong protecting the weak in the Federation is frequently corrupted by absolutism. Take the Blaqueists, who adopt an Amarr-esque "The strong shall guide the weak", seeing those who have descended from Gallentia as, by some cosmic coincedence, entitled to guide the rest of humanity. Then there's the Rodenites, who also adopt a social selectionist ideal in the context of personal enterprise, and that "The strong will triumph over the weak".

It's all rubbish, in the end. Those with power must use it to shield and protect those without it, not these nonsensical Roden- or Caldari-style philosophies. I hope one day the Chief Executive Panel realizes that they no longer live on Caldari Prime, and that planet is now just one of many. At the same time, those in the Federation must work to eradicate any and all instances of absolutism, if we are to expect all of humanity to realize the relative nature of mankind. I hope the above pledge by Miss Nikulainen makes people aware that no system is perfect.



While your attempts at anthropological psychology are amusing, they fail to provide any substantial criticism of our way of life - which works incredibly well. If you prefer to promote relativity and hazily dismiss our way of life based upon a pseudoscientific notion regarding the environmental nature of our homeworld, feel free. We prefer to promote a realistic view of the world that demands results while simultaneously valuing our culture and traditions.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#24 - 2012-12-12 21:18:32 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
I would say there is a reason the disassociated are in the position they are in and that is primarily due to a failure of duty and a breach of either corporate or State law.


As Hakatain-haan and Scherezad have pointed out, there is plenty of other ways to "fall into the cracks" which do not involve failure of duty or violating the law.

One of the most common is probably unemployement, like in any nation.
Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#25 - 2012-12-12 21:53:39 UTC
Burn it down, all of it. The five empires are so rotten the only way to fix them is to destroy them.

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.

Korsavius
Revenent Defence Corperation
#26 - 2012-12-12 22:25:06 UTC
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
Burn it down, all of it. The five empires are so rotten the only way to fix them is to destroy them.


And replace them with what, exactly? Enlighten us all, please. Also, if the fifth empire you're referring to happens to be the Jovians, then I do indeed look forward to you attempting such a feat.

In regards to the original post, my sentiments can be echoed by my colleague, Oniseki-haani. For example, my State citizenship wasn't just handed to me all willy-nilly. I had to earn it (in my case, through service in the military). True, some people may fall into the abyss for reasons beyond their control, but then that is why agencies such as the one Captain Stitcher mentioned exist.

Cold Wind's Blade || Follow the I-RED Newsfeed & visit the I-RED GalNet site!

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#27 - 2012-12-12 23:42:07 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
As Hakatain-haan and Scherezad have pointed out, there is plenty of other ways to "fall into the cracks" which do not involve failure of duty or violating the law.

One of the most common is probably unemployement, like in any nation.


Prior to the rise of Heth-haan to the position of State Executor it is true, many corporations in the State sought to adopt the Gallente style corporate models of maximizing profits at the expense of the rights of workers who were treated as mere commodities like they are in the Federation. However, the issue is well known, and ensuring adequate employment for those who did "fall into the cracks" before is a prime concern of the Caldari Providence Directorate through its Corporate and Labour reform programs.

The real issue as I see it, is that even with the adoption of some institutionally flawed concepts within certain corporations, it is still particularly difficult to fall into the cracks in the State unless one deliberately seeks to do so through their own actions. As such, the concern today is to differentiate between those who should rightfully bear the burdens of their own actions and those who were the victims of institutional flaws.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#28 - 2012-12-13 00:33:05 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
"Caldari enjoy a higher standard of living than of those living in the Amarr Empire, Gallente Federation or Minmatar Republic. I'm proud of this; but we do not all share the same metric of living quality."


Madame Nikulainen.

I would be very interested to see your data set related to the above mentioned quote.

The last time I checked the State economy was on Imperial life support.

Respectfully.
J.S.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#29 - 2012-12-13 00:51:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
James Syagrius wrote:
"Caldari enjoy a higher standard of living than of those living in the Amarr Empire, Gallente Federation or Minmatar Republic. I'm proud of this; but we do not all share the same metric of living quality."


Madame Nikulainen.

I would be very interested to see your data set related to the above mentioned quote.

The last time I checked the State economy was on Imperial life support.



It might have to do with the fact that in comparison the State remains the most urbanized nation in the cluster and even with a greatly smaller population than either the Federation or Empire is still able to match or achieve just below parity economically through the maximization of productivity levels brought about by adherence to strong meritocratic principles and the efficiency of our corporate traditions and doctrines.

As such it's simple economics. We produce more with less people and those people enjoy a higher standard of living on average comparatively than either the Federation, Empire or Republic due to the State system.

Sidenote: As for the State being on "Imperial life support" that is an issue more specific to Kaalakiota due to liquidity issues behind its scrip due to loans and bonds taken in order to finance the war effort. It has nothing to do with the overall health of the State economy.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#30 - 2012-12-13 04:46:41 UTC
Korsavius wrote:
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
Burn it down, all of it. The five empires are so rotten the only way to fix them is to destroy them.


And replace them with what, exactly? Enlighten us all, please. Also, if the fifth empire you're referring to happens to be the Jovians, then I do indeed look forward to you attempting such a feat.



I would replace them with nothing. Turn them into null security systems and let the capsuleers run them as they please. If they are poor at administering their systems, other capsuleers will replace them. Get rid of CONCORD while we're at it. We, capsuleers, are the ultimate power in the Cluster. If justice needs to be administered we will do it. I will probably expand this idea in its own thread, rather than clutter this one.

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#31 - 2012-12-13 08:10:10 UTC
Korsavius wrote:
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
Burn it down, all of it. The five empires are so rotten the only way to fix them is to destroy them.


And replace them with what, exactly? Enlighten us all, please. Also, if the fifth empire you're referring to happens to be the Jovians, then I do indeed look forward to you attempting such a feat.


I believe the 'fifth empire' is what capsuleer outlaws established in wildernes, known as null-sec regions.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-12-13 08:33:58 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
It's sad the expression "The strong should protect the weak" never caught on in the State, instead replaced by "The strong should weed out the weak". I find the inability and/or refusal for the Chief Executive Panel to modernize the Caldari fascinating. Because the Caldari descend from a harsh planet that demands a survival of the fittest approach, then that is how the Caldari should be governed for the rest of their history. I find that redundant, now that the State owns many different planets with climates that are far more comfortable, never mind the fact that modern technology no longer requires a social selectionist approach.

Survival of the fittest always work. While you tend your weaklings and absorb others from outside, you all become weaker.
Yes, we don't tend them. But we provide means for them to become stronger. And if they fail or don't want to become stronger, only then we weed them out.

Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:

It is tragic, really, that the Caldari will see the world as "Caldari" and "non-Caldari". Humans are the same, in the end. The Federation was founded on that assumption (read; assumption), but the Caldari megacorporations had different ideas.

Humans are NOT the same. Not in the start, not in the end. It is biology. It is science. It is how things were made and how they work. I think I had quite long discussion of this topic with someone else, and I don't really want to start it all over again. If the Federal educational system didn't tell you about genetics, you can always get this information somewhere else, luckily, it is widely available. But please, please, don't tell again that humans are the same.

Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:

Of course, this humanitarian ideal of the strong protecting the weak in the Federation is frequently corrupted by absolutism. Take the Blaqueists, who adopt an Amarr-esque "The strong shall guide the weak", seeing those who have descended from Gallentia as, by some cosmic coincedence, entitled to guide the rest of humanity. Then there's the Rodenites, who also adopt a social selectionist ideal in the context of personal enterprise, and that "The strong will triumph over the weak".

Are gallenteans obsessed with weak, or I misunderstand something?

Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
It's all rubbish, in the end. Those with power must use it to shield and protect those without it, not these nonsensical Roden- or Caldari-style philosophies. I hope one day the Chief Executive Panel realizes that they no longer live on Caldari Prime, and that planet is now just one of many. At the same time, those in the Federation must work to eradicate any and all instances of absolutism, if we are to expect all of humanity to realize the relative nature of mankind. I hope the above pledge by Miss Nikulainen makes people aware that no system is perfect.

The rubbish is using power to shield those who are weak. By doing this you stimulate their weakness and give them no desire to grow.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Jace Sarice
#33 - 2012-12-13 13:41:08 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
"Caldari enjoy a higher standard of living than of those living in the Amarr Empire, Gallente Federation or Minmatar Republic. I'm proud of this; but we do not all share the same metric of living quality."


Madame Nikulainen.

I would be very interested to see your data set related to the above mentioned quote.

The last time I checked the State economy was on Imperial life support.

Respectfully.
J.S.


There is well known and easily found data regarding her claim. I suggest you check more frequently.
Bataav
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#34 - 2012-12-13 14:47:24 UTC
While Inhonores may be "fascinated" by the Caldari adherance to an approach and cultural foundation that works for them, regardless of the fact they are no longer bound by the environmental circumstances that demanded and inspired them, I am fascinated by the apparent disparity and contradictions in his responses above.

He appears to acknowledge the principle falicy followed by some in the Federation. The acceptance of:
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
...those who have descended from Gallentia as, by some cosmic coincedence, entitled to guide the rest of humanity.
He is correct. They are not so entitled.

Why then does he play to this Gallente stereotype? Why does he invoke the archetypical "Federal meddler" and declare:
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Those with power must use it to shield and protect those without it, not these nonsensical... ...Caldari-style philosophies.
Humans are animals just as any other, and the basic laws of nature still apply, regardless of the technological conveniences and comforts we provide for ourselves. As capsuleers we understand the concept of "survival of the fittest" rings true, whether in open conflict, competing for industrial resources or trading on the market.

I have no doubt that while those who champion the Caldari model would claim their society serves them well, others who favour an alternative approach would say the same.

Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
...no system is perfect.
Then I suggest it is inappropriate for Inhonores or I, or anyone else on the outside, to seek to impose our influence on that of the Caldari.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#35 - 2012-12-13 16:03:00 UTC
Those who define the Caldari model as "Survival of the Fittest" and leave it there simply don't understand our model, I'm afraid.
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#36 - 2012-12-13 16:43:20 UTC
No. "The strong should protect the weak" is not Gallente just because the Gallenteans adopt it. It is, or at least should be, a human universal, an acknowledgement that human systems and structures either actively or passively prevent everyone from attaining 'strong' status. Even then, strength is relative. The weak are simply those who do not abide by the strong's standard.

The State treatment of who the system deems as "non-Caldari" in their borders is simply a display of institutionalized dark age tribalism. Apparently, miss Nikulainen is the only Caldari capsuleer here who is capable of acknowledging that your system is flawed. The rest of you blindly try to redirect criticisms. I appreciate "free" speech is not a thing in the State, but for goddess sake, you're capsuleers now. Show some backbone.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#37 - 2012-12-13 16:58:48 UTC
You guys should know better than to enter one of these kinds of threads and waste your breath. They always degenerate into jingoistic, xenophobic "Caldari are the best!" troll-fests.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#38 - 2012-12-13 17:05:19 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
No. "The strong should protect the weak" is not Gallente just because the Gallenteans adopt it. It is, or at least should be, a human universal. . ..


Why?

Not saying if I disagree or agree with you here, but this requires extrapolation.
Solarienne
Hrimdraugar
#39 - 2012-12-13 17:23:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Solarienne
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
No. "The strong should protect the weak" is not Gallente just because the Gallenteans adopt it. It is, or at least should be, a human universal, an acknowledgement that human systems and structures either actively or passively prevent everyone from attaining 'strong' status. Even then, strength is relative. The weak are simply those who do not abide by the strong's standard.

The State treatment of who the system deems as "non-Caldari" in their borders is simply a display of institutionalized dark age tribalism. Apparently, miss Nikulainen is the only Caldari capsuleer here who is capable of acknowledging that your system is flawed. The rest of you blindly try to redirect criticisms. I appreciate "free" speech is not a thing in the State, but for goddess sake, you're capsuleers now. Show some backbone.



I like the part where you suggest that by kowtowing to your way of thinking we'd be 'displaying backbone'. Also your abstract envisioning of 'human universals' is laughable wordplay at best, detrimental delusion at worst. Just as Caldari values do not apply, both in treatment and in restriction of personal freedoms in the name of cultural and socio-economic strength, to outsiders, your presupposition of a 'universal standard' does not apply to us - or any others who choose to reject such a foolish notion as 'every man equal'. We are our actions, contributions and recognized deeds. Every child is a productive citizen in development, every disassociated adult the result of failing to seize upon the chances presented to them. To suggest that everyone is bound to some ephemeral 'universal standard' does a great disservice to those who strive to advance themselves within society, any society.

As for your statement, Rella, I'd have to say that you are very wrong about your summary of the content of this thread. The Caldari here are stating that they are Caldari. Value judgments on that are up to the observer. Though your recent penchant for empty one liners leads me to believe that this little factoid will be lost on you.

PY-RE Combat Pilot

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#40 - 2012-12-13 17:31:53 UTC
Universal Human Values. Aren't.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.