Ships & Modules

Having flown all 4 racial variants of the logistics ships I was kinda surprised to find one of them particularly disadvantaged in terms of fleet combat usability. The Oneiros...

Low power grid & Low buffer issues:

All other logistics can fit at least 4 LARGE logistics high slot modules, be it shield transfers, or armor reps + energy transfers, along with at least 1 large EHP buffer extender such as a 1600mm plate for Guardian or LSE for Basi and Scimi:

Guardian: 3 Large RAR + 1 Medium RAR + 2 Large Energy Trans = 5L + 1M High slot logistics mods.

Basilisk: 4 Large shield transfers + 2 Large energy = 6L High slot logistics mods.

Scimitar: 4 Large shield transfers = 4L High slot logistics mods.

Oneiros: 3 Large RAR + 1 Medium RAR = 3L + 1M High slot logistics mods.

TLDR Summary - Oneiros has the lowest remote buffer augmentation capacity of all logistics ships in the game due to insufficient power grid. To be fair, I have to acknowledge it has a drone bay capable of hosting 5 medium drones, but from all the large fleet engagements I've been in, logistics drones are useless because of the reaction time plus you have to be on top of your repair targets. In most fleets logistic groups are separated from the DPS fleet and follow their own anchors, thus rendering logistics drones highly inefficient.

That issue aside, EHP armor buffer of a cookie cutter fleet setup Guardian is 50k+.
The best you can get to on an Oneiros with a similar setup is 40k, that's about 20% EHP advantage. That combined with a 14% larger than Guardian's signature radius makes Oneiros a true bastard child of the logistics family :(

Any thoughts?

I know for a fact that I've seen many Oneiros' with four 'Solace' remote reppers and a 1600mm plate. They just have to use two ACR II rigs and/or a 'Bailey' plate to get that config. When I FC I won't accept any other configuration, as the 800mm plate version is too squishy.

4× Large 'Solace' + 1600mm plates means you've taken up 1.3 of your 1.0 GW power grid… and you have no prop mod, no cap booster, and you need to sacrifice one or two of your remaining three low slots to RCUs (depending on how many ACR rigs you want to use) to even begin to make the whole thing fit, which leaves you with pretty darn lousy resists…

…so I'm suspecting that you're not talking about large reppers in this case.

guardian gets FOUR large reps and 2 large energy transfers.
unless youre doing it wrong.

Only to fool my enemies into thinking we are more nooby than we actually are.

that is decidely NOT a fleet fit Guardian. With logi 4/5 you can do 4/2 large meta four like the rest of EVE

You know what happens to a lot of logi pilots? They get jammed. The guardian has room for 1 ECCM mod assuming you want an AB and a full low tank. So...how do you get more sensor strength out of a guardian?

Put one of these in for every two guardians:

[Oneiros, .....]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

10MN Afterburner II
Conjunctive Magnetometric ECCM Scanning Array I
Conjunctive Magnetometric ECCM Scanning Array I
Phased Muon ECCM Caster I
Phased Muon ECCM Caster I

Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II

It still has the EHP disadvantage, but you can run it in a group with Logi 4 + Logi 5 Guardians (Logi V Guardian transfers 2x to Logi IV Guardian, Logi IV Guardian transfers 1x to Logi V Guardian and 1x to logi 4/5 Oneiros) Actually, a logi I onieros can fit in a group of logi V guardians for hilarity. Anyways, this Onieros puts a remote ECCM mod on each of his buddies. Because of the drone bonus, the Onieros also reps more.

Sensor Strength Onieros: 71.9
Sensor Strength Guardian: 76.7
Old Guardian: 37.2

This ^^^^^

The rest of the posts so far just kinda re-enforce every point that I have made in the OP. Just because you CAN put a funny unusable fit together in EFT it doesn't invalidate the issues I brought up. It is squishy, it lacks PG to be equal to other races logis. Can you bring it to a fleet fight, sure you can, purely for the LOL factor and to go up in flames first...

No cap regen... did you read the post? It relies on receiving cap from guardians (Guardians that have a free cap transfer; many guardians run 2x transfers despite having logi V for various reasons (you can argue that they would have 5 reps on each guardian, but, for the most part, they would not)). On top of that, we have been in situations where we had to fit 2x ECCM on guardians, which meant we were doing it without ABs on them (to be fair, there were only like 9 of us). The guardians would not have been able to keep up under the two (full amarr jammer) scorps (to be fair, this fight involved much in the way of each side scouting eachother, with the other side being plain terrible with their carrier's fit). In this situation, the big danger was clearly not losing the guardians (sitting on a wh with rather questionable (dread+raven/tempest, it was an odd fight) DPS on the opposing side), but losing battleships (that had to burn off of the wormhole to shoot said carrier) not receiving reps.

Consider also a POS bash in w-space. Your dread fleet (of two or three) may take an hour+ to reinforce a POS, and you want your support fleet on grid incapping mods, add some dps to the pos bash, and keeping the enemy from leaving the pos to do repulsive things to your shiny dread fleet. I can tell you, being a Guardian when they have ECM modules (usually a large portion of jammers are amarr, if only because of guardian + no ammo ships, even moreso after they see guardians on grid) on the pos is a *****. Doubling the sensor strength vastly reduces the amount of times your guardians are jammed.

And, most of the time, someone cannot fly a guardian (but can fly an oneiros for some reason, probably a thanatos pilot who trained for triage, I was there once) and someone else is bitching about how you need more logi. The fit above provides more logi and less time jammed.

The price is actually low compared to some of the guardians I have flown (and the price of that oneiros is not an issue for those of us in w-space). Most guardians used in w-space run the 2x ACR IIs so they can fit a full low tank w/ 1600mm along with meta 4 high slots.

Actually, the first Onieros I used was to rep the tank in a 10/10, though it was kinda overkill anyway.

Anyway, not saying that the onieros is on par with any of the other logi, but there are uses for it. Being able to fly a Guardian now, I would never touch an Onieros again...which does prove the point of the thread.

That's the biggest issue, logistics for logistics. But just like any other race, bring ten of them and spider tank, they all win.

Why your 20 drake gangs I see so often in null have 4 or 5 Scimis and no Basilisk?

Why your small roaming armor gangs have Guardians and no Oneiros?

There must be a reason, and a serious one when you fight.

Now if you ask me if the Oneiros can do some stuff I'd say yes, behind the station in Dodixie at 60km from undock and with alt remoting the Oneiros.

So, what's the point of using Oneiros vs Guardians?